@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote: Quote: What's the problem? Port AmigaOS 4 to x86. It's so simple, and everybody will be happy! This should have been done long ago. As obvious as this might sound to you - and most sane minds around here - Hyperion and the Frieden brothers have been against this from the very beginning, claiming that it would not be possible or too time consuming at any rate. This discussion has been going on for several years, always with the same conclusion. Although, to a large extent one of the arguments for this by many was to have access to lower cost hardware, the main argument for x86 for many others as well as for myself, was always to avoid beeing in the mess that we're currently in. Licensing arguements aside, Hyperion has never agreed with this logic...to their and our peril, IMHO.

Please explain how porting to x86 would solve the current situation; and yes, the licensing scheme does matter in this.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@umisef

Quote:

Actually, it refers to "an Object Code version of the Work". If the object code *was* the work, that would be silly. The contract also says that Hyperion shall have the Friedens "carry out the Work". You don't carry out object code, you carry out software development (which is OK, "the Work" is defined as software development).

I didn't say that the definition of "Work" is "Object Code", and yes you can carry out software development, and according to the contract, KMOS will own the developed software. software != source code + IP, and software development != soure code + IP development.

Quote:

If one owns certain "software development" which has been "carried out", one most certainly owns the IP that was created by said development. Who *else* would own that IP?

No he doesn't, unless it is explicitly specified in the contract, as Lou also pointed out. The terms "software", or "developed software", or "software development" do not automatically include source code or IP. The source code was used to produce the software, and it is not required to run/use the software for demonstration purposes, which is the only right KMOS gets in the software, from this contract.

And who owns the IP? That is up to the developers to decide how they develop the code and what IP they use, they could license someone else's IP and use that, or they can write everything entirely on their own so they'll use only their own IP. What technology, IP, patents, trade secrets, etc. they use to develop the software is entirely up to them, and KMOS shall have none of that.

Sorry for the offtopic...

@umisef

Gwenole Beauchesne, Basilisk has shown interest in checking out your m68k ---> PPC JIT

May yo please get in touch with him? his email is
gb (P O I N T) public ( A T ) free (P O I N T) fr

It would be really sweet if he integrated your JIT into BasiliskII...

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@Tigger

Quote:

but answer me this, if a rival of your customer wanted the same software on the same or similar hardware, would you just hand them the executable the first customer paid you to develop and charge them the same price as the first customer?

If you want to go that way and you were totally honest you would decline the offer because of interest conflict with your first customer... (be it at the same or a lower price than the first time, it would even be worst at a reduced price because then you would advantage your first customer rival by asking him a lower price for the same thing, i.e. "don't engage research, wait for other to do so and then buy it at a reduced price")

Of course I'm sure you would have declined the offer

_________________
AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it !
Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

@COBRA

Quote:

And who owns the IP? That is up to the developers to decide how they develop the code and what IP they use, they could license someone else's IP and use that, or they can write everything entirely on their own so they'll use only their own IP

Well, no, they don't have that choice. Hyperion has warranted that the Work is original work free of any encumbrances by third parties.

Quote:

KMOS will own the developed software. software != source code + IP

Uh, if software is owned by someone, and software does not include source code and IP, yet software is not object code --- what the hell *is* owned then? What, exactly, do you think KMOS now owns in exchange for their thousand bucks a day?

@abalaban

Quote:

abalaban wrote: Of course I'm sure you would have declined the offer

I would decline the offer in the example I gave (if my contract was like the Arctic one) or rewrite it for the second customer. I'm not sure Lou had thought through the implications of what he said with regard to the rules of the Arctic contract and was trying to get him to look at it another way.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Helge

Quote:

What's the problem? Port AmigaOS 4 to x86. It's so simple, and everybody will be happy! This should have been done long ago. I want a modern AmigaOS running on x86 hardware, simply replacing Windows..!

I don't think everybody would be happy. And I have spoken to key developers about this and they have told me on a technical basis how it is not that easy. Perhaps being ported as the same way that AROS implements an Exec compatible API and therefore can be C compatible but that's where it ends. No legacy support otherwise the whole thing would be obfuscated by AmigaOS 68k support. Why is it that AROS can't run 68k applications natively? Even when they get EUAE integration that still won't be native 68k support, it will be 68k running on an emulator outside the [AR]OS.

In any case, what would you do with it? You'd have a cheap computer. without a proper web browser, a TCP stack that can't easily share internet, no Java, no standard spell checker in text editors (Okay MacOS beats Windows on this one), a mess of differnet GUI's, and soem other stuff I don't remember. Even for any hardware platform, I wonder, what's the point? But if you spend $500 on a laptop and you go back to Wndows anyway, well you do have a point, x86 really doesn't cost much these days. Can't beleive you can buy a laptop PC with a shiny new screen (wouldn't that be annoying?) cheaper than a desktop! Madness!!


As I have said before, if you want AmigaOS x86, then look forward to the AA2 dream. This is set to replace AmigaOS AFAICT, by dumping it and using a more modern kernel. And is targetted for x86. Are you excited?

@Hypex

Well, i could say that Cell, PPC and P.A Semi are more attractive alternatives, but let be realistic. There are hardly any PPC hardware out there, and even Mac is running x86. Then again, i don't see this problem as Amiga was never about hardware or software. It's the main AmigaOS that makes the whole thing special..

I fail to see the impression of a hosted Amiga-system running on top on anything, rather than being completely native..

I would say everybody would be happy to run a native AmigaOS, no matter what hardware that is. AI has lost the right vision for the Amiga. They focus on the mobile market. That alone is not the future...

_________________
Helge K. Leaving the Amiga in favour of a PC..

@Helge

The problem is not related to the hardware. The problem is that we have not a licence.
The parties needs to renegotiate the contracts, stop fight and looking forward all together.

_________________
retired

@umisef

Quote:

Well, no, they don't have that choice. Hyperion has warranted that the Work is original work free of any encumbrances by third parties.

In that case the developers own the IP.

Quote:

Uh, if software is owned by someone, and software does not include source code and IP, yet software is not object code --- what the hell *is* owned then? What, exactly, do you think KMOS now owns in exchange for their thousand bucks a day?

The software is owned. You can google for the definition of software, and none of them I could find includes source code. According to definition, software is the instructions which instruct a computer to perform certain tasks. That would be the executable.

@AmigaBlitter

You might be right. There is no license, and Hyperion wouldn't mind porting AmigaOS4 to x86 if they were given license or sitting with the rights for AmigaOS4 to do what they want...

_________________
Helge K. Leaving the Amiga in favour of a PC..

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: In the contract I read they have that license - so your point being? That would be the contract cancelled in December of 2006.

I haven't seen any evidence so far that this cancellation was legally valid...

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Quote: I understand very well that if after June 1, 2002, no sales report arrived at AInc, their alarm bell should have rung and they should have become active - so in my book it's solely AIncs fault that OS4 is that late - they had it in their own hands to accelerate things... You seem to be implying that AI didnt know that Hyperion was late with the software, the knew it every month, those silly Ask Fleecy things this site used to post was full of the software is coming soon. What exactly should AI have done to accelerate things?

E.g. asking Hyperion on June 1, 2002: "Where is our money?"
And in case they replied: "What money? We haven't sold anything so far!",
AInc should have asked: "What? Why didn't you sell nothing up to now?".
If Hyperion then had replied that the OS wasn't ready to sell yet, AInc could/should have taken appropriate measures either to find out what was required to accelerate things (e.g. putting money where their mouth was) or to negotiate a new contract or cancel the whole project or what do I know - is it really so hard to understand what I'm trying to bring across?


Quote:

Tigger wrote: Quote: Haven't seen it there - could you please point me to? Sure, there are several but here is one from 2 years ago: Document 35 Attachment 5, Exhibit Q. Its from September of 2005.

Hum, it'd be interesting to know if there is a proof that they asked as of June 1, 2002 - the date they should have received the first money and sales report.
Depending on the time that passed between June 1, 2002 and the day they asked for the very first time for an sales report/the OS to get finished one could get an well-founded idea/conclusion how much they were interested in the Amiga OS 4.0 - if at all.

Quote:

Tigger wrote: ...see where Olaf says that as of May 20, 2006 he's been paid a total of 2500 Euros for all his work on OS 4, and that he would have been better off working at McDonalds for a few months then working on OS 4 for the last few years and that sole sum of money was paid in 2006 after some serious negotiations on his part.

If the companies got the work done for so little money - perhaps we should start thinking about not paying more than 1 Euro per copy for the OS?

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Quote: Wouldn't you agree that such a secured right only makes sense, if you execute it in case no money arrives? And if - as you stated - Hyperion waived their claimes by waiting too long, its only fair to say Ainc waived their rights as well by the same reason. No, because if Hyperion isnt selling anything (and they werent) then inspecting there records to see if the royalties are correct is ludicrous.

As I wrote above - after noticing that no report arrived, they should have asked "Why not?" and then within an appropriate period of time taken appropriate measures to accelerate things, if they really were interested to get the OS done and released to the public, as they repeatedly claimed.

Why haven't they put their money where their mouth was?

Have they just sat aside and completely leaned on third parties and that those would do everything properly and in time?

If so, then I would call that ludicrous.

Quote:

Tigger wrote: ..so paying an accountant to spend hours looking through the records...

Don't they have eyes themselves to see that nothing had arrived?
Does it really need an accountant spending hours on that?
Or do you want to kid me?

Last edited by Dandy on 24-Jan-2008 at 01:58 PM.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@COBRA

Quote:

The software is owned. You can google for the definition of software, and none of them I could find includes source code. According to definition, software is the instructions which instruct a computer to perform certain tasks. That would be the executable.

So Hyperion can then sell the OS4 source code to DiscreetFX? That is what your telling us then, right?

Dammy

_________________
Dammy

Quote:

There are hardly any PPC hardware out there, and even Mac is running x86. Then again, i don't see this problem as Amiga was never about hardware or software. It's the main AmigaOS that makes the whole thing special..

As most apps/games/demos totally bypassed the OS, and as that's what made the Amiga quite "famous"/popular, I don't really think it is what makes the whole thing special... After Commodore went bankrupt (and even before that) software stopped being developped and only then, people sort of fallback to the OS to promote/"love" the OS... because, well, that was still quite advanced compared with other systems... But now, more than 10 years later, the OS hasn't evolved, and people (well a lot less than in 94, but...) are still thinking this OS is still better than anything else...

The only problem is that:

- while Frieden brothers and MorphOS team fought on forums,
- while people wrote hundreds of messages speculating about who would win this Amiga IP,
- while people spit on win/ms, and how bad they were,
- while people reimplemented the AmigaOSAPI at least *twice* (AROS, MorphOS, AOS4 (sort of)),
- while people ported 3 times the very same app, for the very same API (but, too bad, imcompatible) OSs (yes, again: AROS, MorphOS,...),
- ...

guess what ?

- Win(NT/XP) is now rock stable,
- MacOS(X) can do multitask,
- Unix (Linux) is quite easy to use & set up,
- and after Sony eaten the whole gameconsole market, now Nintendo is back and taking over it...

While *any* application can take the whole OS (yes, be it AOS4, MorphOS or AROS) down at *any* time, you can't automaticaly free resources allocated by an application,...

Come on: wake up ! It's 2008 !

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_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Dandy

Quote:

E.g. asking Hyperion on June 1, 2002: "Where is our money?" And in case they replied: "What money? We haven't sold anything so far!", AInc should have asked: "What? Why didn't you sell nothing up to now?".

"Because, you silly people, we won't even pay you when we *do* sell 4.0. We don't have to. It's only 4.1 onwards that we have to pay you for" and then, mumbling to themselves "So let's see how they like us redefining what '4.0' is. We can release previews, pre-releases, post-prereleases, updates, final updates and post-final july updates for literally years, and won't owe Amiga anything. And they can't do nothing! Muahahaha!"

"Uhm, guys, it's 2007 now. You were supposed to be done with 4.0 5 years ago. You are not playing by the rules. Contract cancelled. Please hand over the IP for the money you begged us for in 2003."

"What? Eek! Evil, evil!"

Quote:

Why haven't they put their money where their mouth was?

You mean why didn't they keep Hyperion afloat when things looked really grim and the whole effort was bound to go down the drain?
Why not, indeed...

Last edited by umisef on 24-Jan-2008 at 01:37 PM.

@Helge

Quote:

Well, i could say that Cell, PPC and P.A Semi are more attractive alternatives, but let be realistic. There are hardly any PPC hardware out there, and even Mac is running x86. Then again, i don't see this problem as Amiga was never about hardware or software. It's the main AmigaOS that makes the whole thing special..

It was also written to run on a processor architecture from 20+ years ago. And PPC was the most (well won out of the choices) compatible with the OS structures and internal workings. Had they used x86 from years back it would be different now, but back then x86 was really crap, and didn't support the features they needed. But it could run Windows!

So Hyperion have done a lot of work untying AmigaOS from the hardware. And infact AmigaOS4 on the PPC brings the OS closer to x86! But it isn't quite there yet. Regarding Mac on x86. let's look at some history here. First, in mid version of MacOS 8.6 IIRC, they went from 68k to PPC. Didn't even bother to go to the next proper version number before the change. I used MacOS7/8 with ShapeShifter. I bought a MacBook with OS9 installed, they were exactly alike. It was like the exact same OS ported to PowerPC. And had old 68k code even. No wonder it was alike.

Now we come to OSX, it's a completely different kettle of fish. Running a Mac like OS on top of a Unix kernel. So they had ported over the OS to be new on top of another kernel. And some new applications. And some familar ones. Although it was already using the curently established hardware, PPC, it had to run a sandbox to emulate the old OS9!

Then we come to OSX 86. Since they already had the OS on another kernel. Which had an x86 version anyway, all the needed to do was take the x86 version, and recomplie all the C code for the target CPU in a nutshell. Using portable Unix they had already abstracted it from the CPU, it was only a matter of time.

So the point is, if Amiga is to go x86 then it needs a new kernel. As it stands AmigaOS4 is a single core 32-bit single user OS that doesn't have proper memory protection for programs. Not the sort of OS that runs on x86 these days.

Quote:

I fail to see the impression of a hosted Amiga-system running on top on anything, rather than being completely native..

MacOS is not completely native anymore! Well after using OS9, I think they could have done a lot more with it, instead they dumped the real MacOS kernel. But, for AA, I think the plan is to run it native one day. In any case by comparison MacOS runs hosted, and by the same token I think AmigaOS would have to run hosted as well. MorphOS runs hosted on top of the Quark microkernel, so that is an example of an Amiga like OS running hosted. Windows has it easy as it has been running on basicially the same architecture all these years!

I guess to the Windows 3.1 fans, 95 and 98 were not the same. XP looks different and then there is the new Vista. And not every Windows user is happy to run the latest version/incarnaton/whatever.

Quote:

I would say everybody would be happy to run a native AmigaOS, no matter what hardware that is. AI has lost the right vision for the Amiga. They focus on the mobile market. That alone is not the future...

There is some emphasis on AmigaOS itself and not a based-on recreation. I know AI likes to target x86, so it's half way there. I spoke to the Bill Mac daddy eight years ago (was it that long?!) and he wanted to know back then what it was with this thing we had on PowerPC. Being into programming, I supplied technical reasons, since I pretty much knew the OS. But back then he liked PC hardware. As you can work out he didn't really understand the Amiga. Now more Amiga people agree with him.

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: I haven't seen any evidence so far that this cancellation was legally valid...

To cancel the contract you have to give 30 day notice, allow arbitration during that time, then cancelled. They gave notice, they suggested arbitration which we've seen no proof Hyperion attended, thus cancelled.

Quote:

If the companies got the work done for so little money - perhaps we should start thinking about not paying more than 1 Euro per copy for the OS?

Friedens not paid, Olaf not paid, Hyperion was probably making money on the OS. I mean think about it, they complain that the OS was delayed because they had to get the source code from Olaf. They never paid Olaf anything until 2006, and they signed a contract with him before the Nov 3, 2001 contract, so its hard to see how the Olaf issue delayed them.

Quote:

Quote: Tigger wrote: ..so paying an accountant to spend hours looking through the records... Don't they have eyes themselves to see that nothing had arrived? Does it really need an accountant spending hours on that? Or do you want to kid me?

The entire section you are talking about is about having an accountant audit the books and see if the sales figures match what royalties have been paid, but Hyperion never has paid royalties to AI, Eyetech paid royalties to AI for using the Amiga Name per unit sold and royalties to Hyperion per unit sold (for the OS 55Euros in case you are wondering). So they could have asked Eyetech why havent we gotten royalties, they would have said at first, board isnt done, after the board was done they were sending them royalties and there was no OS, but that didnt cost them money either except for the fact that AmigaOne sold far fewer units because Hyperion hadnt finished the OS.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @Dandy Quote: E.g. asking Hyperion on June 1, 2002: "Where is our money?" And in case they replied: "What money? We haven't sold anything so far!", AInc should have asked: "What? Why didn't you sell nothing up to now?". "Because, you silly people, we won't even pay you when we *do* sell 4.0. We don't have to. It's only 4.1 onwards that we have to pay you for..."

"You can stop your balderdash now - contract cancelled as of June 30, 2002...
Nice to have known you."

Quote:

umisef wrote: Quote: Why haven't they put their money where their mouth was? You mean why didn't they keep Hyperion afloat when things looked really grim ...

No - I meant when Hyperions first report was overdue after June 1, 2002...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: I haven't seen any evidence so far that this cancellation was legally valid... To cancel the contract you have to give 30 day notice, allow arbitration during that time, then cancelled. They gave notice, they suggested arbitration which we've seen no proof Hyperion attended, thus cancelled.

Tig - to cancel a contract you have to be party to it.
I bet you knew precisely what I meant.
Don't play possum everytime, please!

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Quote: Dandy wrote: ... Don't they have eyes themselves to see that nothing had arrived? Does it really need an accountant spending hours on that? Or do you want to kid me? The entire section you are talking about is about ...

How about discussing the content of what I said instead of useless re-citing the section I was referring to?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

How about discussing the content of what I said instead of useless re-citing the section I was referring to?

I honestly dont understand what point you are trying to make unless its that Amino should have cancelled the contract years ago. I agree with that, but they didnt, the people they sold everything to did it in 2006 instead. I'm not sure what your point is, for years when will it be done has been asked lots and lots and lots of time, so why is this your focus of thought now?
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.