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      /  MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
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BigGun 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 13-Jan-2008 22:44:33
#41 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

Quote:

As i see it MiniMig is an development Platform, nobody who has an A1200 with a 030 in it would go back to it. But i can imagine these people upgrading to a 060/CF equipped AGA+ system that would let them play mp3 in real 16 bit and supports 24 Bit scandoubled screenmodes without add on hardware.


I think the Minimig is very nice cool idea.
A new A500 redone - even for a good affordable price.
People liking the minimig should buy one.


The Natami goes into another direction.
The Natami is not only for playing AGA-games, its also for people wanting to use the original AMIGA for medium serious computing uses. As Reading email, surfing the Internet, burning DVDs, playing MP3, etc.
While being an Amiga it comes with features of todays bigger and faster computer system as Truecolor, Hi resolution, High quality sound, Ethernet, USB, Access to cheap but fast memory and storage etc. So you can do with it everything and even more than what you can do with an upgraded A4000.

Of course an 68k or Coldfire system can never have the CPU power of todays x86 CPUs - This is clear!
Well, I for myself, I've got a Pegasos, CELL, x86 Athlon and Duocore system here. Not to forget the cute EFIKA !
I like all these systems, but having seen how quickly the Natami did load the Workbench -
I have too say : that is was many times faster booting than my fastest x86 system can.

Seeing this new but still original system booting the Workbench somehow touched me deeply.
In a very nice way Thomas has build a system that can just naturally run the old tools and programs.
While being a real Amig, the Natami has new powerfull features.
The IDE controller is faster than the original controller was - but the original Amiga Kickstart can use the IDE controller just normally.
The new blitter is much faster than the original blitter was but Amiga OS can use it just naturally.
The TRUECOLOR mode is not an extra GFX card - No you open these modes just like the other orignal modes were used with the "normal" DFFxxx Amiga registers.
And the copper can fully work with those modes too!
You can drag these new screen modes down just naturally.
Even the USB Keyboard and Mouse information will be backtranslated into the original AMIGA registers. So if a game or applicaiotn is waiting for bits set in a keyboard CIA or Bit7 in $BFE001 - it will just get this information from the AMIGA/USB device.
And the original Blitter can be used not only to blit planar planes but also for copying chunky and truecolor screens.
And of course the 16bit sound uses the same old Paula registers.

In this way the Natami is build was a fully natural upgrade or evolution of the orginal Amiga design.
I can see that it was done with great love to the detail.
The new features are natural integrated into the system.
In many ways the Natami feels more Amiga than many Amiga upgade cards were build.
I think the Natami is done very much like the original Amiga designers would have done the A4000 successors.

Yes, this system IS AN AMIGA !!
Its not comparable with x86 HW in performance - but having seen how fast the system is today I think it has enough performance to be useable.

I think the system is somewhat for dreamers that want to feeling of using the original like the original was. People that want to load original Amiga disks in their new system (Which it can of course)

I know that this system is raw CPU performance wise much less powerfull than my current systems are but I know as well that I will still love it.
Thomas told me how he wants to set up the new CHIP-mem (using VERY fast memory)
So I know that in some parts of the new system will actually be very fast too.

Anyway - if you want a system to play Windows games or to encode DIVX movies then this system is certainly not for you.

I'm sure that adding a CPU card into the system will be a no-brainer for Thomas.
As I know that Thomas works as developer for the company that has invented the PowerPC.

I for myself I'm looking forward to have an 060/Coldfire version of this machine first.
To be honest somewhat because I miss the beauty of the 68k ASM code.
And because I think it feels right to me that way -
Maybe you need to see the system to feel the same, I don't know.

If you don't feel like me, don't worry - my wife too things that I'm crazy

Cheers

[edit typo]

Last edited by BigGun on 13-Jan-2008 at 11:00 PM.
Last edited by BigGun on 13-Jan-2008 at 10:57 PM.

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winnetcom 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 13-Jan-2008 23:09:32
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Jun-2004
Posts: 162
From: Burbank, CA. ....... Here every day

@BigGun

Thanks Very Much for all the info about this new Amiga HW that is in development. It does sound like a true NG Amiga, not by todays standards but thats OK. Alot of time has passed and it will take a while for SW to catch up either way (OS4+). Sounds like Thomas is trying to continue where CBM stopped. I still think custom chips and HW are not a Bad thing and is whats needed to be unique from modern standard x86 systems no matter how many cores etc. Not really trying to compete there.

You think this system could ever run Killer App expansions like Toaster or VLM ?.

Thanks again.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 4:11:59
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2108
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@BigGun

I think a guy could replace his classics in style with a machine like this one! I hope that the next generation is even better!

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Rob 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 5:53:52
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5806
From: S.Wales

@BigGun

I think that Thomas should get into contact with Elbox.

The Dragon with NatAmi on a daughter card would make the ideal new Amiga. Add in a SharkPPC and you have a brand new G4 Amiga with an enhanced version of the AGA chipset.

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Donar 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 7:30:50
#45 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Germany

@BigGun

Well said BigGun. That is exactly what i think (see the last part of my signature). I have an 3Ghz Core2Duo at home, but somehow i really like how my A1200 works.

Has Thomas ever contacted Individual Computers? Jens said his Clone-A would be open enough to run e.g. the MiniMig and should have all kind of interfaces for expansion . Maybe the FPGA on it will be enough to hold the NatAmi.

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Looking for:
A1200/CF CFV4/@200,256MB,eAGA,SATA,120GB,AROS

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Raffaele 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 10:44:17
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1852
From: Naples, Italy

@BigGun

You said about NatAmi:

Quote:


Anyway - if you want a system to play Windows games or to encode DIVX movies then this system is certainly not for you.



Well... Natami development card it is built around C=One and C=ONe could also run Windows CE...

If Thomas will keep the same base characteristics of C=One then people ould switch between Amiga environment and Windows environment with a click of the mouse...

Sure it will be only a reduced version of Windows with limited software...

But sure you could have both systems in the same machine... Oh boy, Oh boy!


Well... I understood fom your words and from Thomas site that he will re-implement the NatAmi from scratch on a new motherboard...

He need to put NatAMI on a brand new and completely re-designed board because C=ONE it is proprietary design of Jei Ellsworth.

But I hope that also the new motherboard of NatAmi could run Windows CE too...

Also, if Hirsch want to keep safe the same characteristics of C=One right also on the next and original NatAmi board, sure it is needed an agreement between him and Jeri Ellsworth.

_________________
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Zylesea 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 10:57:57
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2119
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:
What words to use in german language to say I am amazed?



"Ich bin begeistert!"

or even a short

"Super!" or "Klasse!" will do.

I also like "Hammer!" because of its moudularity, you can extend it to "Oberhammer"
or "Hammergeil" or even combine both to "Oberhammergeil!" and it's still expanable to such extremes as "Oberkrasshammerturbogeil"...

Or use the very poular rhetoric question among younger ppl:
"Wie geil ist das denn?"

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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Donar 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 11:13:39
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Germany

@aracnet
Quote:
I think minimig is better option because of cost.

MiniMig from ACube (68000/ECS ) is about 154¤ without taxes. 68060 (last revision) is about 89¤ from eBay you can sometimes get them at 70¤ in private deals / Coldfire V4 @ 266 is about 25¤ / Bigger FPGA don't know say we add 50¤?

A500 replacement about 154¤
A1200 060 @ 80MHz / AGA+ Truecolour about 293¤
A1200 CF V4 @ 266MHz / AGA+ Truecolour about 229¤

I gladly take the A1200 replacement in any flavour. A 10 years old Blizzard on eBay will probably cost you more than that. Take the prices with a grain of salt - i'm too lazy to really calculate the price. If you find someone who would produce them in bigger quantities price could come down a lot. If you add PCI and so on expect more.

Quote:
...you can get a fast x86 hardware ... it will be most competable classic Amiga.

No, it will be a beige PC running AOS / an Amiga style OS. If that is what you want, just do it. I sometimes do it on my PC too.

_________________
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Looking for:
A1200/CF CFV4/@200,256MB,eAGA,SATA,120GB,AROS

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Zylesea 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 11:25:46
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2119
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@Donar

If you want to produce these devices according to current European law you cannot use those processors offered at ebay (old non RoHS chips). RoHS versions of the 68060 are bloody expensive...

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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Raffaele 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 14:57:00
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1852
From: Naples, Italy

@Zylesea

Quote:

Zylesea wrote:
@Donar

If you want to produce these devices according to current European law you cannot use those processors offered at ebay (old non RoHS chips). RoHS versions of the 68060 are bloody expensive...


To be more precise...

For private use, and for your private research and retrocomputing you could use even NON-RoHS chips...

And you are allowed to buy and sell products NON-RoHS if these are used items...

But...

If you want to produce and market some new hardware, then it MUST be absolutely RoHS-compliant.

Last edited by Raffaele on 14-Jan-2008 at 03:28 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 15:56:02
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11061
From: Norway

@BigGun

I think the project is interesting, it kind of like the BoXeR,

What I think is required for it to be modern system is USB, 32bit soundcard, 32bit graphics, and fast CPU.

I don’t really see the need for Custom chips in 2007, but there is always some old demos that will never be updated to modern graphic/sound cards, for those reason it perfect geek computer.

Besides that Hyperion is limited to classic computers this might be the way to get around that problems by opening the classic hardware platform, like it was done whit IBM PC reference platform

What can an old A1200 like system do? Well lots of things whit PCI / AGP and CPU upgrades and DMA support. (Not a Mediator system)

MPEG / AVI / DVIX movies should not be problem, if you can find fast HD controller and Graphic-card and fast PowerPC/OS4 combination whit DMA support.

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Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
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http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

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Leo 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 16:46:59
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1595
From: Unknown

One question: does Thomas have an AmigaOS licence ?

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 18:16:11
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2108
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@Leo

Not for OS4. It runs OS3.x, the same version of AmigaOS that comes with the AmigaForever package. He's using A1200 ROMs directly it would seem so he paid for his copy of AmigaOS 3.9 anyway.

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Mrodfr 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 18:17:00
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2007
Posts: 1396
From: French

hello,

Questions about natami/minimig and the fpga:

fpga can have all amiga chipset inside ????

also a 68k processor in only one FPGA ?????


BTW, I regret to not have the natami author somewhere to ask some questions with him.

BTW, a bounty for helping natami is OK for me

_________________
BTW, what you have done for the amiga today ????

-A1200+Mediator+VooDoo3+060/50+96mo+SCSI-KIT
-SAM440EP-667mhz-on MapowerKC3000+AOS4.1

Amiga Docs Disks Preservation Project

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 14-Jan-2008 18:59:15
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2108
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@Mrodfr

I think the Natami will need more gates in the FPGA than the MiniMig. The MiniMig probably has room in it's FPGA for the processor as well as the original Amiga chipset but will need more gates for AGA+ from NatAmi.

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Mrodfr 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 15-Jan-2008 18:21:21
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2007
Posts: 1396
From: French

@All

Someone has a link with updated pictures of the natami from the 2008 meka show ????

Also, again the same question (if someone know the answer??):

- possible to put a 68060 on a FPGA at 533 mhz and have a 68060 at 533 mhz ???
(533 mhz is an example). (1 fpga= ALL amiga chip + 1 fpga= 68k processor).

Last edited by Mrodfr on 15-Jan-2008 at 06:21 PM.

_________________
BTW, what you have done for the amiga today ????

-A1200+Mediator+VooDoo3+060/50+96mo+SCSI-KIT
-SAM440EP-667mhz-on MapowerKC3000+AOS4.1

Amiga Docs Disks Preservation Project

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Donar 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 15-Jan-2008 18:51:06
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Germany

From what i have heard there is no FPGA big enough with a decent clockrate to do this.

_________________
<- Amiga 1260 / CD ->
Looking for:
A1200/CF CFV4/@200,256MB,eAGA,SATA,120GB,AROS

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BigGun 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 15-Jan-2008 19:36:39
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@Mrodfr

Quote:

Mrodfr wrote:
Also, again the same question (if someone know the answer??):

- possible to put a 68060 on a FPGA at 533 mhz and have a 68060 at 533 mhz ???
(533 mhz is an example). (1 fpga= ALL amiga chip + 1 fpga= 68k processor).



The clockrate of an FPGA is the maximum you can get with VERY SIMPLE LOGIC.
As more complex you logic is as lower will your FPGA clockrate be.

In other words with todays FPGA you can get maybe 500 MHz with extrem simple logic in them.
With AGA (which is complex) or 68k-core (complex too) you can be happy to get 100 MHz.

Source for the speed of one 68k Softcore
http://www.hitechglobal.com/ipcores/D68000.htm

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BigGun 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 9:50:33
#59 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

A friend has send me some pictures of the MeKa meeting.

The pictures show the Natami running Protracker and the Natami CPU Cart.





BTW The fat guy with the silly smile in front of the Natami is me and not the Natami developer.

On the big picture, the Natami is on the left hand side.

Cheers

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TheDaddy 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 10:23:02
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@BigGun

So let me see if I have got this straight.

This project is an A1200 in FPGA form?

What are its specs?

Why not put all that energy and development times into a new OS4 compatible motherboard?

Also why not use a more powerful processor? PCI Express? DDRAM?

It sounds like an interesting project but what we really need is new machines able to run OS4.

What OS will it be running? If it's OS3.9, wouldn't this be a bit limiting? I hope this targets OS4 too.

But well done to its author!

Good job!

Last edited by TheDaddy on 16-Jan-2008 at 10:48 AM.

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