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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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AmigaHeretic 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:09:11
#361 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@fairlanefastback

Quote:


But consider for a moment that all the work that would be required for x86 conversion would simply flip around that circumstance. Now the hardware will be cheap, but the OS will be $500 a copy because the potential user base will still be small and then that would be the only way to re-coup any expenses.

And people will still bitch and not buy. Because not only is the OS then $500, but you'll need specifically an ASUS xxxx model motherboard (as an example). People will bitch about why it needs to be that motherboard and why do they need a 2nd PC now to run as their Amiga.


I don't really think people are arguing price here. But lets say that is so.

Then what are we left with. For the same "total price" we would have:

a) Ten times more power for things like 3D design, Video Editing etc.

b) A LAPTOP!!!

c)A Netbook

etc etc etc

For the same price so many benefits and Hyperion gets like 3 times the CASH!

WooHoo!!


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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:10:54
#362 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 714
From: Arizona

@eXec

We're in total agreement there. People who buy game consoles are no more inclined to want Vista or XP ported to their consoles as they are OS4.

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DrBombcrater 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:16:39
#363 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Trev

Quote:
Back to the techincal (and the PS3, because it's my favorite PPC platform right now): A software-based graphics subsystem running on the six available SPEs would surely be faster than any Voodoo card ever produced, and would probably compete quite favorably against the older Radeon cards.*

The PS3 was originally intended to use software rendering running on the Cell. The fact that it shipped with an Nvidia GPU is testimony to the viability of that idea. I've no idea what kind of performance can actually be squeezed out of the Cell, but considering very fast x86 quad cores like the i7 and Phenom II can't even get Radeon 7000 levels of performance, I wouldn't expect too much.

And last time I checked the PS3 doesn't permit any access to the GPU whatsoever. It's not just 3D functions that are blocked, there's no 2D acceleration or video memory DMA either.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:37:32
#364 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ferrels

And the sad fact is no one outside the Amiga community will buy OS4 (for general purpose computing), regardless of what platform it runs on.

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

The PS3 was originally intended to use software rendering running on the Cell. The fact that it shipped with an Nvidia GPU is testimony to the viability of that idea.


Good point, although I'm sure the rapid pace of GPU development played some roll in the decision. When the Cell/BE was just an idea on paper, it probably could outperform what was currently available. GPUs have since gone from a few to hundreds to thousands of parallel processors. Still, I'm sure a clever software engineer (not me) could do wonderful things with the Cell. Let's wait and see what Tungsten Graphics and Lawrence Berkeley make of Gallium3D (assuming VMware doesn't kill the project).

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:40:40
#365 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@wegster

Well, kill my account then and there is one amigitian less!

All the best,

D.


Are you *really* that silly, that asking you to be CIVIL to people results in 'kill my account, then?'

If so, gladly, but that doesn't make much sense to me.

Anything further regarding Staff requests, take to PM, and not in the thread.

Thank you.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:43:37
#366 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:

$11,000 is not a lot of money. It's not like the Friedens are financing OS4 via day jobs at McDonald's (or the Belgian equivalent). EDIT: (Dear God, I hope not.)


Or, you could pay me the $11,000 USD, and I could then work on my driver full-time for a few months and make 5-6x the progress that I do now.

Hans


Good call

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:46:28
#367 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@Hans

Running a PCIe graphics card in the AmigaOne has been done before, btw. You just need a bridge.

Had the A1 supported graphics cards in the PCI slot, I would have finished the bridged riser years ago. But seeing as there was next to no market for it, I gave up on the idea.

Now we're about to see the release of the flex board, which might very well benefit from having access to newer cards. So I might think about it.

Putting both PCI and PCIe on the riser is starting to look like a dead end, since the only board that could use it like that is the SAM440ep, which already has onboard graphics.

So I'm thinking people should get a 3-slot PCI riser for their EP and a simple PCI-PCIe bridge for their flex. Whatcha think? Do I have a plan?


I think you'd make many happy, alongside of Hans drivers

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:50:01
#368 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@vision

Quote:
- I don´t think porting to X86 will add "just a few more" users. I think THOUSANDS will jump in, for the same reasons as us (or have you forgotten why do you like Amiga?): Quicker and responsive OS and also easier to use.


And then you still are missing basic apps and functionality, so how many *really* buy it again?

It's a double (or triple?) edged sword. We all (users) want OS4 on relatively cheap hardware that performs well..in other words, x86. OS4 needs functional work to really have much appeal to many outside the 'amiga world' as it is. And it needs apps. Hyperion needs to make some level of income, without throwing relatively few resources (people) into a long port to x86, which stops the others from going forward.

Nothing a few million wouldn't solve, but 'all of the above' just can't/won't happen, not at the same time, IMHO.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:56:00
#369 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@minator

Quote:
I think the real problem is people want the OS on cheap available hardware.

Quote:
There are no easy paths, no easy option.


Not that I disagree in entirety with the rest of that post, I agree with some of it, even most of it, but the above is really a good summary.

People want a reasonably priced system, with reasonable performance, NOW. (me included)

That not existing or being known to exist, many that have no idea about business, effort required, jump on the 'port it to x86 and it will solve all your problems' without really understanding some of them, or underestimating some.

And thus, the arguments continue.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:57:57
#370 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@fairlanefastback

I don't really think people are arguing price here. But lets say that is so.

Then what are we left with. For the same "total price" we would have:

a) Ten times more power for things like 3D design, Video Editing etc.

b) A LAPTOP!!!

c)A Netbook

etc etc etc

For the same price so many benefits and Hyperion gets like 3 times the CASH!

WooHoo!!




Price is part of *reality*. Something many people here don't seem to have much of an attachment to on this subject. If SAM were $100 the x86 discussion would still be present, but it would be MUCH less of a hot button issue.

Very few folks are going to shell out $500 for an OS. Even if they get more computing power because the hardware is cheaper in return.

And what about apps? Who is going to port the apps for use under OS 4.1's x86 version?

A netbook? It would take them years to port to a x86 desktop motherboard first most likely. Development for subsequent hardware would be quicker likely, but that netbook version would take months and months beyond that likely. Will you even care what a netbook is 4 and 1/2 years from now? For an OS that will still have no apps because you lost you PPC app developers who got ####ed off at the x86 change and because in the meantime where OS 4.1 x86 was being built no one made any apps for the new architecture version of the OS?

People, this is a hobby OS on hobby hardware. Unless one of the fans out there who remembers the glory days and wants them back is a millionaire willing to part with a ton of money for unfortunately a likely crappy ROI this x86 stuff is extremely unlikely to happen!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:01 AM.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:59:54
#371 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@minator

Ok, so the PPC440ep is too slow. Given more or less sensible values of too slow. We all know this.

Would an MPC8610 be adequate for the next 12 months or so, while we wait for something better? (let's say it had about the same price tag as the SAM440ep when similarly equipped). Or MUST the next system be on par with a Core2 Duo?

Just asking. Cause it's such a simple chip to route, it could actually be done in a couple of months.

EDIT: I know I promised to stay away, but seriously, suddenly someone starts asking sensible questions here, next thing you know it'll be a civilised discussion again.


Come on, you know the answer already

I suspect ANY reasonable price/performance ration hardware, that is say, ~1GHZ so can handle tasks the SAM can not, that HAS OS4 *available* for it, even if the hardware has a bit of 'Amiga tax' on the pricing, would sell.

The closer in performance you get towards 'modern,' the more 'current Amigans' would want it. The closer you get in price towards 'reasonably priced,' the more potential for new users there is.

Of course, getting OS4 on it....that's between you and Hyperion, but I'd certainly wish you luck.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 1:03:18
#372 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@fairlanefastback
Quote:
Right now the SAM is expensive and the OS cost itself is reasonable.

But consider for a moment that all the work that would be required for x86 conversion would simply flip around that circumstance. Now the hardware will be cheap, but the OS will be $500 a copy because the potential user base will still be small and then that would be the only way to re-coup any expenses.

And people will still bitch and not buy. Because not only is the OS then $500, but you'll need specifically an ASUS xxxx model motherboard (as an example). People will bitch about why it needs to be that motherboard and why do they need a 2nd PC now to run as their Amiga.

In the meanwhile the core loyalists who bought SAM and AmigaOnes and Peg2s to run OS 4.1 will be betrayed as development on PPC would be slowed.

Then they are left with just about nobody.

x86 is the way to go if you have the means. Hyperion does not appear to have the means.

You want x86, support AROS for x86. Thats the only realistic game in town for that.

Consider for a moment where Hyperion is at. Very very small firm. Has a good partner in a firm with PPC hardware that helps with distribution. Support is easily controlled by having limited hardware and good familiarity with it. Its very unlikely they have the resources to tell Acube they are going to up and go PC now. And why screw around with a mutually beneficial relationship?

x86 would *maybe* make sense if they were able to get a wealthy investor interested, or perhaps if they took their firm public. But you can only undertake something if you have the resources, and they appear not to.

I'm behind the idea conceptually. But we need to get our community's head out of the clouds on this. x86 will take a lot of $$$$ to make happen. Unlike AROS, Hyperion is a for-profit business.


Good post. Maybe a few might even try to read it

I also think OS4 is a bit overpriced (I'd price it at $100USD max), but...that's a relatively minor nit versus 'the rest' of the issues.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 1:07:45
#373 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Trev

Quote:
Back to the techincal (and the PS3, because it's my favorite PPC platform right now): A software-based graphics subsystem running on the six available SPEs would surely be faster than any Voodoo card ever produced, and would probably compete quite favorably against the older Radeon cards.* Whether OS4 ever makes an appearance on the PS3 or not, it's worth keeping your eye on PS3 Linux development.

* I have nothing to back that up. It could be and probably is hooey, but I don't think anyone here has done any high performance Cell/BE programming, so....


I tend to agree. I think some think we can go from 'utter obscurity' to 'dominate the world' in the span of a system. Even if the PS3 is not (and it wouldn't be) a system to 'bring Amiga back into mainstream' (which SO many other things would need to happen first, as well as a LOT of luck..), as a stop-gap, to actually get some copies of OS4 out there, I suspect it would sell and be quite adequate, certainly when compared to SAM, and possibly the A1s, with a few limitations (RAM, gfx...we'd see).

However, there is still the matter of the court case - no one knows what 'rules' Hyperion is playing by, if any, there, but that may well still be a consideration, no matter how much we'd like a port to 'commodity hardware,' which the PS3, minis etc all would be considered. None of those paths would go where many thing OS4 should be 'today,' but either of them would make sales, and some actual income, likely dwarfing the number of SAMs, and likely A1s, sold to date.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 1:08:18
#374 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Trev

Well, since you have decent financial resources maybe you could lend/give/invest money to Hyperion as an incentive to port OS4 to another platform?


Sure, he DID say he had too much $, no?

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Caveman 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 1:13:34
#375 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 655
From: Norway

@minator

Very well said! Totally agree! The amiga community is a very small community,and with a even smaller developer base. Moving to x86 will set us back to ArOS(software vice) To attract new users to a OS platform you really need software,which the x86 AOS would lack completely(for a long periode). So what AmigaOS need to do now is to expand to all possible PPC platforms,and in that way hopefully attract more developers. With a healthy amount of developers,then we might be capable to migrate to x86.

I would of course love to see AmigaOS 4.* on x86,but i don't think it is wise,or really feasable at the moment.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 1:23:41
#376 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 714
From: Arizona

@wegster

Yeah, and I think that OS4 could use a philanthropic touch about now. And I don't care what anyone says. $11,000 for a dev kit is crazy unless you know you're gonna make millions on whatever you're developing!

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Interesting 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 1:41:02
#377 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@ferrels

Quote:
And I don't care what anyone says. $11,000 for a dev kit is crazy unless you know you're gonna make millions on whatever you're developing!


yes, that's the point. If it was cheap then a bunch of small time sw developers would have a chance at it.

today's news however might be of interest to you!

And then you get headline-grabbers like these...

Sony Cuts PS3 from $10,250 to $2,000. The debugging Reference Tool, that is. Yeah, $10,250 mazuma for one of those bad boys. Not to be confused with the debug units we in the press use to access non-retail review discs, these things look like brick houses (see pic at top) or the sidewise desktops we used to prop our CRTs on. The new ones apparently look just like regular PS3s. The reason that drop's important, is that it's essentially Sony dialing the air with one finger and silently mouthing the words "Call me."

Link


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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 2:25:45
#378 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Interesting

Well, hey. I think the community could muster $2,000 for a dev kit for Rogue. He could put it in the break room next to the retail PS3 you all sent him. But really, anyone who can afford $1,000+ for an OS4 board can probably afford $2,000 for a PS3 dev kit.

So, $2,000 for a dev kit. That's pretty damned reasonable. It's already been noted, however, that you don't need a dev kit, although having clear hypervisor documentation (if it's included) would be a plus. You don't even need a debug unit, since there are no restrictions on the media you can load otheros.bld from. If it's FAT32 or ISO-9660 and you can hook it up to the PS3, you can get your boot loader onto the system. From there, it's entirely up to you what you do with it.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 2:29:16
#379 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ferrels

If you make even $1 on that $11,000 investment in today's financial climate, you're not doing too bad. As long as Wall Street keeps drinking the same Kool-Aid they've been drinking for the last two days, though, you might even see $2, maybe $3 return.

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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 6:35:23
#380 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

I dont think people should be using AROS as an example of how many users OS4.1 would attract on x86.

AROS is NOT amiga OS, last i looked it only ran on a crappy old x86 box and from what Ive seen most amiga heads dont view it as amiga OS at all.

If the Official OS4 was ported to dual core x86 it would be a different story to AROS. The ppc camp says oh, you people wouldnt buy it anyway...I completely disagree. Yep at $500 its not going to sell fast. But at $200, maybe $250 I believe most if not all active amiga heads worldwide would run out and buy it as soon as we could. I believe it would generate the most cash through sales hyperion/Ainc have EVER seen...

SAM has nothing going for it...nothing at all. And its a rip off. Only the most die hard amiga fan with more money than sense will buy it. Again, I think almost all of us 'worldwide' would buy a $200-$250 x86 AOS.

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