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vidarh
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 6-Jan-2010 17:30:32
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Joined: 4-Jan-2010 Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway) | | |
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fjudde
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 6-Jan-2010 17:47:26
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Regular Member |
Joined: 12-Mar-2003 Posts: 146
From: Stockholm/Sweden | | |
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| @ A-Eon
Quote:
Here's another thread http://www.xcore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=114
I guess there are/will be more.
people outside the community starts to take notice. Someone at A-Eon should try to sustain there attention or they might forget about it. _________________ "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein |
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DoodooHead
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 6-Jan-2010 18:11:02
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Cult Member |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 641
From: Reno, Nevada, U.S. | | |
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| @ChrisH
Quote:
I thought of this too - no need for a full-blown Catweasel! Just a simple Xorro card to act as the connector to a floppy drive. |
And an Amiga joystick interface too!_________________ Amiga user since 1985. |
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ErikBauer
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 6-Jan-2010 21:36:23
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Super Member |
Joined: 25-Feb-2004 Posts: 1141
From: Italy | | |
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| @Lynx
Quote:
Lynx wrote: @DAX Quote:
We are indeed asking how it communicates with the rest of the system |
You're right. Actually, this is THE crucial point which will decide whether Xena is a genius idea or a bad joke, and it's not really discussed on the A-Eon website.
For what we know, Xena's I/O lines are routed to the Xorro port. I hope there is more than that!
We're all (including A-Eon) talking about the Classic Amiga's custom chips, but Jay Miner and his team didn't think : "Ooooh, crap, we'll just put those chips somewhere on the board, give them some kind of vague connectivity, and programmers will do what they want with them. I, for one, don't have a clue about what they might be useful for."
So the question is (Rogue, TrevorD, if you're reading this...) Does Xena have priviledged access to memory? DMA? Can it directly access the peripherals using the southbridge? Can it send interrupts to the CPU?
In a single, somewhat provocative question :
What can Xena do that a XMOS chip embedded on a PCI-e card couldn't? |
I quote this lynx's questions, we need answers to these before arguing what will it possible to do with this new Amiga.
_________________ God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music
Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)! |
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ChrisH
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 6-Jan-2010 23:59:25
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ErikBauer Quote:
What can Xena do that a XMOS chip embedded on a PCI-e card couldn't? |
Thoughts:
1. Guarantee that every X1000 owner has an XCore chip, and that there is therefore a market for software/hardware designed to use it. If it were an add-on card, then no-one would buy it - see the failed PhysX accelerator cards in the PC market. It avoids this chicken & egg problem.
2. By coming with the system, it is there to tempt people to use it, rather than them having the barrier of having to buy an add-on card.
In theory the Classic Amiga chipset (and perhaps processor) could have been an add-on card for PCs, rather than being a whole computer. But I'm skeptical it would have been as successful. (For sake of argument, I'm assuming here that there would be no technical downsides to doing this.)Last edited by ChrisH on 07-Jan-2010 at 12:00 AM.
_________________ Author of the PortablE programming language. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue... |
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Samurai_Crow
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 0:46:03
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Elite Member |
Joined: 18-Jan-2003 Posts: 2320
From: Minnesota, USA | | |
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| @ChrisH
As Hans said in post #21 of this thread: Quote:
For low latency stuff on a traditional CPU, you stick that code straight into the interrupt service routine. It looks like the advantage is in the fact that there is hardware support for eight threads, each of which can be triggered by events (interrupts). Other than that, it still looks like interrupts. |
I suspect it's used for some of the bus-control pins. Particularly since AmigaOS has to have drivers custom written for every device we get. Why not have some of the interrupt service routines offloaded into the local-store memory of the coprocessor as a sidekick processor chip? |
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Hammer
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 1:11:52
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 6014
From: Australia | | |
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| @ChrisH
Quote:
ChrisH wrote: @ErikBauer Quote:
What can Xena do that a XMOS chip embedded on a PCI-e card couldn't? |
Thoughts:
1. Guarantee that every X1000 owner has an XCore chip, and that there is therefore a market for software/hardware designed to use it. If it were an add-on card, then no-one would buy it - see the failed PhysX accelerator cards in the PC market. It avoids this chicken & egg problem.
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PhysX accelerator was killed by NVIDIA CUDA based PhysX accelerator ._________________ Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68) Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68) Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB |
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ChrisH
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 1:42:16
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Hammer No, NVidia only put the final nail in the coffin, by buying-out Ageia. PhysX (from Ageia) never took off, and the only way they could avoid loosing masses of money was to sell it to NVidia. Last edited by ChrisH on 07-Jan-2010 at 01:42 AM.
_________________ Author of the PortablE programming language. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue... |
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Hammer
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 10:41:57
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 6014
From: Australia | | |
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| @ChrisH
Quote:
ChrisH wrote: @Hammer No, NVidia only put the final nail in the coffin, by buying-out Ageia. PhysX (from Ageia) never took off, and the only way they could avoid loosing masses of money was to sell it to NVidia.
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There's very little need for PPU with CUDA PhysX.
If you read [url= http://http.developer.nvidia.com/GPUGems3/gpugems3_ch16.html]CryEngine2[/url]
"vegetation react to global and local wind sources, and we bend not only the vegetation but also the leaves, in detail, with all computations procedurally and efficiently done on the GPU"
With CryEngine2 (Crysis), physics being done on GPU's shaders/stream processors.
DX9 vs DX10 on physics
There's very little need for PPU.Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2010 at 09:40 AM. Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jan-2010 at 10:45 AM. Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jan-2010 at 10:43 AM. Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jan-2010 at 10:42 AM.
_________________ Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68) Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68) Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB |
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Hammer
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 10:54:23
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 6014
From: Australia | | |
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| @ChrisH
Quote:
ChrisH wrote: @CodeSmith Quote:
If it's only connected to the PCIe bus, even if it's a busmaster, any PCIe graphics card will easily blow it out of the water (when's the last time you saw a card with only 8 shaders?) |
AFAIK, sending data to & from a CUDA program running on a gfx-card is a fairly expensive operation, which will have to be "batched". That implies high latency. And one of XCore's main attributes is extremely *low* latency in respoding to I/O, so (if it is wired into the mobo correctly) then it could respond much faster than any CUDA gfx-card. |
Link
"CUDA-enabled GPUs are ideal for real-time signal processing"._________________ Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68) Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68) Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB |
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DAX
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 10:59:55
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Sep-2009 Posts: 2790
From: Italy | | |
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| @Hammer The presence of Xcore does not exclude GP-GPU on the X1000 (Hans said he is very interested in OpenCL for instance), we might even have applications that handle different tasks/threads using one or the other simultaneously.
_________________ SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2 AmigaCD 32 |
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AmigaBlitter
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 12:04:02
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Elite Member |
Joined: 26-Sep-2005 Posts: 3514
From: Unknown | | |
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| @vidarh
Welcome to AW.
Just let say that we are all fallen in love with Xmos. :)
Some question: it is posssible to create the Xena on PCI. Could the Xena be used in connection with FPGA?
Again wellcome on board.
_________________ retired |
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vidarh
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 12:22:31
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Cult Member |
Joined: 4-Jan-2010 Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway) | | |
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| @AmigaBlitter
Thanks...
Quote:
Some question: it is posssible to create the Xena on PCI. Could the Xena be used in connection with FPGA?
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I don't see why not, with a couple of caveats. One is that we don't know how tightly they're integrating the on-board one. It may not be possible to achieve all the same things from one that's put on a PCI card.
If you put it on the Xorro card it is *likely* based on what they've said that you'd be able to hook the XCORE's together using "Xlink" (but again, I don't know yet for sure based on the info that's been released) which is XMOS' way of connecting the chips together using a fast, low latency protocol, in which case the Xena on the motherboard could be used as a "gatekeeper" for any resources on the motherboard it's integrated to.
As for using it in connection with an FPGA, sure - an FPGA looks like any other chip. But it'd mean a custom card, of course. I'm not sure what applications it'd be suitable for, though. Got any exciting ideas? :)
_________________ Wiki for new/returning Amiga users - Projects: ACE basic compiler / FrexxEd / Git |
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ShadesOfGrey
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 14:39:44
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Regular Member |
Joined: 25-Mar-2003 Posts: 290
From: Unknown | | |
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| Quote:
Caveman wrote: @vidarh
Would it be possible to use the xcore,as some kind of decoder for mpeg 2,mpeg 4,h265,mp3, etc. ?
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Well it certainly can be used for MP3 decoding. I haven't found anything concerning video yet. I suppose it's possible if you chain enough XCore processors together._________________ Unless otherwise explicitly stated, this message is not meant to affirm nor deny, defend nor offend any faction within the 'Amiga' Community. |
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Hans
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 7-Jan-2010 15:58:53
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Elite Member |
Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5098
From: New Zealand | | |
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| @JonathanMay
Quote:
JonathanMay wrote: Hey - I'm now allowed to post freely and will try to answer questions: I also recommend you head over to our official community if you have questions about the XMOS processor.
http://xcore.com
Just to say up-front, I don't know how the XMOS chip is coupled to the main host CPU, so can't help you out with info there.
Looking forward to seeing how this develops. |
Welcome to AW.net. It's hard to know exactly what questions to be asking. I guess that there's my what is "event driven architecture" question. What do you think the Xena (L1 XCore chip) and Xorro (the associated expansion port) would be good for? Oh, and do you have any Amiga background?
Hans
_________________ Join the Kea Campus - upgrade your skills; support my work; enjoy the Amiga corner. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - see more of my work |
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Ancalimon
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 8-Jan-2010 1:06:38
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Regular Member |
Joined: 23-Mar-2004 Posts: 433
From: Istanbul | | |
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| Here is the SID emulation video.
XMOS playing Commando.sid
I think I'll hook up some leds around my room. Really nice looking :) Last edited by Ancalimon on 08-Jan-2010 at 01:08 AM. Last edited by Ancalimon on 08-Jan-2010 at 01:07 AM.
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umisef
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 8-Jan-2010 1:33:08
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Super Member |
Joined: 19-Jun-2005 Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia | | |
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| @ShadesOfGrey
Quote:
I haven't found anything concerning video yet. I suppose it's possible if you chain enough XCore processors together. |
The best you could possibly hope for would be a streaming MJPEG decoder that outputs the video as it decodes it.
MPEG, H264 and all similar formats employ motion compensation. That requires having at least one (and these days typically two) reference frames in the decoder's memory. And 64kB just ain't gonna hold those frames for any non-trivial video resolution. |
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Caveman
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 8-Jan-2010 1:38:23
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Cult Member |
Joined: 16-Feb-2005 Posts: 655
From: Norway | | |
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| @umisef
Thanks :)
_________________
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AmigaBlitter
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 8-Jan-2010 10:48:00
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Elite Member |
Joined: 26-Sep-2005 Posts: 3514
From: Unknown | | |
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| @vidarh
Quote:
I'm not sure what applications it'd be suitable for, though. Got any exciting ideas? :) |
I'm thinking about to use a Xena card on PCI on the Sam440 Board. The Sam440 have a Lattice XP FPGA programmable on the fly with jtag connectors. I'm not an FPGA expert, but i think that this FPGA could be used with the Xena. Just wondering if a Xena card could be fitted in a PCI 33 slot. Btw, the LatticeXP could become a PCI endpoint too.
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KimmoK
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Re: XMOS - what is it all about? Posted on 8-Jan-2010 11:51:54
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2003 Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland | | |
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| @Hammer
"CUDA-enabled GPUs are ideal for real-time signal processing"
What kind of I/O do they have for that? (RF in x1?) What OS they run? (I bet they mean video signal processing, not general *.) _________________ - KimmoK // For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA // // Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer? |
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