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TheDaddy 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 12:36:09
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@BigGun

I have read all the posts and I have a clear idea of this project...I think...

It's like an A1200 in ATX form, with 24bit gfx and 16bit sound. A socket for upgrading the cpu and ability to connect it straight to a SVGA monitor...

What kind of memory will it take? Maximum?

3D acceleration?

When will we be seeing produced?

Interesting times ahead...

Last edited by TheDaddy on 16-Jan-2008 at 12:54 PM.
Last edited by TheDaddy on 16-Jan-2008 at 12:37 PM.

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BigGun 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 13:04:46
#62 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@BigGun

So let me see if I have got this straight.

This project is an A1200 in FPGA form?


I would see it more as an A4000++ (or A5000)

Quote:

What are its specs?


The spec of the now to be build dev-boards will be:

* AGA++ Chips
Featuring AGA, plus 8-bit Chunky, and Hi/Truecolor,
Support of higher resolution (Super Hires + Overscan in Truecolor)
Paule (24bit) (16bit sample x 8bit volume)
32bit Blitter with 100Mhz
Copper etc
Very Fast Chip Ram (8MB)
Unboard Amiga compatible IDE and DISK controller (Can read Old Amiga disks!)

* CPU-Expansion with Fast Ram
The now build Dev-CPU Carts will be 68060 CPU with 512 MB Fast Mem
PPC CPU expansion cards is possible

* PCI Expansion bus

Quote:

Why not put all that energy and development times into a new OS4 compatible motherboard?


I think the key goal is to be original Amiga OS compatible
But with a PPC CPU card the Natami is WarpOS or in theory OS4 compatible too.

Quote:

Also why not use a more powerful processor? PCI Express? DDRAM?


Using CPU cards with G4/CELL and DDR fastmem will possible.
Thomas works at a lab which designs the CELL boards. ;.)

Quote:

It sounds like an interesting project but what we really need is new machines able to run OS4.


See above

Quote:

What OS will it be running? If it's OS3.9, wouldn't this be a bit limiting? I hope this targets OS4 too.


Yes the first dev boards will be equipped with OS 3.x
I think the plan is to port features from AROS to this OS to come to a improved 3.x
To be honest, I fell that the plan to rely on OS 3 + AROS is more secure from a future perspectiuve than relying on any of the other two Neo-Amiga OS. (But this is just my personal perspective)



Cheers

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TheDaddy 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 13:17:40
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@BigGun

>>I would see it more as an A4000++ (or A5000)

So it's an improved version of the AGA machines...excellent!

>>The spec of the now to be build dev-boards will be:

* AGA++ Chips

Excuse my ignorance but does it have 3D acceleration as well?

Featuring AGA, plus 8-bit Chunky, and Hi/Truecolor,
Support of higher resolution (Super Hires + Overscan in Truecolor)

So will it support SVGA resolutions? 1024x768 and so on?

>>Paule (24bit) (16bit sample x 8bit volume)

This would be so cool!

>>Very Fast Chip Ram (8MB)

I am drooling!

>>Unboard Amiga compatible IDE and DISK controller (Can read Old Amiga disks!)

What kind of speed are we looking at? ATA133?
What about a SATA II controller?

>>* CPU-Expansion with Fast Ram
The now build Dev-CPU Carts will be 68060 CPU with 512 MB Fast Mem
PPC CPU expansion cards is possible

Amazing! This could be the next "real" Amiga!

>>* PCI Expansion bus

Useful!

>>I think the key goal is to be original Amiga OS compatible
But with a PPC CPU card the Natami is WarpOS or in theory OS4 compatible too.

This is superb!

>>Using CPU cards with G4/CELL and DDR fastmem will possible.
Thomas works at a lab which designs the CELL boards. ;.)

Can't wait!

>>Yes the first dev boards will be equipped with OS 3.x
I think the plan is to port features from AROS to this OS to come to a improved 3.x
To be honest, I fell that the plan to rely on OS 3 + AROS is more secure from a future perspectiuve than relying on any of the other two Neo-Amiga OS. (But this is just my personal perspective)

So to start with OS3.9, then OS3.9 with some AROS add-ons and maybe OS4 (when PPC board is out).

Good news!

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Yssing 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 13:23:45
#64 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 995
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Arhh come on your not fat... you should see me then..

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Interesting 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 15:58:45
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@reflect

Quote:

That looks like the C-1 motherboard, which makes sense as you can reprogram the cpu to become another cpu.


from the pics later on the project looks to be using whatever parts are on hand and available. Its a good way to do alot of testing and keep the costs down in a project like this.

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Interesting 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 16:06:28
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@Raffaele

Quote:
Also, if Hirsch want to keep safe the same characteristics of C=One right also on the next and original NatAmi board, sure it is needed an agreement between him and Jeri Ellsworth.


Maybe Jens can post and clear something up for us. Doesn't Jens have all rights to the c one board and not Jeri Ellsworth?

Another point: Might be another FPGA type product out there from Jeri Ellsworth. We I talked to hear a few years ago, she told me "she had lots of ideas of things to do with the Amiga". So you never know.

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Pleng 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 16:38:07
#67 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 454
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Quote:

The spec of the now to be build dev-boards will be:

* AGA++ Chips
Featuring AGA, plus 8-bit Chunky, and Hi/Truecolor,
Support of higher resolution (Super Hires + Overscan in Truecolor)
Paule (24bit) (16bit sample x 8bit volume)
32bit Blitter with 100Mhz
Copper etc
Very Fast Chip Ram (8MB)
Unboard Amiga compatible IDE and DISK controller (Can read Old Amiga disks!)


Why oh why couldn't we have had this system 9 years ago?!

Any ideas of suggested retail price yet? I'm kind of an x86 AROS fanboy but this does sound like a pretty cool device. I'm already tempted, even though I could find ZERO useful purposes for it!

One question. I'm presuming the AGA/ECS screenmodes on this computer would work on a standard monitor without need for scandoubler etc?

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Raffaele 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 17:01:43
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1852
From: Naples, Italy

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:
Also, if Hirsch want to keep safe the same characteristics of C=One right also on the next and original NatAmi board, sure it is needed an agreement between him and Jeri Ellsworth.


Maybe Jens can post and clear something up for us. Doesn't Jens have all rights to the c one board and not Jeri Ellsworth?

Another point: Might be another FPGA type product out there from Jeri Ellsworth. We I talked to hear a few years ago, she told me "she had lots of ideas of things to do with the Amiga". So you never know.



Jeri Ellsworth she is really the "Hardware Lady"...

I wonder what could happen if Jeri could take a look to full specs of AAA Amiga Chipset and all factsheets regarding it, and let her spot the non-functioning AAA prototype motherboard which it is property of Dave Haynie...

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/amigaaaa.html

And perhaps let Jeri see at a microscope the real structure of AAA chips...

And IMHO I personally believe that she could realize a full functioning PPC based AAA Amiga from scratch, and all embedded in a Mini ATX form factor motherboard...

Last edited by Raffaele on 16-Jan-2008 at 05:23 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 16-Jan-2008 at 05:02 PM.

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Hans 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 17:07:06
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4907
From: New Zealand

@cHaOs667

Quote:

cHaOs667 wrote:
@BigGun
Does he use the uae sources to build the aga chipset (like the mini mig has done with the ecs chipset - i hope not!)?


Minimig doesn't use the UAE sources either. It's C code that doesn't map onto hardware in an FPGA. He may have occasionally had a look at the UAE source when things not covered by the hardware manuals surfaced. IIRC, Dennis also used a real A500 to check behaviour.

Hans

OOPs, I didn't notice the length of this thread

Last edited by Hans on 16-Jan-2008 at 05:07 PM.

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Mrodfr 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 18:46:11
#70 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2007
Posts: 1396
From: French

@BigGun

Thanks for the FPGA explanation and for the new meka 2006 natami pictures.

FPGA: the more complex, the less speed for FPGA.

The following question about the FPGA, from your explanation is:

just a 68k processor on a FPGA, how much speed ????


I understand now you have not made some pictures on the show because you are on the pictures !!


Thanks for the pictures, don't hesitate if you have more. if you search on google, the natami are on some site now. I think only with the great help of your thread open here some days ago.

Thanks for resuming the explanations and being here to explain more the natami Hope you will also have the power to show to the natami developper the enthousiast (??) the natami give to some old amiga users



@TheDaddy:

The natami project have started long ago with nothing and now, in the last months, things are moving fast for the amiga with hyperion and aos4 (thanks to hyperion).

Of course, if the developper of natami maybe know that before, he maybe choose another path for his natami hobby development, isn't it ???

Hope really the natami project will continue because It's a really good project IMHO


EDIT: hum, I have forgotten to move to page 4 before answering. Sorry if my answer aren't up to date with the explanations you have receive after, TheDaddy
(I need to sleep soon

Last edited by Mrodfr on 16-Jan-2008 at 06:54 PM.
Last edited by Mrodfr on 16-Jan-2008 at 06:52 PM.

_________________
BTW, what you have done for the amiga today ????

-A1200+Mediator+VooDoo3+060/50+96mo+SCSI-KIT
-SAM440EP-667mhz-on MapowerKC3000+AOS4.1

Amiga Docs Disks Preservation Project

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TheDaddy 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 18:55:08
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@Mrodfr

This would be the next evolution in the Amiga line with real Amiga dna:

1) it's basically an AGA machine with better graphics and sound
2) Compatible with old software
3) Able to accept a 68030, 060 or PPC (for OS4)
4) It has the Amiga custom chipset feeling

If they managed to integrate some powerful 3D acceleration it would be awesome.

I would buy it but it has to tick all the right boxes.

It would also be nice to know the price, approximately.

I would love the machine as it is but with modern extras like USB, Firewire, PCI-Express and PPC.

Please release it and release it soon!

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wolfe 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 19:43:18
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 1283
From: Under The Moon - Howling in the Blue Grass

@TheDaddy

I want one too, so lets form a line ? ? ?

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Rob 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 19:50:55
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5804
From: S.Wales

@Raffaele

Quote:
I wonder what could happen if Jeri could take a look to full specs of AAA Amiga Chipset and all factsheets regarding it, and let her spot the non-functioning AAA prototype motherboard which it is property of Dave Haynie...


What is the point in this talk about AAA. Do you think people would want to recreate the OCS/ECS/AGA chipsets if there wasn't a rich back catalogue of software to run on them.

Besides didn't you read Dave Haynie's comments at the bottom of the page you linked.

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wegster 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 20:10:18
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@TheDaddy
The point of the project seems to be _compatibility_, with some improvements that will still be backwards compatible.

Sorry, but I don't believe PCI-Express, or 3D acceleration exactly fits in that description. And AAA? Who _cares_? It's dead and buried. It's interesting from a historical standpoint, but that's it. There aren't tons of new 3.X apps out there being written, let alone ones that would use AAA. (OS4, MOS, and AROS obviously each are producing some apps, either cross-platform/3.X or their respective APIs).

It would be great to see USB2, but even then he'd still need a USB driver to support it, something neither OS4 nor MOS has produced yet AFAIK.

This is an awesome project, big kudos to the engineer who did it, and is more interesting to me than minimig or Clone-A at the moment, although they are also excellent achievements.

The fact it might be able to take a PPC card at one point..would be great. It would still be a 'classic Amiga,' but one much less likely to break down due to age. I hope this makes it out to the public at some point.


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Lou 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 20:10:33
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3955
From: Rhode Island

Some thoughts...

Why not separate the AGA chips into individual fpgas? Sure it drives up the costs, but then you can get the speed up on individual chips and expand their functionality from there.

Also, since someone wants 3D, why not add a dedicated 3d gpu and have another chip scale and overlay the AGA display ontop of the 3d display and then output to the monitor? I know 3d cards can do this now, but how would you stream the AGA display to it without slowing the whole machine down and the 3D card too? Make a fpga than can do scaling of Amiga displays to whatever the 3D display is at and define the background color and then overlay ontop of the 3D output and display the final image.

The ATI All-In-Wonder cards did this sort of thing natively with live television. My desktop background was a live analog cable TV display and my icons and TaskBar were overlayed onto it. Sort of the reverse of what I am saying but just as easy to implement. Infact now that I think about it, it seems the way to have the best of both worlds...

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TheDaddy 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 20:28:16
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@wegster

>>The point of the project seems to be _compatibility_, with some improvements that will still be backwards compatible.

Sure but as if it is to be introduced as the natural successor of the A1200/4000 then it must improve and introduce a modern design.

>>Sorry, but I don't believe PCI-Express, or 3D acceleration exactly fits in that description.

I am asking if it can be done, just throwing ideas around, if it brings the costs up then fine, I am sure there will be people to pay more for a machine which is backwards compatible and allows future expansions, IF it cab be achieved then why not stick it in.

>>And AAA? Who _cares_? It's dead and buried.

I agree with you there, let's not get stuck in the past by trying to reproduce something that would have been good 10 years ago, not now.

>>It would be great to see USB2, but even then he'd still need a USB driver to support it, something neither OS4 nor MOS has produced yet AFAIK.

The thing is, if this new mobo is out and people buy it then there would be an increasingly demand for USB drivers and developers would certainly work on them.

>>This is an awesome project, big kudos to the engineer who did it, and is more interesting to me than minimig or Clone-A at the moment, although they are also excellent achievements.

ABSOLUTELY, this is BIG, this is the biggest thing we have seen in ages. If the engineer puts all these things together and they fit nicely we could have an AWESOME machine, upgradable to PPC with good graphics, no need for scandoublers, AGA compatible but on top of that it would be like some pc motherboards you can buy today, they come with a goodish graphics chip but offer the PCI-Express slot for future needs.

I think we should lobby it and make sure this guy makes it into production.

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TheDaddy 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 20:31:50
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@Lou

>>Also, since someone wants 3D, why not add a dedicated 3d gpu and have another chip scale and overlay the AGA display ontop of the 3d display and then output to the monitor?

I was thinking the improved AGA chipset could be the basis so people can use it like on some pc moderboards with onboard graphics but have a PCI-Express slot for 3D graphics card.

Also this should have some kind of WOW effect, to recapture that Boing Ball and The Juggler jaw dropping moment, does anyone remember?

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aracnet 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 21:15:00
#78 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 84
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Gateway/AI would have been insane to continue AAA. It would have been
revolutionary if released in 1990, pretty cool in 1992, ok in 1994 (the
earliest it could have been released on the schedule we had, with a
healthy Commodore). Today, it would be a horribly expensive thing with
less graphics performance than any old everyday $10 PCI-based SVGA
graphics chip. There is simply no point whatsoever. And that's spelled
"HAYNIE"...
- Dave Haynie, Team Amiga ML, 3/5/99.

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TheDaddy 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 21:33:12
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@aracnet

Agreed!

Forget the AAA and let's focus onto an improved AGA with an option to install a 3D KICKASS pci-express graphics card!

AWESOME!

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: MeKa 2008 (Amiga Party) (SHOWN WAS NEW AMIGA HW!)
Posted on 16-Jan-2008 22:13:56
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2105
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@aracnet

Agreed!

Forget the AAA and let's focus onto an improved AGA with an option to install a 3D KICKASS pci-express graphics card!

AWESOME!


3d acceleration isn't just matrix calculations on the GFX card (although there is that) but drivers. With an improved processor with a vector unit like Altivec or MMX or SSE/2/3 somebody could use this for 3d anyway.

Just take an efficient software renderer like Allegro Scene Render, optimize it for AGA++, and then we'll have a nice but not necessarily blinding fast 3d performance that can eventually be incorporated into a new chipset later on.

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