Holy crap! Hasn't this turned in to a classic "my os is better then yours"-thread?

@Hammer
I really dont understand why you bother to keep on fighting.. I really dont think you're going to change anyones mind.

@Mikey_C:

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We have enough troubles with MOS and AROS without you adding Vs PC Debate

Now everyone is the enemy? Are we getting paranoid?

_________________
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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Hammer

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Note that WinXP has deal with administrator defined "group and name security" for its print services

Who cares, its part of its design, its had many years to come up with better ways of doing thing, it has more processor power at its disposeal, ram, cache and so on.
This is not an excuse for its poor performance.

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I didn?t say "Windows was so great" btw? Should I issue a standard disclaimer with my post?

Neverheless you are defending it, and by defending you are supporting the position it is superior, hence my frivolous but accurate phrase.

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Windows XP comes in with many different flavours i.e. Embedded, Home, Professional, Pre-Install and Media Centre. The Embedded and Pre-Install editions enables an OEM vendor to substantially modify the Windows XP edition. The Pre-Install installation can go down to 80MB.

We are not talking about all these flavours in particular, and certainly not embedded windows( a whole 80 megs you say? my god thats aweful)In any case, none of that is an ecuse for such a poor performance.

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What about the licensing issue? Note that certain academic edition enables single software copy to be installed on 3 computers.

That may be...I am sure there is some deal around the place somewhere allowing that, however many businesses are locking into windows by simply updating thier software which they are entitled to do and must do to avoid the rampant virus problem with windows and thereby get caught in the license 6 where they MUST upgrade windows every 3 years to the next version at exhorbident fees. Not to mention the MS office fees. On top of that, if the next version happens to be incompatible, then not only do they have to update the OS, but get a whole new MS office suite as well! And thats the bare tip of the iceberg.

Just because YOU may have lucked out somehow and have had windows work for you, does not mean windows in not a pile of bodgied programs kludged together that give a large number of people alot of trouble, instability, poor performance and so on.
The fact that it gets whipped by a machine as ancient as the Amiga1200 is just a simple testimony to this fact no matter what the hardware (up to date hardware) it is running.

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@Eastgrove

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Hasn't this turned in to a classic "my os is better then yours"-thread?

I was just going to post something and decided to start a thread here instead of dragging this one even farther afield.

Regards,
JCC

@EVERYONE

I want my OS4 ime stuck with inferior os,s on my A1
cant wait till the real thing is released lucky i have A1200 to keep me sane

Come on guys!

None of this crap is even remotely capable when compared to CP/M why don't you just get over yourselves already!

@Eastgrove

Quote:

I really dont understand why you bother to keep on fighting.. I really dont think you're going to change anyones mind.

You defined that as a fight? It nothing to with changing with anyones mind.

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@Hammer (and sort of everyone else)

IMHO the issues with windows revolve around Microsoft itself. I support approximately 1000 users and 100+ windows based servers for a living and have been a "windows guy" since I left the Commodore scene 10+ years ago. I've watched a steady progression in both mentality and technology when it comes to Microsoft products. NT 3.51 and 4.0 were excellent releases as far as intel platform releases of WIndows, but by no means the best OS of the time. As time has progressed from there, and Microsoft's product identity crisis/arrogance with it, the code for the OS has bloated and grown to the point where it has now become required to have ridiculous amounts of hardware to run a basic OS. Windows XP itself with a typical install consumes 124MB of RAM at idle. Microsoft Word, Outlook can consume another 60MB at idle. That's just ludicrous and reflects Microsoft's need to include the entire kitchen sink in it's products. Couple this with the fact that they have tried to "wizard" their way into the general populace and business, and you get a ticking bomb that explodes with each new virus and worm. The average techie that supports MS products in a business has no idea how to control them and that is whats killing Microsoft in the publicity area. I know this for a fact given the number of people that have abysmally failed at interviews with me lately.

As far as their support is concerned I find that I solve most of the issues that I run into with my environments before they do. My guess is that the MCSE's that they hired drove trucks or something last week and probably never used a computer during that time.

I've stated previously, I hadn't realized how much fun MS had removed from computing until I came back to the Amiga. I am not likely to drop my profession, but I am already looking at alternatives to replace their products in my environments. They have some great ideas in Redmond but I fear that in the hands of the people running the place they will never be realized to their full potential (unless of course there are more royalties to be made.)

On the development front, I find that friends of mine for many years who have developed on multiple platforms prefer to do it on nonMS platforms. Most of the time they cite the community suppport and variety of tools as reasons.

_________________
-Dal
"Stop blowing holes in my ship!!"
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@IonMane

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Who cares, its part of its design, its had many years to come up with better ways of doing thing

Please keep things into perspective there are other areas it has focused on.

Secondly, one has compromise between memory protection/multi-user/user group security and speed. This is why MS has left the HW level devices with a shared memory model.

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Neverheless you are defending it, and by defending you are supporting the position it is superior, hence my frivolous but accurate phrase.

Quote Me. Should I use MacOS X as example?

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That may be...I am sure there is some deal around the place somewhere allowing that, however many businesses are locking into windows by simply updating thier software

They could go to Sun's desktop/office solution btw...

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which they are entitled to do and must do to avoid the rampant virus problem

It would be a folly to think that any OS is immune to viruses. Think back when Amiga was at its peak. Remember the Amiga Computing?s bundled virus control programs?
What was the Amiga's user base back then (~7 million)? Now, imagine IF Amiga has 100 million users.... Anti-virus programs is provided by the third party.

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with windows and thereby get caught in the license 6

"Open License, Open License Value, Select License, Enterprise Agreement " is a subscription contract.

[/quote]
where they MUST upgrade windows every 3 years to the next version at exhorbident fees.
[/quote]
It would be illegal extract a payment for services that business didn?t request. I don't think MS would be stupid enough to breach Section 63A.

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@Hammer

Sure, but 90% of the virii that upset the computing world are due to ridiculous security flaws in Windows. One recent example is that of the RPC virus.

Cheers,
Ian

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@Dalamar

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As time has progressed from there, and Microsoft's product identity crisis/arrogance with it, the code for the OS has bloated and grown to the point where it has now become required to have ridiculous amounts of hardware to run a basic OS.

Also, as time progressed there's an increase to the product differentiation within the OS line. Note that Windows CE is available for X86.

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Microsoft Word, Outlook can consume another 60MB at idle

Why not try SUN's Star Office 6.0 if you don't like Microsoft products or Microsoft entity?

Is mentioning "Microsoft Word, Outlook" products relevant to the previous post? Why not Adobe Photoshop, Macromedia Dreamweaver Ultra Dev, Corel Office, Newtek LightWave, Sonic Foundry Vega 4.0 and 'etc'? Is there something else for this motive?

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That's just ludicrous and reflects Microsoft's need to include the entire kitchen sink in it's products.

I guess the number two in the commercial full featured desktop OS** is also guilty with this "entire kitchen sink in it's products" issue. Should I use Lindows 4.0 as an example instead of MS?

I would like point out that the Amiga was one the first mass-produced PC to have the integration mindset. X86 PC at late 80s was so bare in terms of integration. I wonder who the originally has the pro-integration concept...

**Certain BSD variant.
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Couple this with the fact that they have tried to "wizard" their way into the general populace and business,

What's wrong with "wizards"? Should the OS remain elitist?

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and you get a ticking bomb that explodes with each new virus and worm

Are you implying that an OS can be a virus/worm proof?

_________________
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@IanS

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Sure, but 90% of the virii that upset the computing world are due to ridiculous security flaws in Windows. One recent example is that of the RPC virus.

Note that, the "90%" value corresponds to desktop dominance of Windows... Exploitation is not just limited to Windows btw. Firewall?ed Windows XP should able to stop RPC hole.

Refer to (Std disclaimer:This is just illustrated as an example)
http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/linux.slapper.worm.html

One shouldn't post a non-MS OS to keep things into perspective e.g. Debian Security Advisory: DSA 430-1, DSA 429-1, DSA 428-1, DSA 427-1, DSA 426-1, DSA 425-1,DSA 424-1, 'etc').

PS; With the current situation, I'm aware that that "AmigaOS4.0"(1)(2) is best solution that vendor can offer to its target "audience".

1. When it's release.
2. Not factoring in MOS/AROS/AmigaForever/UAE/Amithlon.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Please keep things into perspective there are other areas it has focused on. Secondly, one has compromise between memory protection/multi-user/user group security and speed. This is why MS has left the HW level devices with a shared memory model.

This is simply an excuse. Group security is a laugh, and I have zero intrest why MS has chosen to go with one method over another, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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Quote Me. Should I use MacOS X as example?

Do as you want, though it is also off topic as we are not discussing MacOs X we are discussing how paltry windows is to be beaten in a specific task bu an OS/hardware combination that is 4 generations of technology older than the windows/X86 combination.It seems you have forgetten this.
My point here is that the Windows/x86 combination has NO excuse for being out performed by an A1200, not drivers, not the printers, not the installation method, NO EXCUSE. If MS cant do such a simple thing in ten years as be able to attach a printer and scanner, scan the pisture and print it out faster, clearer and with a higher quality of image as well, without having to mess around with fine tuning the system, it has no place on the desktop period. This is an example of why more and more people dislike or even hate the windows environment, and why so many people are looking for alternative but can find few due to the illegal tactics MS uses in the marketplace.

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They could go to Sun's desktop/office solution btw...

Why would they when they already have the tools they require? Moving to the sun option costs money, and no business will do that when they have the tools at thier disposeal already.ALso there is a risk involved as MS has the monopoly in this area and by simply extending the standard format they prevent all non MS office solutions from reading thier documents putting that business at a disadvantage and forcing businesses and hence home users to continue using thier products by leveraging thier monopoly.


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It would be a folly to think that any OS is immune to viruses.

Please point out where anyone said or implied that any OS was immune to viruses.
I said windows has a rampant virus problem, and most of that is due to thier extremely poor security. Macs have a sgnificant number of users as does linux, but I can remember the last virus alert for thos os's. Nor is the virus problems they have in proportion to thier number of users compared to windows.It is much less.Yet another failing of MS and why they are not worthy of our support, and another reason why people are looking for alternatives

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It would be illegal extract a payment for services that business didn?t request. I don't think MS would be stupid enough to breach Section 63A.

Well they are neatly sidestepping this issue simply because businesses are asking for extended license yet they must agree to these terms(subscription based as you said ) for those licenses, upgrade patches contain the same EULA as well and so on.Just because an action is illegal will not stop MS from doing anything.It has not in the past, and I sevrely doubt it will in the future.Of course this is yet one more reason that windows and MS do not deserve our support.

There is absolutely no way anyone can defend MS/windows on these points, it really mystifies me that anyone would even try.

Of course it is my opinion that an operating system should be nothing more than an interface that the software/user uses to interface with the hardware.This is why I think pc-dos is superior in many ways to windows, and it was certainly alot more stable.Amiga OS1.3 was even better.

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@IonMane

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This is simply an excuse. Group security is a laugh, and I have zero intrest why MS has chosen to go with one method over another, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

It has actually relevant, i.e. it?s called ?overheads?. There are additional services that are on top of the printer services. Users and groups security is use for multi-users that are on the network and on the actual PC itself.

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Do as you want, though it is also off topic as we are not discussing MacOs X we are discussing how paltry windows is to be beaten in a specific task bu an OS/hardware combination that is 4 generations of technology older than the windows/X86 combination.It seems you have forgetten this.

Note that there are additional services for users and groups? security that are top of the printer services.

In regards to Scan/Print speeds, the mainstream users just compensated by obtaining better scanner and printers.

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NO EXCUSE. If MS cant do such a simple thing in ten years as be able to attach a printer and scanner,

It was able to attach a scanner and printer without fine tuning the system btw... Are you claiming that fail printing is applicable for 100 percent of the cases?

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This is an example of why more and more people dislike or even hate the windows environment,

It's to interesting to note that Lindows 4.0 is a lot closer to Windows in regards to ?look and feel?. The you have Cross-Office, MONO (.NET), WINE/WINE-X and 'etc' . These duplicate the Window?s eco-system.

The development of cloned Windows ecosystems may indicates the following;
1. they hate close source operating system but likes Windows ecosystem.
2. hate the company who made Windows.

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@IonMane

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Please point out where anyone said or implied that any OS was immune to viruses.

They associate virus issues with Windows specifically. Didn?t they know that all operating system isn't virus proof? Define "sgnificant number of users"...

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Why would they when they already have the tools they require?

Note that Microsoft has subscription licensing models. This is not much different to Lindows or to any subscription based Linux services in terms of concept. There?s always the boxed retail version or OEM editions.

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Moving to the sun option costs money,

Not much different if the business is maintaining a subscription payment. The difference here is the cost amount. It's up to individual business to make a judgement on that.

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ALso there is a risk involved as MS has the monopoly in this area and by simply extending the standard format they prevent all non MS office solutions from reading thier documents putting that business at a disadvantage and forcing businesses and hence home users to continue using thier products by leveraging thier monopoly.

You just contradicted yourself i.e. IF they hated Windows based solution then they should have migrated to non-Windows ecosystem some time ago.

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Well they are neatly sidestepping this issue simply because businesses are asking for extended license yet they must agree to these terms(subscription based as you said ) for those licenses, upgrade patches contain the same EULA as well and so on.

One should read the fine print before signing any long term contracts.

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Just because an action is illegal will not stop MS from doing anything.

IF they are clearly in breach of Trade Practises Act (e.g. Part V, S52, S53) then they will be in trouble. One has prove IF they are in of that act.

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It has not in the past, and I sevrely doubt it will in the future.Of course this is yet one more reason that windows and MS do not deserve our support.

Note that you contradicted yourself i.e. "Moving to the sun option costs money,?


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as does linux,

For the desktop market, about 5 to 7 percent as I recall.

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I said windows has a rampant virus problem and most of that is due to their extremely poor security.

Do you really want me to post Linux 2004 virus and security issues?

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@Hammer

.....Now, boys, play nice or I'll have to remove you all from the sandbox.

Does anybody remember what this thread was supposed to be about??

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@Hammer

Quote:

Why not try SUN's Star Office 6.0 if you don't like Microsoft products or Microsoft entity?

Have you ever tried to convince the CIO of the company that the "standard" office product should be replaced with something that would involve retraining the entire company and would put us in a position of not being able to simply send attachments to our business partners without some sort of conversion because they all use Office?

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I guess the number two in the commercial full featured desktop OS** is also guilty with this "entire kitchen sink in it's products" issue.

I never stated that MS was the only vendor to do this, merely that they are the best at it.

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What's wrong with "wizards"? Should the OS remain elitist?

Ah. If elitist is the term you would apply to a person who understands the implications of sticking a server on the internet, or installing some service on a server, then yes, I would. A wizard to me does little to add value to any employee that works for me because there is no "Welcome to Fix My Server wizard" when my production apps all crash, and there most certainly isn't a wizard to cover my exposure to every possible server misconfiguration. Wizards do not encourge admins to learn about what the wizard is doing, nor does it encourage them to understand the concepts behind the OS they are running. I've seen it in production time and time again, and it shows no sign of getting better with the 2003 release of the server line. Already I have interviewed many people that have been unable to explain what the wizard is doing and how to fix something when it goes wrong because MS hasn't written a wizard to fix it yet. [EDIT] This statement applies to users of home PC's as well. MS puts a lot of junk on the system that exposes a user to the perils of online life. I blame Microsoft for this. If you are going to make a wizard for home PC's, make it broad and all encompassing then or prepare for the wrath of the public when everyone is hit.

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Are you implying that an OS can be a virus/worm proof?

That would be a ludicrous claim. I merely maintain my position that because of the previous issue, MS is more prone to it than any other vendor because the people that use it haven't got a clue sometimes what they are exposing themselves to, both personally and professionally. Ask your grandmother if she has a firewall installed.

_________________
-Dal
"Stop blowing holes in my ship!!"
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And yes, I would say we've strayed a tad off subject.

_________________
-Dal
"Stop blowing holes in my ship!!"
---------------------------------

@Dalamar

Quote:

Have you ever tried to convince the CIO of the company that the "standard" office product should be replaced with something that would involve retraining the entire company and would put us in a position of not being able to simply send attachments to our business partners without some sort of conversion because they all use Office?

You just contradicted yourself in regards to your statement about migrating to the Amiga. IF one doesn't like MS then one can migrate to the alternatives. The CIO is in position to do what they want.

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I never stated that MS was the only vendor to do this, merely that they are the best at it.

By itself is debateable, i.e. MacOS X 10.3 rivals Windows XP-SP1 in terms of feature set.

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Ah. If elitist is the term you would apply to a person who understands the implications of sticking a server on the internet, or installing some service on a server, then yes, I would. A wizard to me does little to add value to any employee that works for me because there is no "Welcome to Fix My Server wizard" when my production apps all crash, and there most certainly isn't a wizard to cover my exposure to every possible server misconfiguration. Wizards do not encourge admins to learn about what the wizard is doing, nor does it encourage them to understand the concepts behind the OS they are running. I've seen it in production time and time again, and it shows no sign of getting better with the 2003 release of the server line. Already I have interviewed many people that have been unable to explain what the wizard is doing and how to fix something when it goes wrong because MS hasn't written a wizard to fix it yet.

The "wizards" is just aids/support for the 'user'. Wizards are limited to the scope that they are designed in.

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That would be a ludicrous claim. I merely maintain my position that because of the previous issue, MS is more prone to it than any other vendor because the people that use it haven't got a clue sometimes what they are exposing themselves to, both personally and professionally. Ask your grandmother if she has a firewall installed.

It's a people issue. How many Linux servers are out in the wild that are still running Red Hat 6.2? It?s not much different to Amiga game junkie who copies games/exchange binaries and occasionally gets hit with a computer virus.

Does any know IF there?s going to be an anti-virus controller for AmigaOS 4.0 native?

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@Dalamar

Why not think of it as a feature wish list for AmigaOS4.X, middleware infrastructure and supporting applications?

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