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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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PosterThread
eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 10:27:28
#721 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@TheDaddy

Quote:
Don't listen to these nutters! If PPC is still being developed stick to it! If not then port it to x86. It's simple. Hyperion, Acube and OS4.x FOREVER! MUWAHAHAHA!


Yeah...

In the year of 2525....
Sam and PPC - Ready for the future!


Hahahaha!

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Thom_Holwerda 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 10:47:18
#722 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Posts: 98
From: Warmenhuizen

Oh how you Amiga users have completely lost touch with what the Amiga was originally about.

Let's first get this ridiculous notion about PPC out of the way. The PowerPC platform is no more "Amiga" than the x86 platform. Both have absolutely zero-nada-nothing to do with the original Amiga. The PPC is no more a continuation of the 68k than x86 is. It's just utter nonsense to claim that PPC is "more Amiga" than x86.

What made the Amiga special was its custom chipset - not its processor. In fact, during the Amiga days, the 68k was the most popular platform (it sold more chips than x86), so it made sense to stick with it for the exact same reasons it makes sense to go x86 now: cheaply available parts. In any case, current PPC Amiga's are just PCs with a PPC processor.

In other words, why is a PPC machine with off-the-shelf PC parts more of an Amiga than an x86 processor with off-the-shelf PC parts?

Secondly, the original Amiga was all about delivering lots of power for a low pice. Oh the irony: people who call themselves Amigans today are arguing that underpowered and overpriced hardware is "more Amiga"!

Seriously, you Amiga "fans" have completely lost touch with what your platform was all about. It's almost hilarious to see.

Last edited by Thom_Holwerda on 27-Mar-2009 at 10:48 AM.

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 10:52:08
#723 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eXec

Quote:
In the year of 2525....
Sam and PPC - Ready for the future!
Hahahaha!


When I read things like this I get the impression that you're just here to troll...

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HenryCase 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 10:57:26
#724 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 706
From: Unknown

@Thom_Holwerda
I would expect better from the OS News owner. Very few people here are arguing that x86 is bad, the resistance is there because people are refusing to accept that the x86 port is beyond our means, i.e. we cannot afford it, Hyperion cannot afford it, simple as that. Crying like a baby is not going to change this.

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TheDaddy 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 10:58:22
#725 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@Thom_Holwerda

RISC cpu or CISC cpu...mmmhh let me think...

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Thom_Holwerda 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 11:24:58
#726 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Posts: 98
From: Warmenhuizen

@HenryCase

And I would expect better from Amiga "fans".

I've read countless posts in this thread as well as others on the subject that x86 is somehow less Amiga than PPC. My post was all about explaining that that's utter nonsense.

The financial side of things is another matter.

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Thom_Holwerda 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 11:27:29
#727 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Posts: 98
From: Warmenhuizen

@TheDaddy

Read up on RISC vs. CISC. For all intents and purposes, CISC and RISC no longer exist.

Quote:
The majority of today's processors can’t rightfully be called completely RISC or completely CISC. The two textbook architectures have evolved towards each other to such an extent that there’s no longer a clear distinction between their respective approaches to increasing performance and efficiency. To be specific, chips that implement the x86 CISC ISA have come to look a lot like chips that implement various RISC ISA’s; the instruction set architecture is the same, but under the hood it’s a whole different ball game. But this hasn't been a one-way trend. Rather, the same goes for today’s so-called RISC CPUs. They’ve added more instructions and more complexity to the point where they’re every bit as complex as their CISC counterparts. Thus the "RISC vs. CISC" debate really exists only in the minds of marketing departments and platform advocates whose purpose in creating and perpetuating this fictitious conflict is to promote their pet product by means of name-calling and sloganeering.


From Ars, ages ago.

http://arstechnica.com/cpu/4q99/risc-cisc/rvc-1.html

Last edited by Thom_Holwerda on 27-Mar-2009 at 11:28 AM.

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HenryCase 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 11:30:02
#728 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 706
From: Unknown

@Thom_Holwerda
So you're basing your comments on something you read Amiga fans say, not with respect to the context of this thread. The idea of this thread is to convince Hyperion to move to x86. Even if some do not like x86 and some do like x86 it is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much you like or dislike a processor architecture if the move is not going to happen either way. It's like arguing whether you prefer eating strawberry or chocolate ice cream on the planet Mars.

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 11:35:45
#729 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Thom_Holwerda

My apologies if I am repeating.

To somewhat state the obvious, when the OS4 endeavour began there were already PPC boards for the classic range, and thus it became a part of Amiga culture. There was always an us vs them underdog attitude in the community personified now as PPC vs x86(Wintel). Also, at the time, there were arguably technical merits to continuing the AmigaOS line on PPC. I believe the reason that Hyperion went PPC in the first place was that notion precisely, and the presence of classic PPC expansions as well. If you ever even thought of bringing up x86 with Ben Hermans he would have bitten your head off. But the market has changed significantly in all that time and most Amiga enthusiasts recognise this, and probably have for a long time. If things had gone to plan, in terms of schedule with mobos and OS, perhaps this would not be such a big issue and we would not be having this discussion.

I can only hope that the thing that Rogue thinks we will be happy about, is a port to PS3. And with dev kits going for a measly $2500 it would almost make a fanatic jump. There is no other choice that could so readily leverage the development to date. There is no other readily available PPC hardware of such power. The install base is huge. It's relatively cheap and you get a kick ass game console as well. There really is nothing cooler out there. It is a no brainer. If Sony would agree to a Linux distro they have little control over, surely they could come to terms with a private company who will keep their secrets. If Hyperion are not working on a PS3 port right now the community will dwindle to nothing. It's do or die time. The big time or bust.

Technically speaking, the PS3 makes perfect sense, as it is, as far as for computing purposes, single core. Worry about things like SMP, memory protection and other advanced features for PS4, which is sure to be backwards compatable. I would imagine the demo coding scene would return in strength and shine utilising the special features of the cell chip. And by hosting such an OS Sony might even be able to leverage some developer potential for their online offerrings. Yet again AmigaOS would exhibit it's true multimedia potential on unique and powerful hardware.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
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HenryCase 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 12:13:25
#730 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 706
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:
BigBentheAussie wrote:
If Sony would agree to a Linux distro they have little control over, surely they could come to terms with a private company who will keep their secrets.


Sony permitted Linux use from the beginning, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_3#History
"It was fully intended that you, a PS3 owner, could play games, watch movies, view photos, listen to music, and run a full-featured Linux operating system that transforms your PS3 into a home computer." That support might extend to other OSes, but it's worth noting that Linux on PS3 does not have access to the full power of the machine.

Quote:
BigBentheAussie wrote:
Technically speaking, the PS3 makes perfect sense, as it is, as far as for computing purposes, single core.


The Cell CPU in the PS3 is far from single core in operation. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)#Synergistic_Processing_Elements_.28SPE.29
"In one typical usage scenario, the system will load the SPEs with small programs (similar to threads), chaining the SPEs together to handle each step in a complex operation. For instance, a set-top box might load programs for reading a DVD, video and audio decoding, and display, and the data would be passed off from SPE to SPE until finally ending up on the TV. Another possibility is to partition the input data set and have several SPEs performing the same kind of operation in parallel."

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Gleng 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 12:22:18
#731 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Posts: 1071
From: Blighty

@BigBentheAussie

I would pretty much kill for a PS3 port. Being able to use a fun OS, and then pop a disc in and reboot in order to play the latest games would be about as Amiga as it gets for me.

Last edited by Gleng on 27-Mar-2009 at 12:22 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:09:29
#732 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@HenryCase

Quote:

HenryCase wrote:
@Thom_Holwerda
I would expect better from the OS News owner. Very few people here are arguing that x86 is bad, the resistance is there because people are refusing to accept that the x86 port is beyond our means, i.e. we cannot afford it, Hyperion cannot afford it, simple as that. Crying like a baby is not going to change this.


Oh for heavens sake.
To be perfectly clear and maybe bust your bubble of perception, it has been stated countless times in this thread that in the finacial sense of another OS port, it isn't up to the community but the powers at be, the people that own the current OS and who funded and are funding its development so far to now put those resources to use with a more future-proof and affordable H/W base and upgrade path forward.
x86 is that suggestion and here, the resons debated as to why.

It was also stated that the community, limited or not would quite possibly contribute but in no way shape or form was it a singular AMIGA community effort alone.
I myself have already explained why and how small the userbase is which is the main reasons why CUSTOM H/W is so amazingly expensive. There is no mass market for it to make large ammounts and re-coup costs.

It has also been suggested that there may be legal resons as to why x86 hasn't been expanded on so far.

Even without the immediate community being involved, a company may see that an inital outlay and high cost of codeing may outweigh "make it worth while" on the return it can expect from a port of this nature. It no longer has to wait for any H/W to become available and there a lot of base to code to if there is enough interest. the H/W is designed, tested and available. all that is needed is their product. The base doesn't care what it runs.

I myself have said on more than one occasion that maybe, just maby, this thread will rattle enough of the powers at be to reconsider and look at serious alternatives that could actually make some money without having to rely on 3rd party H/W development companies like we currently have to even look at selling their OS product.

It simply amazes me how people, including yourself, just take what they want out of a thread and push their own agenda and then make wild accusations that we all don't understand what we are talking about or see the bigger picture.

I think you need to go back and read through the debates and see at the very least, one such point why high H/W cost = low sales which does lead to higher Dev costs in the future to keep going IF IT DOES KEEP GOING!

I certainly wasn't here debating the pro for x86 paid for by "Just" the immediate AMIGA community, that's just absurd and laughable! lol.

That now being said in plain English, stop stating otherwise on my behalf at least, as someone else stated earlier about even just 50 users buying SAM would help contiubute to its dev costs, it would be silly not to take their money.

That thinking is what the AMIGA fanbase is at least willing to help contribute to help port if it is welcomed.
That is why I have pledged some money in the x86 port thread as well and certainly not to help you proove your squed views on where that money will only come from. Any decision has to first be made by the people that own the OS and are making the financial contributions now.

I can assure you the "community" wasn't the finacial contributer for AOS x.x from go to now being developed. Yes, including the PPC port.

Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:23 PM.

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Restore2003 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:16:44
#733 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2004
Posts: 438
From: Norway: The land of fjords and red trolls

Just imagine if all the lines written in this thread were actually
lines of code... Now get busy coding, we need apps instead

I will contribute with graphic design/logos if thats nescessary

_________________
If you need music for your productions, or graphics for your creations, feel free to contact me.
also check out my music at http://www.contrazt.no/records.html

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:24:01
#734 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9247
From: Greensborough, Australia

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
If you want Amiga Inc. to make AOS 5.0 for x86, start a new thread going after them on that!


Now this is downright silly, everybody knows OS5 IS for x86!! Unless you know someone who doesn't?

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whose 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:24:22
#735 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 892
From: Germany

@SHADES

I would agree with you, if there wasn´t AROS with it´s continous low interest from outside people. That´s THE point he is showing to people like you, using the bounty request. If even the people really interested in AmigaOS on x86 are so few, how should even fewer people from the outside world should help with funding enough? Have a look at his figures, they are pretty well suited to real world and then estimate, what can be reached with the help of outside people.

But try to estimate their number with real world figures (I know, a rather difficult task for you), not by using a mere dream figure of gazillion people, suddenly overwhelmingly interested in the current AmigaOS and its wall-breaking, eye-catching brand new native applications, that may exist some time in the far future...

Regards

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:24:53
#736 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Hans

Quote:

@Leo
If you're so convinced that developers will come flocking to this project, why don't you set it all up?


He keeps not answering that. Which leads me to believe more and more he is just trolling.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
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Thom_Holwerda 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:30:29
#737 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Posts: 98
From: Warmenhuizen

@whose

You do realise you just admitted that there is no value in the Amiga brand name, do you?

As fine as AROS may be, it's not Amiga. "Amiga on x86" would certainly attract a lot more attention than "AROS on x86".

I really don't know how you get to the conclusion that there is no interest in Amiga on x86. Just look at the insane amount of threads just on AmigaWorld, and all the posts they contain. Add to that the interest shown on other Amiga sites and even non-Amiga sites, and it's pretty bloody obvious that there is potential here.

But let me guess, you are rich enough and already own an A1 or a SAM?

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:33:05
#738 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@whose
Quote:

@SHADES

I would agree with you, if there wasn´t AROS with it´s continous low interest from outside people. That´s THE point he is showing to people like you, using the bounty request. If even the people really interested in AmigaOS on x86 are so few, how should even fewer people from the outside world should help with funding enough? Have a look at his figures, they are pretty well suited to real world and then estimate, what can be reached with the help of outside people.

But try to estimate their number with real world figures (I know, a rather difficult task for you), not by using a mere dream figure of gazillion people, suddenly overwhelmingly interested in the current AmigaOS and its wall-breaking, eye-catching brand new native applications, that may exist some time in the far future...

Regards


That EXACT same reason is what I put to you that it's insane to then keep that very small userbase and demand to keep AOS only for custom H/W that takes 10 times the resourses to develop. Keep building CUSTOM H/W for continued development! that's just not got sales best interests at heart.
example A) The OS struggled to see any sales at the beginning because it had to wait for this custom H/W

Where are your funds for continuation coming from now if you don't sell anything you have written?

You think this userbase is going to make further custom H/W cheaper or more expensive in the future?

Even I can see, (as difficult as it may seem) if less buy the custom H/W (because of cost) the more it will cost as less buy it. If the OS is dependant on it, well...there goes your OS too!

Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:37 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:36 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:35 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:34 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:35:58
#739 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Thom_Holwerda

Quote:

Thom_Holwerda wrote:
Oh how you Amiga users have completely lost touch with what the Amiga was originally about.

Let's first get this ridiculous notion about PPC out of the way. The PowerPC platform is no more "Amiga" than the x86 platform. Both have absolutely zero-nada-nothing to do with the original Amiga. The PPC is no more a continuation of the 68k than x86 is. It's just utter nonsense to claim that PPC is "more Amiga" than x86.

What made the Amiga special was its custom chipset - not its processor. In fact, during the Amiga days, the 68k was the most popular platform (it sold more chips than x86), so it made sense to stick with it for the exact same reasons it makes sense to go x86 now: cheaply available parts. In any case, current PPC Amiga's are just PCs with a PPC processor.

In other words, why is a PPC machine with off-the-shelf PC parts more of an Amiga than an x86 processor with off-the-shelf PC parts?

Secondly, the original Amiga was all about delivering lots of power for a low pice. Oh the irony: people who call themselves Amigans today are arguing that underpowered and overpriced hardware is "more Amiga"!

Seriously, you Amiga "fans" have completely lost touch with what your platform was all about. It's almost hilarious to see.


Who are you preaching to? I have not seen anyone say we love PPC and don't want to leave it because its more "Amiga". No one has said PPC is more Amiga. Did you even read any of the posts??

People here who have said "lets stay PPC for now" are saying it because they believe we lack the resources to make a x86 port in any reasonable amount of time. Especially considering that its makers (Hyperion) have said they are not interested at this time anyway.

In fact it would seem almost no one here objects to a x86 version, simply *if* it could be done in a reasonable amount of time and with not a terrible impact to current version customers.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 27-Mar-2009 13:39:47
#740 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9247
From: Greensborough, Australia

@eniacfoa

Quote:
I think 1-2 thousand buyers is a reasonable target to aim for with an x86 version.. I think you may find it would end up exceeding that. see my earlier posts for debate as to why AROS is not a template for what will happen if AOS goes x86.


As an interesting note I once looked up the amount of native Amithlon software in comparison to Amiga PowerPC software. It pailed to insignificance! I was shocked that Amithlon had such low support from programmers. And I know how popular it was back then. Bernie went to my club.

But now, I look at AROS and it is almost as large as any Amiga PowerPC suppoort. However, combine this with Amitlhon to bunch all the native x86 stuff together, compare it with either MorphOS or AmigaOS4 and they are almost totally destroyed!

I find this interesting. So it looks like x86 is largely supported by users, but not by programmers who prefer PowerPC on an even greater scale.

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