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PosterThread
RodTerl 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 15:54:18
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 6-Sep-2004
Posts: 589
From: Rossendale

Um, the thing I seem to remember about that AA1 demo, and it would be intresting if its correct, is that he placed the stick in the first device, and started playing the game.

He then Paused the game.

He then removed the memory stick from that device, and placed it in a Totally different machine, different CPU family, different hardware architecture, host OS, screen format etc..

He then UnPaused the game, and continued playing.

Now if that actually occured, how could anything else be more advanced, especially given most people these days are just about used to using specific code, written for specific systems, on specific machines.

How many of you yet can use your accelerated Classic as a thin client to your Linux server, or Opera on your mobile or Nintendo DS to use your headless box, or are You also still stuck on using a single machne for all purposes, PC style?

Think Scale. One chip for all things, CPU.. one machine for all things PC, one OS for all things Windows.

The Amiga would not be a single physical device, but the cooperation of everything you own, just like within the origional machine.

RodTerl

As Above, So Below.


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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:17:41
#42 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@linnar

Quote:
It's use C.


Wow. This will atract, like, half of developers community! Why code in C with all the libraries at your disposal (most of them Open or free to use), or C++, or Ruby, or Python, or C#?

You can use C and some libraries bundled by Amiga that in long run will be always behind big sets like SDL becasue of users/developers ratio on both sides.

This calls for FAIL tag.

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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:20:56
#43 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:
Including the VM in the exe is most likely, IMHO, is packaging providing for ease of usage on the preferred platform only


Wait. I have library X, I use it in my code. I compile it with library X static linked to my executable code. This is just a binary. Where's VM in all this?

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mjg59 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:25:54
#44 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Posts: 44
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

BigBentheAussie wrote:
@mjg59

Quote:
No. There's no virtual machine - AA2.0 is just a utility library. Think of it as an SDL equivalent.

Woah!! Are you an AA2 dev? Can someone confirm this?
If this is so, then what the hell does it do for you really?
Hmmm.. I guess the upside may be execution speed.


I'm not an AA dev (registered, never heard anything back after sending in the dev agreement, gave up to do better things), though I cover pretty much everything else - right now I'm working on Linux, Symbian and WinCE. The toolchain included with the SDK is gcc targetting the mingw32ce platform, effectively just a cross compiler for Windows CE. The only thing you're getting out of AA2 right now is a straightforward API for handling 2D graphics and .mod playback, along with the vague promise that it'll target operating systems other than Windows at some point in the future. There's no magic involved, though - it'd just be a port of the API to another OS. Bad luck if you're interested in a platform that has weird restrictions like Symbian, though, because you'll have to make sure your code doesn't trigger any of them.

Quote:

Do you think it is merely a wrapper for SDL?
Perhaps there is a way to check this by testing for a known limitation/bug in SDL.


No, I suspect it's implemented directly on top of Win32.

Quote:

Do they do anything special in regard to maintaining timing, and scaling on different platforms with AA2, as they must have with AA1?


No idea, I'm afraid.

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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:33:53
#45 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@RodTerl

Quote:
You also still stuck on using a single machne for all purposes, PC style?


Stuck? No, I'm enjoying it. You see, I hate when I have to clutter my life with useless gadgets. My laptop and my Blackberry mobile are everything I need in daily life. Why would I go for more gadgets?

Also, this 'runs everywhere' was a pipe-dream from my point of view.

OK, you type your application. Let say it keeps your stock data. You run it on Phone/PDA -- fsck -- screen is so small it can not do full blown UI. So, you need to build another UI for this. And it takes half of battery life and 3h of deadlock to recount your account because of PDA's CPU. And you have second type of application where you make notes with stylus, and oh, you can not do that on PC.

So, two problems. It's almost impossible to write application that will work in same manner on all devices, even if binary can be started. You'll need to keep track on how UI layout works on smaller screens, what to keep and what to kick out, you'll have to write different navigations scenarios because you have joystick, keyboard, clickwheel, thumbwheel as input devices.

Then, there's a power problem. You have to focus on smallest denominator, as you want to see your application working. So, it works fine on your PDA, so it will work fine on PC. Other way around, not so much.

If you need to keep so much things in your mind, why not just split your project in two, keep logic and helping libraries outside, and just build two versions?

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Leo 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:34:47
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

No, I suspect it's implemented directly on top of Win32.

It is: DDRaw calls everywhere...

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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:38:46
#47 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Leo

So, to have it on other platform is basically re implement all Win32 calls? This will end well.

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mjg59 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:43:45
#48 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Posts: 44
From: Unknown

@opi

Nah, all the Win32 stuff is abstracted behind the AA library. But yeah, I've no clue why this would be significantly more appealing than SDL - SDL already supports a massively larger number of platforms, and if you want something more powerful than that then Ideaworks will sell you something that's already being used in the real world and even supports 3D.

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kirka 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 16:44:50
#49 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Jun-2004
Posts: 94
From: Boston, MA

@Leo

Does AA2 require DirectX?

Kirka

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Pleng 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 17:25:20
#50 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:
@soft

And don't forget it is a betaversion.



It is? Amiga Inc keep very quiet about that in their press release?

Quote:


AA2 is like AMOS but mutch more easy to programming.



AMOS is based on Basic. AA2 is based on C. This fact alone makes me highly doubt that AA2 (beta?) is easier to program than AMOS

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 17:40:53
#51 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:
@soft

Wait to it is testing more than a litle demo. And don't forget it is a betaversion.

AA2 is like AMOS but mutch more easy to programming.



Who said the AA2 SDK is beta?

From Amiga.com:

Quote:
Amiga Anywhere version 2.0 is a new version that has been developed by Amiga and its development team. This new version will allow for quicker deployment and scaling functions on more devices, and by summer 2007 will include support for Linux, and Symbian devices.


I don't see "beta" anywhere.

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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 18:06:52
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Pleng

What made AMOS great that it did have powerful commands, only few commands and you have cool application playing music, and showing image, fading colors in and out.

The biggest difference between C and AMOS is that has more syntax, the rest can be almost the same, and Read and Writing from memory whit pointers instead of peek and poke.

Well I think pointers are easier then peek and poke,

The most annoying thing about C, is that you most use ( and ) after if command, and the ‘;’ symbol that most be used after etch command.

C does not have “END IF” it has ‘}’
C does not have LOOP it has ‘}’
C does not have NEXT it has ‘}’
C does not have DO it has for(;;)

So whit the result you need to use tabs to know where IF condition start and where it ends, C forces a writing style on the developer.

One tiny thing you can do to get around this by writing the flowing lines on your top of your program

#define IF if (
#define THEN ){
#define ENDIF }
#define DO for(;;){
#define LOOP }
#define NEXT }

So in other word C can almost look like Basic code, whit exception exception of the annoying ‘;’ symbol that most be used after etch command, basically the same as “:” in basic, but more annoying.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 19:43:27
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@fairlanefastback
Quote:

Quote:
Amiga Anywhere version 2.0 is a new version that has been developed by Amiga and its development team. This new version will allow for quicker deployment and scaling functions on more devices, and by summer 2007 will include support for Linux, and Symbian devices.

Quote:
I don't see "beta" anywhere.


The message from Amiga Inc talks about AA2 and tihs is not a beta version.
The SDK is a beta version.


In AA2 SDK textfile:
Quote:

Amiga Anywhere 2.0.0 (BETA) Release Notes
=========================================

The Amiga Anywhere SDK provides developers with documentation, header files,
and example code necessary to write software for Amiga Anywhere.
/.../The beta version of the Amiga Anywhere SDK/../

Last edited by linnar on 15-Feb-2008 at 07:47 PM.
Last edited by linnar on 15-Feb-2008 at 07:46 PM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 19:51:12
#54 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Pleng

Quote:
AMOS is based on Basic. AA2 is based on C. This fact alone makes me highly doubt that AA2 (beta?) is easier to program than AMOS

You doubt becuse you don't know but I know and I say AA2 is easier to develop with.

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 20:00:52
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown


Some answers about cross platform:

Manual:
/../ allowing a developer to write a game or multimedia application once, then compile and run it on many different operating systems.

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 20:43:15
#56 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:

The SDK is a beta version.


In AA2 SDK textfile:
[quote]
Amiga Anywhere 2.0.0 (BETA) Release Notes
=========================================

The Amiga Anywhere SDK provides developers with documentation, header files,
and example code necessary to write software for Amiga Anywhere.
/.../The beta version of the Amiga Anywhere SDK/../
[/qoute]


Cool. Thats interesting. So we've found out a few things, its not gone gold yet. And so far people seem split on how good it is.

Linnar, when will we see your first AA2 app released to the public?

On the major plus side at least we seem to be getting enough of a response from various people who say they can program that this SDK is at least really an attempt at a tangible developing product. Whether it will ever be successful is another question. But at least they've finally done something!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 15-Feb-2008 at 08:49 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 15-Feb-2008 at 08:47 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

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soft 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 15-Feb-2008 21:21:35
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 209
From: Derbyshire, UK

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Cool. Thats interesting. So we've found out a few things, its not gone gold yet. And so far people seem split on how good it is.


I'm just split on what it is.

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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 16-Feb-2008 0:23:09
#58 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
C does not have “END IF” it has ‘}’


END IF is fsckin' evil. People, there's a switch()! Can we stop abusing END IF? You should try to debug huge code with this statement inside. Why not let us be lame to the max and use GOTO when we're at it?

EDIT: Never type while drunk. I meant ELSE IF!

Last edited by opi on 16-Feb-2008 at 09:23 AM.

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wegster 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 16-Feb-2008 0:58:24
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

Ok, this is a REALLY weak argument.

END IF is implicit n ending code block/brace.

LOOP/DO - not sure what your point is here, but it's wrong: (bad quick code example, but you hget the point)

do
{
remainder = value % 10;
printf(“remainder is now: %d”, remainder);
value = value / 10;
} while (value != 0);

works for me.

What were the other arguments again?

BTW, python is also technically built 'on top of C'...yet remains a higher level language. There is nothing to say that something built on top of C can't be high level.

Whether or not AA2 is worth much, still remaisn to be seen, but the arguments 'versus BASIC' aren't valid.

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Beamish2040 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 16-Feb-2008 1:52:49
#60 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Sep-2007
Posts: 276
From: Pennsylvania, USA

I know AA2 is only a beta version but I find it a little frustrating that I can only compile for windows and wince. I also wish they had a Linux version the development kit. Still, the API seems nice and simple but I'm not sure how this is going to compete with all of the other alternatives out there.

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Answers are a prison for oneself.

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One Efika with MorphOS 2.2
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