@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @Dandy Quote: I wholeheartedly disagree that the CD in question was meant "for developers that wasn't part of the OS developments" Uh, which part of "We have a team of about 30 developers working on the OS" and "We have shipped more or less 1000 copies of the developer pre-release" did you interpret as "The developer pre-release was meant for 30 OS developers, which is why we made up a fancy cover for it".

The "We have a team of about 30 developers working on the OS" -part...

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umisef wrote: Or do you disagree with the proven fact that the damn thing had "developer pre-release" written all over it?

Again:
NO!

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umisef wrote: If so, how do you explain that the CD contained all sorts of developer goodies, including (at least according to the original announcements) cross-compilers for a variety of non-OS4 systems?

I'm not explaining anything.

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umisef wrote: Quote: That would equal to economic suicide IMO, if they gave away copies of an unreleased OS for free and without any non-disclosure agreements... Which just *may* be why it didn't happen. ... And the damn thing came with license agreements and warnings about copying.

Aha.
The way it was written I had to think they sent it out without any form of NDA...

Quote:

umisef wrote: So, tell me again how delivering an incomplete product, months or in cases years after people paid for it, is any more commercial suicide than not delivering the product would be?

I never claimed an incomplete product had been delivered - my copy of OS4 seems pretty complete to me...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@jorkany

Quote:

jorkany wrote: @Dandy Quote: And where in your quote did I swear something? Right fuc*ing here: Quote: for the developers who developed the fuc*ing thing? Maybe you just aren't aware, "swearing" is a synonym for "cursing".´

You're right - I didn't know that...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

[ironic mode]

Certainly.

The Daimler developers get a free example of the new Volvo long berfore the first snapshots of the pretest vehicle are made public and T-System gives copies of their latest C.H.I.P. version to their competitor's developers...

Do you have some more fairytales to tell?

[/ironic mode]


Funny how MS released beta en release candidates of Vista long before it went "RTM"; final release and it was available to the public for free.

And I'm pretty sure all system builders and driver developers got a copy for free as well to get started ahead of RTM.. No one is going to write drivers for an beta (or alpha as some must have gotten as well) OS and pay for it.

And btw, it's duobtfull at least that OS4 was "given" away to competing developers, if they got OS4 they most likely just bought an A1 and got their Pre release (or beta, or release candidate, it's all the same, just a different name.. Boing Bags, service pack, upgrades.) so they could play with it and see what the final release would be like.

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@Dandy

Quote:

Uh, which part of "We have a team of about 30 developers working on the OS" and "We have shipped more or less 1000 copies of the developer pre-release" did you interpret as "The developer pre-release was meant for 30 OS developers, which is why we made up a fancy cover for it".

The "We have a team of about 30 developers working on the OS" -part...


So.. They made 770 more copies then they needed ?

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@Seer

Developers working on the OS != Developers developing for the OS

AIUI, the Developer pre-release was aimed at the latter group so that software development could be started in advance of the full release of the OS.

@damocles

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damocles wrote: @Dandy Quote: ... But you are of course right - it does not matter what you say - understandable or not... Thank you for confirming that it's a waste of my time to communicate with you.

Exactly.
Nice to have known you...

Quote:

damocles wrote: Quote: Why don't you ask Evert this question? Why not simply answer my questions instead of asking another question? Oh yeah, you don't want to answer that because that would put Evert in a bad light. Can't have that, now can we?

I'm just applying the same tactics as Tigger, you and others are using - so what?

Does it make you feel uncomfortable to look into the mirror I'm holding in front of your face?

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@madtrekker

I'm not the one questioning what developer pre release means or the one who somehow seems to think that you need to have 1000 copies for 30 OS Developers.

Read what Dandy wrote please.

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Seer

Quote:

Seer wrote: @Dandy Uh, which part of "We have a team of about 30 developers working on the OS" and "We have shipped more or less 1000 copies of the developer pre-release" did you interpret as "The developer pre-release was meant for 30 OS developers, which is why we made up a fancy cover for it". Quote: The "We have a team of about 30 developers working on the OS" -part... So.. They made 770 more copies then they needed ?

Errrmmmmm - 770 + 30 = 1000 ???

Or did you mean they made 970 copies more than they needed?

Anyway - I don't know.

All I seem to know is that they sent the so called "Developer Pre Release" not only to developers, but to end users as well.

And if a "Developer Pre Release" is sent to end users it can't be a pure "Developer Pre Release" anymore in my book - no matter what it's labeled.

And as I have the privilege not to be an lawyer, the judge may see it completely different.

You know saying:
"On sea and at court you're in the hands of god." ?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy


Errrmmmmm - 770 + 30 = 1000 ???

Or did you mean they made 970 copies more than they needed?


A typo yeah . Funny that you are correcting people on English grammar while apperently you don't seem to know that swearing has 2 meanings. (See also below)

And if a "Developer Pre Release" is sent to end users it can't be a pure "Developer Pre Release" anymore in my book - no matter what it's labeled.

The labeling is what counts, easy as that, even for the law.

And if you drop the Developer moniker it still says Pre and that clearly indicates it's not a final release no matter how you look at the wording. Simple really, especially if you count all press releases, and not to mention the big news item "It's done".


You know saying:
"On sea and at court you're in the hands of god." ?


Somehow I think you are just playing around, and acting ignorant and claim language barrier as an excuse when things are not going in a way that makes you or your point of view valid/good. Just how it looks from here...


Anyway, no offense meant to any, not you nor the developers (it was Roque who posted the news) I just hope it works out for them.

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Seer

Quote:

Seer wrote: @Dandy The labeling is what counts, easy as that, even for the law. And if you drop the Developer moniker it still says Pre and that clearly indicates it's not a final release no matter how you look at the wording. Simple really, especially if you count all press releases, and not to mention the big news item "It's done".

I hate to jump back in here, but if the OS was usable and you can launch a text editor, labelling it a "Developer's Pre-Release" simply is identifying your target market...at this point. In other words, 3rd party developers can now produce software but to the average consumer, there was no software to purchase, hence no reason to purchase the OS. This does not mean the OS is not usable or doesn't work or isn't available to the consumer. There was no "developer registration" required, no credentials were required to qualify you to purchase it.

I'm not debating the details of Annex 1 & 2 here. Clearly Microsoft releases Service Packs to Windows...infact SP3 is due soon...is it done yet? ...and yes, those service packs have introduced new functionality... So it seems to me that the "Developer's Pre-Release" was available to general consumers but the lack of applications limited it's desirablility to that market...not to mention the lack of hardware to run it on...

Even if the project was done in 3 or 6 months, would there have been any OS4 software to run on it? No! Iinfact it would only be usable by developers at that point whether it was labelled "OS4 AAA+++ Uber Duper Every Extend Extra Version" or not...

As I recall, having commercial applications available to run natively on the OS was not part of the contract...

So I ask, can this discussion about how it was labelled come to an end? It seems people are jumping on Dandy because that's the thing to do and that people assume that majority of people on this site assume KMOS will win just because there are 4 vocal users that say so and 2 that don't. The recent PTO stuff AmigaPhil reported should tell you enough about the situation. This is not an open and shut case in KMOS' favor. We just got hit with a 6 month delay. If it was open and shut, it would be over in several months...now it's several months +6.

@Lou

Sigh..

PRE-release. What's so hard to see what that means ?

Beta 1 of Vista was usable for me and wow, I could even use Office apps and browse the web, so what, it wasn't the RTM / Final release.... Hell, I didn't even have to buy the OS to get the beta from MS themselves....

The argument is when OS4 final was released. Are you going to argue that OS was final when it is labeled "pre" ? What the hell does Pre mean then ? A final Pre release... Sure.. Just before the final final release..

Clearly Microsoft releases Service Packs to Windows...infact SP3 is due soon...is it done yet? ...and yes, those service packs have introduced new functionality.

Hardly, only SP2 really added new features, SP1 mostly bugfixes and small patches that were allready released before. Is IE7 even in SP3 ? It wasn't in RC1 of SP3. Just because it chances a few things of the network stack and other small things are hardly new features end users are going to see and notice..

Also, SP1, SP2, SP3, SP4, SP5, SP6, SP6a of NT4 were bugfixes and hardly any new features. And if there were new features they were also available as downloads before the SPs were released. Like a new IE version...

It seems people are jumping on Dandy

Same for Dandy, he likes to jump on people as well.

KMOS will win just because there are 4 vocal users

And there are no vocal users that claim the opposite right.... Sjees...

So I ask, can this discussion about how it was labelled come to an end?

Why not stay out of the thread and don't add to it if you want it to end? Or do you think you're special and entitled to get the last word in ?

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Seer

You ignored my statement about even if it were labelled "final" that "normal" users would still not have a reason to purchase it. In fact when Vista went "final" there was software that you could purchase and not that the OS wasn't available in advance as you yourself have clearly put it.

Quote:

Or do you think you're special and entitled to get the last word in ?

No, clearly you or someone else will.


edited by mistake... shouldn't work and try to post at the same time..
Seer

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@Lou

You seem to ignore that we are talking about a legal battle, and that's where this definition is going to count.


Quote:

Or do you think you're special and entitled to get the last word in ?

No, clearly you or someone else will.

Poor Lou.. Just keep replying and ask people to stop posting and reply again....

Last edited by Seer on 19-Mar-2008 at 02:25 PM.

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Seer

Quote:

Seer wrote: @Lou You seem to ignore that we are talking about a legal battle, and that's where this definition is going to count.

Which is what I've said many times... it's the judge's definition, not your or mine that will count.
Quote:

Quote: Or do you think you're special and entitled to get the last word in ? No, clearly you or someone else will. Poor Lou.. Just keep replying and ask people to stop posting and reply again....

Pot, kettle, black.

this is getting waaay of topic, where is Tigger when we need him???....

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@Lou

No Lou, I'm not the one asking everybody to drop the subject, you are. At best I asked you to keep out, and not requested everybody to stop posting, that is what you are doing.

Ok, making this a moderator request. Stay out of the thread permanently.

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removed

See also previous request and your response

Quote:

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Seer.

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@Seer

Quote:

Ok, making this a moderator request. Stay out of the thread permanently.

Why? This I don't understand!!

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@Swoop, Lou and all


Seer did make a moderator request

Quote:

Ok, making this a moderator request. Stay out of the thread permanently.

This goes under this TOS section:

Quote:

Moderation: A moderators say is final. When a moderation decision is made the moderator will document why either in private message or at the place where moderation occurred. This in most cases will be accompanied by reference to which Terms Of Service have been broken. Moderators are allowed to use their discretion in interpretation of the Terms Of Service and operate outside of the Terms Of Service where they see a need to intervene. Where you disagree, or feel unfairness is an issue, see Ajudication.

Quote:

Adjudication: Whilst AmigaWorld.net moderation tries to be fair and balanced sometimes errors can occur. If you disagree with a specific instance where you have been moderated then please put your complaint to the Webmaster, an Administrator or another moderator for consideration and possible action. Arguments about specific moderation incidents are not tolerated on the public forum, use the adjudication process open to you.

Point being: Arguments about specific moderation incidents are not tolerated on the public forum, use the adjudication process open to you.

So don't start discussing moderation here, if you disagree with Seer's decision, PM another staff member.

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@Seer

Quote:

Seer wrote: @Dandy Errrmmmmm - 770 + 30 = 1000 ??? Or did you mean they made 970 copies more than they needed? A typo yeah . Funny that you are correcting people on English grammar

Sorry - but you're wrong again.
I didn't correct your grammar - all I corrected was your spelling of "than".

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Seer wrote: while apperently you don't seem to know that swearing has 2 meanings. (See also below)

I'm sure you agree that noone in this world can know everything.
The meanig of "swearing an oath" was the only one I was taught at school - blame on my English teachers!

And thanks for teaching me the other meaning!

Quote:

Seer wrote: And if a "Developer Pre Release" is sent to end users it can't be a pure "Developer Pre Release" anymore in my book - no matter what it's labeled. The labeling is what counts, easy as that, even for the law. And if you drop the Developer moniker it still says Pre and that clearly indicates it's not a final release no matter how you look at the wording. Simple really, especially if you count all press releases, and not to mention the big news item "It's done".

Thats why I said the judge may see it completely different.

But I think you agree that I'm entitled to have my own opinion and to express it, don't you?

And in my opinion - if a "Developer Pre Release" is sent to end users - it can't be a pure "Developer Pre Release" anymore in my book - no matter what it's labeled.

Quote:

Seer wrote: You know saying: "On sea and at court you're in the hands of god." ? Somehow I think you are just playing around,

No - sorry to disappoint you, but I'm no "play-child"...

Quote:

Seer wrote: and acting ignorant

As I already stated above: noone in this world can know everything.
And sometimes a posting based on poor knowledge (because lack of time to read and memorise every and all court documents) comes across as "ignorant".

I have to live with that...

Quote:

Seer wrote: and claim language barrier as an excuse when things are not going in a way that makes you or your point of view valid/good. Just how it looks from here...

Sorry - I only claimed "language barrier as an excuse when" I had the feeling that others were not able to get what I meant, because I didn't use the best wording to bring my point across.

As you may have noticed with the "swearing" example my English is far from being perfect - although I try my very best.

Some here are intellectually advanced enough to understand that and some are not.
You may decide for yourself which of both groups is the one fitting best for you.

Quote:

Seer wrote: Anyway, no offense meant to any, not you nor the developers (it was Roque who posted the news)

No problem - no offense taken - just hoping you don't ignore my answers.

Quote:

Seer wrote: I just hope it works out for them.

That's what I'm also doing...

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Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)