@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: @Tigger [quote] Tigger wrote: ... There was no reason to license more hardware. ... Then there might be no reason for any of us to be/stay here...

??? Did you actually read what I wrote?
...

[/quote]

Yessir!
You wrote (besides others):

Quote:

Tigger wrote: ... There was no reason to license more hardware. ...

That was the part I had something to reply to - namely that without any hardware to run any Amiga OS on I see no sense in being here.
That's it.

The rest of the babbling was irrelevant to me.

I will see the outcome of the legal quarrels between AInc and Hyperion when there is the final decision - I feel no need to be dragged into endless and meritless discussions by you about a subject (US law) I don't have the slightest clue about.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga ... Noone was interested in other hardware until 2 years after the 2003 contract when the A1's dryed up. ...

That's not true!
I was interested in other hardware.
I was waiting for a bug-free hardware with an better price/performance ratio with an finalized OS4.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

I was waiting for a bug-free hardware with an better price/performance ratio with an finalized OS4.

And Shattout on the whole shooting match as a consequence

@The_Bunyip

Quote:

The_Bunyip wrote: @Dandy Quote: I was waiting for a bug-free hardware with an better price/performance ratio with an finalized OS4. And Shattout on the whole shooting match as a consequence

I have no idea what you mean with "Shattout" - please keep in mind that I'm no native English speaker...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @The_Bunyip Quote: The_Bunyip wrote: @Dandy [quote] I was waiting for a bug-free hardware with an better price/performance ratio with an finalized OS4. And Shattout on the whole shooting match as a consequence

Quote:

I have no idea what you mean with "Shattout" - please keep in mind that I'm no native English speaker...

I think it is a rude way of saying missed out.

Last edited by Swoop on 07-Aug-2007 at 11:01 AM.

_________________
Peter Swallow.
A1XEG3-800 [IBM 750FX PowerPC], running OS4.1FE, using ac97 onboard sound.

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't."

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: fairlanefastback wrote: Thats not them providing the code formally to Hyperion. Its not them providing any code to Hyperion. Lous point is that because AI didnt provide the code to Hyperion, Hyperion owns the IP. Lous point is wrong legally, do you agree or disagree? Quote: [quote] If Fleecy had the source code why was it not handed over? Because Olafs version is superior. Quote: Let alone the fact that the contract called for 3.5 and 3.9 source as well (also not handed over we are told). The point is that your assertion that Amiga formally handed over code to Hyperion is false. Even if they "could have provided the (3.1) code" thats not them doing it. First of all the entire source thing is a non-issue after April 24, 2003. At that point Hyperion agreed to sell the OS to Itec for $25K. They should have increased the price to cover Olafs costs and other costs of acquiring OS pieces, but they didnt, they signed the 2003 contract (which is the subject of this thread) and they got paid $25K, and they didnt deliver. Unless you honestly want to argue (as Lou does) that Olaf giving the code to Hyperion means Hyperion owns the Amiga OS IP, this is really a non-issue, and even if Hyperion owned the IP, they still have to deliver it to Itec PER THE 2003 CONTRACT which is the subject of this thread. Quote: You like to point out what the obligations of Hyperion are in contracts, well its a two way street. And again, lets not forget the required 3.5 and 3.9 sources, did they also have those and withhold them too? Regardless of whether they had them, did not have them, whatever, they did not *provide* them and thats what they needed to do as per the contract. Again, nothing in the 2003 contract between Itec and Hyperion involves the source code. If Hyperion had issues with the way AI(W) did business with them (not supplying code, having to talk to Fleecy, etc) then they needed to address that in the 2003 contract when they sold the OS, not selling the OS there and then over 4 years later still havent delivered it and not willing to give it to them. Thats the subject here, the Itec-Hyperion contract. You guys like to go on and on about how AI are the bad guys, where were you all in 2003 and 2004 when we actually could have done something about that, marching behind MikeB and calling me and TBone and everyone else FUDmasters, etc because we said AI was kicked out of there offices, and had lost lawsuits, etc. Now you think those things are important. -Tig

You also miss my other point that since they sold the contract to KMOS, they have no right to sue or to continue to try to pay for the OS that they don't have a right to since they SOLD that right.

This case is a dead issue.

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: Hyperion has spent 7 years and received nothing that can compensate for the work that has been done on AmigaOS4. No, they have not. We are coming close to 6 years since the start of the project now, not seven. And given the results, one may be tempted to assume that there were extended periods during those six years when "Hyperion" (or rather, the subcontractors who actually do the mostly unpaid work) were busy doing things that put food on the table, and the heating going. Because the whole project certainly does not look like about 180 man-years worth of programming, nor do the Frieden parts look like 12 man-years of full-time work. And lust but not least, Hyperion (this time it *is* the company) received around 60,000 Euros (seeing as it sold "more or less 1,000" cpies of OS4, mostly at the price of 59 Euros excl VAT). Hyperion is likely to also have taken a cut off the thousand-dollar-a-day Arctic contract before passing things on to the subcontractors (i.e. the Friedens). And then there was that aerospace contract for OS4-sourced technology. Not to mention around $40,000 from Itec and KMOS. On the other hand, Hyperion (the company) has done very little. Worse, there is rather little evidence that Hyperion, the company, has actually spent any significant amount of money on this project. We pretty much know that the Friedens haven't been paid their phantasy price (and thus retain their IP ownership); Given their importance to Hyperion, it is likely that they were indeed paid the 10 Euro per OS4 binary, though. Also, it is likely that Olaf was actually paid before releasing the OS3.1 sources (judging by Olaf's email which essentially said "Oi! You Amiga Inc lot! You haven't paid me, so no, I am not handing over these sources to anyone!"). Add a few flights for staff and subcontractors, and the cost for the fancy pressing/packaging of the original pre-release, and you may be somewhere around 30,000 Euro. But that's about it for documented actual expenses for Hyperion, the company. Scary as it may sound, poor little Hyperion might very well have made a profit on the OS4 project so far.

But if it's truely Amiga Inc.'s IP then what right did Olaf have in not handing it over or face ... oh, I don't know ... a lawsuit?

It seems OS development for 3.1 was contracted to people like Olaf. Commodore just stamped it's logo on it. So who owns the OS...is it the OS that is owned or the trademarks and logos that go on the package and on the screen that is owned? Once you start to understand that, then you realize all Amiga Inc.(W) owned is names and logos. They owned no technology. It was all contracted out. They didn't pay H&P for the actual source to 3.5 and 3.9, they just wanted their licensing fees for use of the logos when H&P actually published a product.

Amiga Inc., since Amino became owners, has been nothing but a leech company.

...

Infact, can you give us a rundown of why Amithlon was (supposedly) illegally being sold by H&P? Can you tell us why you couldn't sell your own product?

Last edited by Lou on 07-Aug-2007 at 01:09 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

Infact, can you give us a rundown of why Amithlon was (supposedly) illegally being sold by H&P? Can you tell us why you couldn't sell your own product?

Iirc and i may be wrong, they were using the Kickstarts ?

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@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: But if it's truely Amiga Inc.'s IP then what right did Olaf have in not handing it over or face ... oh, I don't know ... a lawsuit?

Olaf didnt have to give his work away for free, he just could only sell it to AI or someone they approved him selling it to, ie Hyperoin. Hyperion was paying for his work, read his contract, it completely says that they are paying Olaf for the hours he worked on the OS, and nothing more.

Quote:

It seems OS development for 3.1 was contracted to people like Olaf. Commodore just stamped it's logo on it.

No, Olaf took the 3.1 code which Commodore completed in 93 and cleaned it up so it didn't need so many compilers he also converted some of the assembly code to C. He didnt own any of it, he was owed for his hours of work if anyone wanted the code from him.

Quote:

So who owns the OS...is it the OS that is owned or the trademarks and logos that go on the package and on the screen that is owned?

All of it.

Quote:

Once you start to understand that, then you realize all Amiga Inc.(W) owned is names and logos. They owned no technology. It was all contracted out. They didn't pay H&P for the actual source to 3.5 and 3.9, they just wanted their licensing fees for use of the logos when H&P actually published a product.

Again Lou, AI owned 3.1, how much of 3.5 and 3.9 they owned is a big fight that has been going on since H&P did 3.5.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: You also miss my other point that since they sold the contract to KMOS, they have no right to sue or to continue to try to pay for the OS that they don't have a right to since they SOLD that right. This case is a dead issue.

Actually they do Lou for two reasons.

1) Because Hyperion says the KMOS doesnt own the contract because they didnt agree to the transfer, that means that Itec owns the contract and has every right to see it carried out.
Hyperion and others seem to believe that there is a condition where noone owns the contract, where they can say we didnt agree to this transfer or that transfer and eventually noone will own it and they won't have to honor it, thats not correct in US Law, someone owns the contract, Hyperion will have to honor it.

2) Itec is following due diligence and corporate responsibility to prevent a lawsuit being filed against themselves (by KMOS) by attempting to recover the OS which they have sold to KMOS and so far has not been delivered. Arrow Electronics has done this for parts for us on more then one occasion as I said previously.
-Tig

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@Dandy

You still are missing the point.

1993 - Itec buys the OS from Hyperion

1993-1995 - First Itec then KMOS try repeatedly to get Hyperion to deliver what they have bought

Mid-1995 - AmigaOnes run out, Hyperion says we need new hardware, KMOS says where is our OS.

Why exactly should KMOS have given Hyperion need hardware to help them out when they are years late finishing the OS and won't deliver the OS to KMOS despite being paid for it?

-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

I don't know about some people here, but I am really looking forward to the end of this legal matter, I am tired of seeing the community divided into different camps and tired of reading some people's undying devotion to a company or three that really doesn't deserve such loyalty considering the aftermath of it's path of business and what it's really doing to the community at large.

Can't we all just get along!

Are you like me? Are you tired of reading the continuing debate over court details from people who are armchair quarterbacking (not saying anyone specifically here), and would rather wait till the judge/jury decides these matters.. That's the only opinion that really matters in the end anyway.

Writing something here isn't going to influence someone else opinion, if they are a different one from you and there are many opinions here.

Am I the only one that feels that this is getting devicive enough that it's causing people to leave the community, even those here with PRO-Amiga Inc. sentiment?

I am tired of the "I know more than you" stuff and I bet others are too..

Again can't we all just get along? We are all here for the same reason I hope and it's not to argue about the business, they have lawyers for that anyway.. We need to stay together as a community, and people need to think about the consequences of saying stuff even on here, let's not loose more people.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy You still are missing the point. 1993 - Itec buys the OS from Hyperion 1993-1995 - First Itec then KMOS try repeatedly to get Hyperion to deliver what they have bought Mid-1995 - AmigaOnes run out, Hyperion says we need new hardware, KMOS says where is our OS. Why exactly should KMOS have given Hyperion need hardware to help them out when they are years late finishing the OS and won't deliver the OS to KMOS despite being paid for it? -Tig

+10 to every year mentioned above.

I think with all the circles you've been doing in these lawsuit threads that you have just better focus on the Efika AROS port... Hey would you consider a Gamecube/Wii homebrew port?

Last edited by Lou on 07-Aug-2007 at 03:04 PM.

@Tigger


Quote:

1993 - Itec buys the OS from Hyperion

What type calendar are you using?

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@Tigger

[Quote:

Why exactly should KMOS have given Hyperion need hardware to help them out when they are years late finishing the OS and won't deliver the OS to KMOS despite being paid for it?

This just shows how presumptuous Amiga Inc is, first they do not deliver the source codes, and then they expect Hyperion to finish on time whit buggy hardware?

Hyperion is forced to pay a developer for source code Amiga Inc should have delivered for free, after spending time waiting on Amiga Inc to deliver in the first place.

Let’s not forget every one in the community latterly screaming for hardware to buy for years, in 2005 Amiga Inc did not own a large development firm in India, what Amiga Inc was going to do whit sources and binary when they did not have any one to maintain or adapt to new hardware.

Amiga Inc does not care that Hyperion did not earn any thing on the AmigaOS4 development, Amiga Inc does not care for the work developers have done on it, they don’t even care if there where bugs left to cleanup, I can’t see how Amiga Inc is right for the Amiga customers, I hope Hyperion wins whit all my heart.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: NutsAboutAmiga wrote: So it makes sense to become enemies whit every one they worked whit? It seems thats how Hyperion works, so maybe AI learned it from them. Again, why should AI help a company that is over 2 years late delivering a product they purchased from them? -Tig

Hyperion has worked whit this companies

Hyperion partners
* Monolith (www.lith.com)
* SciTech Software
* Smiths Aerospace
* Eyetech
* Amiga Inc

And ”ID Software”, ”Activision” for games like Heretic 2 and Quake 2, in all this time I don’t remember one single lawsuit against Hyperion whit there partners, whit the exception of Amiga Inc that is.

Amiga Inc on the other head worked whit this companies, 3 out of 5 has ended in some kind of legal dispute or argument whit partners.

Amiga Inc partners:
* Tao group
* Microsoft
* H&P
* Bplan / Genesi
* Hyperion

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: [quote] In all this time I don’t remember one single lawsuit against Hyperion whit there partners, whit the exception of Amiga Inc that is.

You need to remember better then. Gorky 17 and Epic ring a bell to you? The whole Quake 2 mess? I'm not saying AI is any better, I'm not a big fan of them either, but this Hyperion is a great company mantra doesnt have alot to do with reality.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Lou

Quote:

But if it's truely Amiga Inc.'s IP then what right did Olaf have in not handing it over or face ... oh, I don't know ... a lawsuit?

For the same reason I can buy a Windows XP CD and license at the local computer shop --- the IP owner (here Microsoft, there Amiga Inc) had authorised the third party (here the local computer shop, there Olaf) to provide the second party (here me, there Hyperion) with the IP.

Quote:

Infact, can you give us a rundown of why Amithlon was (supposedly) illegally being sold by H&P?

I take it you are interested in why H&P selling it was illegal, rather than why H&P was selling it in the first place?

Well, it's quite simple. Amithlon contained OS 3.9, as well as Kickstart 3.1. And while H&P *might* have had authorisation to distribute OS3.9 (the matter has been debated hotly at times), both Amiga Inc and Juergen Haage agree that H&P had no authorisation to distribute Kickstart 3.1. Juergen Haage will then go on and tell a tragic story of how Amiga Inc changed the conditions on them at the last minute (which may very well be true), and how H&P are really the victims here (which I fail to see --- instead of having a contract requiring license payments for the AI IP, H&P simply distributed it anyway, and added the license payments to their own profit margin... I'd like to be victimised like that sometime...), but in the end it all comes down to H&P distributing AI's IP without authorisation to do so.
As a consequence, when I found out about it, I de-authorised the distribution of *my* IP (which was specifically anticipated and allowed in the contract for just such a scenario), after which point H&P continued to distribute both AI's and my IP without any legal justification to do so.

Now, as to selling Umilator --- I believe that would have been perfectly legal. I had all the required licenses, from AI and from the P96 crowd, as well as from Bernd Schmidt. However, something being legal does not protect that something from harrassment, slander and persecution. During the second half of 2002, it got to the point where anyone who publicly stated that they had talked to me (not "agreed to partner with me", not "taken my side in a discussion", but merely mentioned having a conversation) was pretty much guaranteed an angry and abusive phone call (or three....) from Harald Frank; And unless people were willing to simply hang up on him (Thumbs up to Scott for that one!), these calls could easily take hours. Meanwhile, H&P clearly stated their intention of threatening any dealer who might consider selling the thing with an expensive injunction; I had my mobile phone faxed at 3am (and fax machines are remarkably persistent when calling a non-fax number....).
If it was just me, I might have toughed it out. I am stubborn that way, and am willing to take a lot of punishment to make someone not get away with crap like that. However, it couldn't be just me. I needed the cooperation of others, who would have been exposed to the same kind of abuse, but who (a) had little to gain from taking it, and (b) had only my word for it that the side they were taking was the correct and legit one. When it got to the point where I actually told people *not* to deal with me because I simply couldn't justify to myself to drag them into it, I knew that it was time to quit.

Of course, throughout all this dear McBill kept promising that proceedings against H&P were imminent, or had actually been filed, or were going to be filed within the week.... Which, if it ever happened, would have helped tremendously. But this being Amiga Inc, as always absolutely nothing happened. H&P kept selling, AI kept saying "no comment", and I ended up looking like an idiot.

Which only goes to show that I have no love whatsoever for AI or McBill; I wish for their past misdeeds to catch up with them and for them to get their deserved rewards. Nonetheless, I believe that in the current legal dispute(s), the AI/Itec/KMOS/AI side is in the much better position, and unless they manage to actively screw it up (which would only be par for the course...), Hyperion is in rather desperate trouble.

Last edited by umisef on 07-Aug-2007 at 04:05 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: This just shows how presumptuous Amiga Inc is, first they do not deliver the source codes, and then they expect Hyperion to finish on time whit buggy hardware?

NAA, they had all the code within a month or so of signing the contract, blaming the code one a 4.5 year delay is a little silly, if they delivered anywhere in 2002, that would have been a good reason, when you finish years late, blaming it took an extra month to get the source code doesnt make alot of sense. As for buggy hardware, first of all the OS was supposed to be written on PPC boards in classic amigas, because the hardware wasnt going to be done, and Hyperion picked Eyetech to be there partner, why should AI be blamed because there partner was incompetant.

Quote:

Hyperion is forced to pay a developer for source code Amiga Inc should have delivered for free, after spending time waiting on Amiga Inc to deliver in the first place.

As the court documents clearly point out, they got the code from Olaf 1 month after the original contract was signed, I'm sorry, but you can't blame a 4.5 year delay in finishing the OS on a 1 month delay in getting the source code, surely you realize that?

Quote:

Amiga Inc does not care that Hyperion did not earn any thing on the AmigaOS4 development, Amiga Inc does not care for the work developers have done on it, they don’t even care if there where bugs left to cleanup, I can’t see how Amiga Inc is right for the Amiga customers, I hope Hyperion wins whit all my heart.

AI is not supposed to care about whether Hyperion made money, thats not there job. AI wants Hyperion to deliver the OS as they said they would. AI has as many developers as Hyperion (ie 0). Nothing would prevent AI from hiring programmers just the way Hyperion did, and I am sorry, but neither Ben nor Evert bring anything to this effort that will be lost if they are gone.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: I think with all the circles you've been doing in these lawsuit threads that you have just better focus on the Efika AROS port... Hey would you consider a Gamecube/Wii homebrew port?

I am so tired of people telling me to focus on the Efika AROS port, I am truly beginning to wish I hadnt offered to do it. First of all, I cannot work on the Efika port at work because

1) The board hasnt arrived
2) If that board had arrived it wouldnt be here in my lab
3) Most important for the AROS crowd, my employer would own the work if I did it here, which is contrary to the entire purpose of the Open Source OS.

-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.