@Antique

Quote:

Why all the preaching of open source?????? Even something is open source doesn't automaticaly mean it will be a huge success.

Nor does Open Source means you can't make a profit off of it. Problem is for our tiny community that is shrinking, it's way below viable economic threshold and it's competing against far more mature Open Source OS that multiple industries are pushing.

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Dammy

@Leo

Quote:

AROS is as old as AmigaOS 3.1 is on a lot of points: no SMP, no memory protection, no resource tracking. On these points, it's as advanced as Windows 95 was. Same as MacOS classic.

Cannot believe you lumped AmigaOS in with that piece of junk MacOS classic. The best thing Apple did was to dump it and get a proper OS in MacOSX, now at least that have an OS. Original MacOS was as technically less advanced than Windows3.1 and Amiga was always way ahead technically if not in marketing terms.

I wanted to launch Amiga Foundation to do exactly what you propose but whilst users were positive, the main players in the NON Aros camps politely either told me to sod off or ignored me.

But seriously Leo, unless the community stops doing what is happening in this thread nobody will invest the effort or money to do what you suggest.

I am typing this on nice little Acer 150 net book running a pretty stable Aros. For now lets finish off the 3.1 objective as quick as possible and then we can plan all the work we know needs doing.

_________________
Amiga 1000, 3000D Toaster, Checkmate A1500 Plus
http://www.checkmate1500plus.com/

@clusteruk

Quote:

Cannot believe you lumped AmigaOS in with that piece of junk MacOS classic.

Never mind AmigaOS, it just shouldn't happen to any pre-emptive multitasking OS!

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@clusteruk

Quote:

I wanted to launch Amiga Foundation to do exactly what you propose but whilst users were positive, the main players in the NON Aros camps politely either told me to sod off or ignored me.

Why am I not surprised in the least?

_________________
Dammy

@clusteruk: don't you think AmigaOS is a "piece of junk" today too ? Seriously... it's really outdated, doesn't support what today's CPU's have to offer (no 64bit support no smp, no resource tracking, no virtual memory, no virtualization support,...). And can be brought down in a matter of seconds. MacOS classic was for sure less advanced, but both play in the same camp now: outdated and old OS.

The thing is I can run OS3.x just fine with UAE right now, even with 3D acceleration. So: what's the point of running it native ?

- The ability to play 10 lo-res videos at the same time ? When AROS was created, maybe 15 years ago, having 3.1 compatibility as a main goal sounded logical (by then, there were no MorphOS, not to talk about OS4, and we didn't know what would happen with CBM/AmigaOS), but today, 15 years ago: does this goal still sound logical ?

- The ability to run AROS on some laptop ? Well, again, UAE will run just fine... and do you want to play 10 videos at the same time on a laptop too ?

I really think they should reconsider their roadmap, and ask the good questions: where are we going ? why ? etc... instead of just having the ship head toward any bounty created by the community (UAE ? ok, let's go for it... PPC port ? ok, let's turn left, could be interesting... wooopps! Where are we ?! damn it! an iceberg :p)

Last edited by Leo on 28-Mar-2010 at 05:58 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 28-Mar-2010 at 05:58 PM.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

Quote:

- The ability to run AROS on some laptop ? Well, again, UAE will run just fine... and do you want to play 10 videos at the same time on a laptop too ?

You might not have noticed but in a laptop is where a resource efficient environment makes more sense, therefore emulation isn't a sensible option.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Leo

So what Amiga like system DO you like ??
I get the feeling the answer is none....

If so, what are you doing here ?

_________________
Theres a time to live and a time to die
When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying

Quote:

You might not have noticed but in a laptop is where a resource efficient environment makes more sense, therefore emulation isn't a sensible option.

Efficiency ? You'd better run UAE on a system supporting ACPI than AROS...

Quote:

So what Amiga like system DO you like ??

I do like all... But I like playing with it, not making serious work. I wish I could do real work though, and wouldn't have to fear my mouse pointer has frozen because some program brought everything down. This isn't acceptable in 2010.

So, because I do like it I shouldn't hope for something new and more modern ?

Last edited by Leo on 28-Mar-2010 at 06:28 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 28-Mar-2010 at 06:23 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

I'd rather see AROS supporting it then preaching the use of an emulator over a ACPI enabled host.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @Leo I'd rather see AROS supporting it then preaching the use of an emulator over a ACPI enabled host.

Most people are going to using emulation for what, games?

_________________
Dammy

@Leo

Quote:

@clusteruk: don't you think AmigaOS is a "piece of junk" today too ? Seriously... it's really outdated, doesn't support what today's CPU's have to offer (no 64bit support no smp, no resource tracking, no virtual memory, no virtualization support,...). And can be brought down in a matter of seconds. MacOS classic was for sure less advanced, but both play in the same camp now: outdated and old OS.

Well I will resist my first reaction to this comment about AmigaOS being junk.

Simple answer is no, it is not junk, even today it is a great small and efficient OS that can do most things that the computer junky like me wants to do, but not all.

I agree with you on only two points. One day all amiga flavours need a more advanced kernal with some kind of memory protection and multple core support either by SMP or OpenCL. I actually think OpenCL would be easier, safer and more efficient and leap ahead of the others if done well.

However, you forget one massive problem that most coders have not got there heads around properly and that is TRUE multi threaded programming and all these OS's that are ready for it the vast majority of coders are not. That is a fact and I am an average windows coder and I have to make the leap one day to support this new technology.

So for now I want memory protection asap but smp can wait for me if we get OpenCL which if written well should not break OS.

But as a sign of respect to all those who created the Amiga including those no longer here don't call AmigaOS junk, call it outdated, call it behind the times but not junk.

Steve

Last edited by clusteruk on 28-Mar-2010 at 07:00 PM.

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Amiga 1000, 3000D Toaster, Checkmate A1500 Plus
http://www.checkmate1500plus.com/

@Leo: Not everyone wants to use Windows only to start AmigaOS3.X in an emulation. I prefer a native Amiga-like-OS on my Netbook (AROS) and a second OS (Linux) as Dual-boot option.

>don't you think AmigaOS is a "piece of junk" today too ?

No. If you think, that AmigaOS is "junk", than you are in the wrong forum.

Last edited by AP on 28-Mar-2010 at 07:06 PM.

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AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@Leo

I don't know what you are talking about (or, for that matter, maybe you don't)
My mousepointer (OS4.1.1) does never freeze, my XP pointer on the other hand.... Well, let's not go there....

Oh, and for what OS is crap, well... let's not go there either....

Last edited by Metalheart on 28-Mar-2010 at 07:24 PM.

_________________
Theres a time to live and a time to die
When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying

What is the future of UAE ? I don't want emulation I want native OS. Why ? Cause it's much faster. It boots faster than any of the big OS. It have most programs I need even if there are some things like flash not supported yet. It has a future, cause its is an alternative.
As said before it's the software that might get the OS unstable. The OS itself is stable and when used with stable software it never crash. Even if it did crash once awhile I don't care. Just reboot in 10sec Mem.. protection is not that sweet either. When software crash and you want to bring the OS back it might take long time and the OS might be very slow after than. Many time I just reboot even if OS have mem.. protection.

Even if other OS is mush more advanced, I like the simplicity of Amiga OS.

It's strange then that people come all the time saying they miss AMiga OS.
There must be something right.
I love the way Amiga OS is.

Damocles: I feel you are getting old and bitter. I don't know why and how you became so much against everything about Amiga OS. I don't see why you still comment so much. It does not help. Its just destructive. We need good spirit here.

We might be a bunch of fanatics. No matter what this is what I like to have as my hobby. I love everything about AMiga OS, AROS and nothing is going to make me change my opinion about that.

I don't want to change API. If I don't have DOpus and MUI (zune) I think we are on the wrong track.
We must be compatible with AMiga OS.

Last edited by nikosidis on 28-Mar-2010 at 08:11 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 28-Mar-2010 at 08:10 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 28-Mar-2010 at 08:09 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 28-Mar-2010 at 08:08 PM.

Quote:

However, you forget one massive problem that most coders have not got there heads around properly and that is TRUE multi threaded programming and all these OS's that are ready for it the vast majority of coders are not. That is a fact and I am an average windows coder and I have to make the leap one day to support this new technology.

Do you mean Haiku isn't multi-threaded ? Do you mean all these Windows, Mac, Linux multithreaded apps don't make use of the multiple cores.

Well, yes, most OS were not designed with so many cores in head... And yes, most will need to be rewritten as cores are being doubled each two years or so. But saying that won't make the AmigaOS any better...

As for the respect, it's ok to call MacOS junk, but it's not to call AmigaOS junk ? I'm as respectful as you are... AmigaOS is as outdated as classic MacOS is. Having a preemptive kernel won't change all the other flaws...

Quote:

We must be compatible with AMiga OS.

When compatibility becomes an obstacle to evolution, I'd rather leave it behind. Be it Amiga or anything else...

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

Quote:

When compatibility becomes an obstacle to evolution, I'd rather leave it behind

No one is stopping you from leaving AmigaOS behind, and I stand by my comment about the original MacOS it was at best as advanced as Windows3.1, and AmgaOS was on a par if not better in some ways than win95. But Windows improved and had memory protection but Amiga stagnated because nobody took up the challenge to improve it even Hyperion have not really improved it that much.

Now we are with Aros getting an AmigaOS 3.1 system finished on many platforms and then we will continue to push it where Amiga OS should have gone, but it will take time.

Good things come to those who wait and I have waited too long not to do my bit by supporting the platform I am passionate about, and to get it to where I want it to be.

So give the people who create these nice systems a break.

_________________
Amiga 1000, 3000D Toaster, Checkmate A1500 Plus
http://www.checkmate1500plus.com/

Quote:

Leo wrote: Well, yes, most OS were not designed with so many cores in head... And yes, most will need to be rewritten as cores are being doubled each two years or so. But saying that won't make the AmigaOS any better...

Nope, it's not as simple as that. The threading model of multiprocessing is a kludge, there is a lot of work still being done to make SMP efficient and easier to develop for, new programming approaches are on their way but they're years away from being mainstream, work is still very much at the computer labs level right now AFAICT. This paper is called The Problem With Threads, it should help you understand the situation SMP is in right now:
http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-1.html

Quote:

clusteruk wrote: Now we are with Aros getting an AmigaOS 3.1 system finished on many platforms and then we will continue to push it where Amiga OS should have gone, but it will take time. Good things come to those who wait and I have waited too long not to do my bit by supporting the platform I am passionate about, and to get it to where I want it to be.

Exactly, nobody is saying we can't have new features in the future, being realistic means facing the fact that our developers only have limited free time, so we either have to be patient, or start learning to develop software ourselves (which isn't that hard really, plus you get help from more knowledgable people when you get stuck).

Last edited by HenryCase on 28-Mar-2010 at 10:15 PM.

@Leo

Your statements are a waste of time. We all know the things Aros is lacking but the users such as myself know these temporary limitations and still continue to enjoy what it CURRENTLY provides.

I guess i could be as ignorant as you and register in Haiku forums and start complaining about something Haiku is missing or doesnt support adequately but i dont see the point of wasting my time.

Perhaps if i do though i should also log on to Windows + Linux + Mac forums and complain about features they are missing too (I use all three of theses)

Stop annoying everyone stating completely obvious things repeatedly.
BLAH BLAH no memory protection blah blah no this no that.

We know all that !

Quote:

Your statements are a waste of time. We all know the things Aros is lacking but the users such as myself know these temporary limitations and still continue to enjoy what it CURRENTLY provides.

Seeing it was already "temporary" 15 years ago, it's here to last forever.

Quote:

Stop annoying everyone stating completely obvious things repeatedly.

It's not obvious... Otherwise there would be work on that. And a new API ready for that... in 10 years, I guess it's more than enough. And people wouldn't jump at my throat each time I dare talking about it: "we don't need it!", "my os doesn't crash!", "go to windows !", "I want compatibility, I don't care"

Last edited by Leo on 28-Mar-2010 at 11:01 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 28-Mar-2010 at 10:55 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

Thankyou for taking the time to enlighten people with your insightful comments.
We really appreciate your opinions and thoughts.

Work will begin immedietly on the features that you desire.
We look forward to appeasing you.

If these features are not completed in your expected timeframe please let everbody know again.

Hopefully we can make you immensly happy and alleviete your frustrations.

Thank you for your contributions to Aros project

P.S Aros has Video