@cha05e90


If you didn't mean there to be any disrespect you might want to think a little harder before you type.

However that being said you might want to keep an eye on emumiga.com.


Manu's point if I'm correct is the same as most people's we like the feel of an amiga system. However we don't need the old apps to prove that it's an amiga to us. Sure it would be great to have them fully integrated. Some day maybe. Me personally I'll have little use for them.

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while its true, that aros now has got some useful native apps, but that wasnt the true a few years ago. could you use aros in 2003 for anything? no. in 2005? still no. why? coz it had no sw. no 68k compatibility, no native apps. while you could use mos or os4 even with only 68k apps in those times. compatibility with legacy apps can fill the gaps in native sw library and you can use your old favorite apps like they were native. i still use ib fe (posting with it even right now:) and you cant use it with aros. same with anr, amirc, makecd, atc, etc...:) there are still plenyt of useful 68k apps with no native counterparts for any of the nexgen amiga-like systems.

even with those nativa aros apps you've mentioned (owb, wookie, etc..) aros library is very very thin, and all of them can be found on os4 or mos except 1-2. i can use morphos for more thing than aros and thats because of very good legacy compatibility. while aros uae solution is not bad its miles away from mos' or os4's jit 68k emu (can you use 68k mui apps with zune fe?).

the fact that there is janusuae for aros shows that theres a need for legacy compatibility in aros, and it was a big show stopper for many many amigans in the past, that aros doesnt have. if aros could get 68k emu in the past it probably would be the most advanced and popular amiga flavour today.

and claiming that every old 68k app is crap is bs, and just look at the many threads in amiga fora about favorite and still used 68k apps. amigans just love them good ol' apps:)

i wish succes for aros, really, and i hope it will reach a level where morphos is at or even better, but its a long long way there:)

@ncafferkey

GUI and graphics not work on the AROS as on the Amiga OS 3, Amiga OS 4, MorphOS.
And only that counts.

We keep discussing applications for each of the platforms, but what I really want to know is what is missing.

If I was trying to convince existing Amiga fans to switch to the AROS camp, or any other for that matter, I would start by doing a software comparison with the other Amiga platforms. I would base it on the the best software for each type of software application or genre. Only once that is done, should we begin reviewing each of the solutions against that of the other platforms.

I would compare the best available *native* programs for word-processing, spreadsheets, presentations, browsing, e-mailing, instant messaging, databases, text editing, C/C++ IDE, painting, 3d Rendering, file management, playing audio and video media formats and DVD, music creation, CD/DVD burning/ripping etc.

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 21-Feb-2010 at 02:43 PM.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
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I have created a table for a member of each camp to fill out.
Only people who own and use those systems should fill this in. It is created with the SMALL and then PRE tag. Please use a text editor and use overwrite, as all spaces are rendered. Feel free to add genres at the end. I have added 68k as a basis for comparison as all platforms should be able to run it in some manner. If you are filling it in, please post to notify so as not to duplicate effort.

Thank you.

GENRE             |AmigaOS3(68k)       |Amiga OS4           |MorphOS             |AROS  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Word-processing   |                    |                    |                    |                    
Spreadsheets      |                    |                    |                    |                    
Presentations     |                    |                    |                    |                    
Browsing          |                    |                    |                    |                    
E-mailing         |                    |                    |                    |                    
Instant Messaging |                    |                    |                    |                    
Databases         |                    |                    |                    |                    
Text Editing      |                    |                    |                    |                    
C/C++ IDE         |                    |                    |                    |                    
Painting          |                    |                    |                    |                    
Printing          |                    |                    |                    |                    
3D Rendering      |                    |                    |                    |                    
File Management   |                    |                    |                    |                    
Playing Audio     |                    |                    |                    |                    
Playing Video     |                    |                    |                    |                    
Playing DVD       |                    |                    |                    |                    
Editing Audio     |                    |                    |                    |                    
Editing Video     |                    |                    |                    |                    
Music Creation    |                    |                    |                    |                    
Sound Sampling    |                    |                    |                    |                    
CD/DVD burn/rip   |                    |                    |                    |                    
Torrents          |                    |                    |                    |                    
Youtube           |                    |                    |                    |                    
PDF Viewing       |                    |                    |                    |                    

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 21-Feb-2010 at 03:02 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 21-Feb-2010 at 02:54 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 21-Feb-2010 at 02:50 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 21-Feb-2010 at 02:47 PM.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
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@BigBentheAussie
Good idea.

@thread
I haven't followed the whole thread, but reading through the last few pages it seems one thing has been overlooked in the discussion, and that's EMUMIGA, which essentially promises to be AROS' Petunia/Trance:
http://emumiga.com/about/

JanusUAE will give AROS the best UAE integration, and EMUMIGA will give AROS the JIT emulation approach, so all bases will be covered. What will you complain about then?

@HenryCase

Quote:

EMUMIGA will give AROS the JIT emulation approach

Where did you get that from? JIT isn't mentioned on the site as far as I can see.
You will get a speed up from the native libraries though.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

BigBentheAussie wrote: @HenryCase Quote: EMUMIGA will give AROS the JIT emulation approach Where did you get that from? JIT isn't mentioned on the site as far as I can see.

I got the information from the website...
Quote:

Emumiga is a Motorola MC68000 emulator and a system interface proxy for AROS.

What do you think a JIT is? There's little point emulating an MC68000 if you're not passing instructions to it on the fly.

@BigBentheAussie

Even if it doesn't bring JIT right away it does bring integrated 68K emulation in the same style of trance or petunia. I'm sure JIT can be added in the same way it was added to Petunia eventually.

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@HenryCase

JIT is merely a way of speeding up Emulation... if you run UAE on an intel without it you will see a dramatic decrease in speed. So his point I'm sure was that since emumiga.com didn't specifically state that they were working on JIT that it would merely be a standard(translation) emulation(which is much slower then JIT)...

Last edited by terminills on 21-Feb-2010 at 04:19 PM.

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@Hisoka999

Quote:

You need to look in the future and not staying in the past, the ppc is dead in the desktop/laptop world.

agree......................


Quote:

Give the user what they want and not what you want,

agree...............%100

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@terminills

Quote:

terminills wrote: @HenryCase JIT is merely a way of speeding up Emulation... if you run UAE on an intel without it you will see a dramatic decrease in speed. So his point I'm sure was that since emumiga.com didn't specifically state that they were working on JIT that it would merely be a stadard emulation(which is much slower then JIT)...

Why do you propose the MC68000 is being emulated in Emumiga then? The only way I can see this making sense is if you were passing instructions to it at runtime (though it has uses in static code analysis too).

As far as I understand, a 68k JIT is a translation layer that converts 68k opcodes into native opcodes at runtime. That sounds like a MC68000 emulator to me.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

@HenryCase


Since I obviously can't explain the difference.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIT_compiler



JIT is a type of emulation but you can have emulation without JIT.

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@phase5fan

Quote:

Without testing the m68k software AROS will never be compatible.

Once you recompile an AmigaOS 3.x application source into an AROS executable binary file, and the operation succeeds, that's exactly the compatibility level AROS is aiming to. That's written on the AROS homepage since 1995 or so. If I need binary compatibility, i PREFER straight emulation of the whole AmigaOS ambient, since it's the only one which assures the best compatibility so far. Amiga Forever costs me less than 10 euros, while AmigaOS and MorphOS are much more expensive, not counting the (new) hardware I need for them. You could buy a Mac for only 90 euros? Well, I can get a PC with similar performances almost for FREE. Sorry for you: there's absolutely no glory and no comparison possible when talking about performance/price ratio and availability.

Quote:

Unfortunately, this hardware is not much much much more faster. And what is worse for you, applications that need the performance, Games and Multimedia, usually use API which is common for MS Windows, Linux, Amiga OS (for ex. OpenGL ). Writing such applications for AROS does not make any sense.

Unluckily for you, this hardware *is* much much much more faster. Your pathetic Nbench result just says a G4 is faster than an Atom in the specific operations Nbench executable does. Unluckily for you, Nbench also states that a G4 is faster than a Power6, as someone else pointed out, which should at least bring to attention of a clever guy that there's something wrong in Nbench, and maybe it's not a benchmark we should trust anymore (as like as you wouldn't use 3D Marks 2001 to compare a GeForce 8000 with a Radeon HD5000 card).

You also completely miss that a system is not composed by its processor anymore, but there are many actors like BUS transfer speeds, GPU model, quantity and kind of VRAM, system RAM speed and drive access. GPUs are quite important right now, and using OpenGL on AROS applications MAKES SENSE, simply because right now AROS it's the only AmigaOS clone having full MESA (OpenGL) implementation, even hardware accelerated on GeForce 5000, 6000 and 7000 cards.

@HenryCase

Quote:

That sounds like a MC68000 emulator to me.

no its more like having some C source code you translate in machine code using a compiler.

JIT (Just In Time) converts chunks of machine code before it executed, the machine code can be reused until its flushed.

None emulators also used this technique, like flash amd java.

Emulation often referaces to full machine emulation, and not to emulate a type of CPU, emulate means to imitate a behavior, JIT is technique some times used to achieve this, but is not emulation by definition.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Feb-2010 at 04:14 PM.

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@terminills

Quote:

terminills wrote: JIT is a type of emulation but you can have emulation without JIT.

I knew that already.

However, I think I get what the difference is now, so the main difference between a 68k JIT+emulator and a 68k emulator without JIT is the JIT will translate more than just one instruction at a time, with the translation of larger blocks leading to speed increases?

If the above is true, then I agree with what you said before, Emumiga will be a stepping stone towards an AROS 68k JIT even if it is not necessarily one right now.

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

I would compare the best available *native* programs

There is no reason to make difference between 68k and native applications in AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS.

OS4:
word-processing: AbiWord
spreadsheets: Gnumeric, Turbocalc
presentations: PointRider, Hollywood
3d Rendering: Blender, (and others like Cinema 4D)
playing audio and video media formats: DvPlayer, Tunenet
paint/drawing: PPaint, TvPaint, (etc.)

@HenryCase

Quote:

However, I think I get what the difference is now, so the main difference between a 68k JIT+emulator and a 68k emulator without JIT is the JIT will translate more than just one instruction at a time, with the translation of larger blocks leading to speed increases?

An emulator without a JIT doesn't translate *any* instructions. It emulates them directly.

Say, for example, the instruction is the equivalent of MOVE.L #0, D0. An emulator without a JIT will decode that instruction, and may call a bit of code that will move the value 0 to some memory location it uses as D0. It will never translate the instruction into anything but decode and figure out what to do every time.

A JIT, on the other hand, would at some point during runtime before getting to that instruction translate it into an instruction the CPU can run directly. So on x86 for example, MOVE.L #0, D0 might end up getting translated into "movl $0,%eax" (simplified - in reality a single source instruction will often need multiple target instructions for accurate emulation) once, and just get executed directly by the CPU every time execution reaches that location afterwards.

The speed increase come from doing far less work per instruction on average, though the JIT often does far more work the first time it sees a block of code.

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@cha05e90
Quote:

Hm - my intention was of course not to disrespect anybodies hard work (but feel free to interpret it your way) but I DO disrespect people who want to sell me or others something as a solution that it isn't.

If somebody would tell you that the programs you make are crap would you take that as a compliment ? I guess not. You can disrespect me and the whole AROS team all you want but REALLY no one is selling you anything. On the otherhand it costs you a DVD/CD to try it out on a PC you might already have. AROS is an Amiga like OS wether you like it or not.

Quote:

Without going to deep into thread digging - you find always people (and it is NOT the hard working UAE-AROS/Janus maintainer - he knows better!) that try to convince people of AROS by telling them 68k legacy support is no problem, because blablabla... This does NOT mean that it can't be done - when someone's able to run a decent 68k MUI application that uses transparently the local x86 Zune libs - then it's done. But until...

And it's not a problem my AROS runs DPaint as good as your MOS does. I can be every single bit creative on DPaint run on AROS as I can be on DPaint on a OS4/MOS system. You might not like the way it's handled (needing a Amiga Forever CD and all that) but in no way it's any different using the application.

Quote:

Ok, point taken. You use Windows. But for what do you need AROS then - an AmigaOS3.x API compatible operating system???? With hundreds of man hours for re-engineering AmigaOS parts, MUI and so on... Sorry, I can not follow you here...

As a hobby first of all. And I like to use an OS for a change that feels like Amiga. It's my personal belief that the worst thing happened in Amiga's history when they stubbornly kept backing PPC instead of going x86. Now that there is AROS that tries to do exactly that what i believe in then I want to back that horse. OS4 and MOS can go whatever way they want. It's no interest of mine until they hit mainstream x86 hardware. Then I'll be glad to have another look. You only live once and I try use Windows / Linux and wathever comes in my way as long as I walk on this earth.

What I can't understand is that people complain about other people that would want Amiga OS on x86. And when that exact people moves on and starts backing AROS then the people tries to badtalk spread FUD about how bad AROS is. What are you afraid of ?

Why the constant need to tell us in the face how bad AROS is how it's lacking this and that. Does it make your alternative look better ? Yes I guess so,. Well, go to next Windows/Linux forum then and convince them too. Would they laugh at you ? Bet they would. What conclusion can we draw from that ? Yes we are all MOS.OS4, AROS in the same boat. So can't we just stop picking on each other ?

Quote:

No, I don't have problems with AROS. But indeed I have concernings about some people.

And who is that "some people"? I usally never go into OS4 threads and bash OS4 and if I ever did I apologise.

Last edited by Manu on 21-Feb-2010 at 08:24 PM.

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Don't know if this was meant as a reply to me but I take it as such.

Quote:

$adddam wrote: while its true, that aros now has got some useful native apps, but that wasnt the true a few years ago. could you use aros in 2003 for anything? no. in 2005? still no. why? coz it had no sw. no 68k compatibility, no native apps. while you could use mos or os4 even with only 68k apps in those times.

Why do we need to go back all those years and look at how useless AROS was then ? Things evolve. Should we look at AmigaOS and MorphOS too and look at all those years that has passed and how they failed to sell to the masses. How the Amiga userbase has shrinked instead of growed ? What use is that ? It has nothing to do with 68K compability but it has all to do with native apps and the overall maturity of the OS, webstuff, browser(OWB) etc..
Quote:

compatibility with legacy apps can fill the gaps in native sw library and you can use your old favorite apps like they were native. i still use ib fe (posting with it even right now:) and you cant use it with aros. same with anr, amirc, makecd, atc, etc...:) there are still plenyt of useful 68k apps with no native counterparts for any of the nexgen amiga-like systems.

Yes I hear you. It's great you can use all your old apps. But do you hear me ? I want to look the other way. I want usable apps to be ported to AROS so I have one reason less to boot into Windows.
Quote:

even with those nativa aros apps you've mentioned (owb, wookie, etc..) aros library is very very thin, and all of them can be found on os4 or mos except 1-2. i can use morphos for more thing than aros and thats because of very good legacy compatibility. while aros uae solution is not bad its miles away from mos' or os4's jit 68k emu (can you use 68k mui apps with zune fe?).

But MOS or OS4 doesn't run on my PC i have on my desk so they are usless to me. I want to have one computer at home and not two, plus a laptop.

Quote:

the fact that there is janusuae for aros shows that theres a need for legacy compatibility in aros, and it was a big show stopper for many many amigans in the past, that aros doesnt have. if aros could get 68k emu in the past it probably would be the most advanced and popular amiga flavour today.

It's probably true. And I am glad the day Ol1 finnishes it because it gives more choice to AROS people. It's all about choice because everyone of us wants to do different things. And as I said earlier I think I'll mostly run Demos and Games on JUAE but sure I may fire up an old application now and then.

Quote:

and claiming that every old 68k app is crap is bs, and just look at the many threads in amiga fora about favorite and still used 68k apps. amigans just love them good ol' apps:)

I never said they are crap. I said I have moved on. I rather learn a new application than struggle with the old. I also glad that people can run them if they want.

Quote:

i wish succes for aros, really, and i hope it will reach a level where morphos is at or even better, but its a long long way there:)

Thanks, I agree with every single word. And you said that in a good way and not in a "in your face way". I respect that.

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