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      /  X1000 and OS 4.2
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wawa 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 19-Jul-2011 21:43:36
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

thats about driver level, like its done on aros where gallium is an option, they probably want to keep the backwards compatibility with radeon/w3d for the time being. i would do the same. but it doesnt mean that they will extend gallium/mesa capabilities beyond what they are. how would they be able to do that? their experience with programming such limited packages as w3d and minigl cant be compared with the abilities of dedicated and experienced team programming mesa now for years. dont dream.

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kas1e 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 19-Jul-2011 22:38:03
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3525
From: Russia

@AmigaBlitter

And its the same what i say, just with many words which make no big sense if say them short.

As i say, they will port Gallium + Mesa (what mean, that of course, they will do adaptation work, as do AROS coders). All the other stuff, its just words, which in short also mean "we will make more stuff on top of that, when we will done with initial port of gallium+mesa (as all that multi-threading and multiple-cpu support, etc)".

In other words, its not so important right now, what developers want to make on top of Gallium+Mesa when it will be done, important piece of info, that they works on porting of gallium+mesa combo, and not on something else (like you say that they not want to use mesa, but you are wrong, they will use mesa).

@wawa

Quote:

how would they be able to do that? their experience with programming such limited packages as w3d and minigl cant be compared with the abilities of dedicated and experienced team programming mesa now for years. dont dream.


Exactly. We can only hope that porting and adaptation work will be done good enough, that only one moment about what we can "dream" :)

Last edited by kas1e on 19-Jul-2011 at 10:42 PM.

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elwood 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 19-Jul-2011 23:09:21
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3427
From: Lyon, France

@thinkchip

Quote:
is there anything for sale now that is significantly faster than my micro

The Sam460 is already faster than the MicroA1 and more. Read here about the 1941 deluxe game made by HunoPPC.

The game will feature an SDL engine that does 55 fps on Sam440, 75 fps on a G4 Peg II and 85 fps on Sam460.

Now who still owns a MicroA1???

Last edited by elwood on 20-Jul-2011 at 11:25 AM.

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Hans 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 19-Jul-2011 23:10:13
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4930
From: New Zealand

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote:
@kas1e

From Hyperion blog:

"Provide a hardware-accelerated OpenGL for applications, games, and the operating system.
Provide a driver interface with maximum flexibility. We do not want to count exclusively on Gallium3D as a basis for drivers, although it will be a fundamental one.
Provide a low-level API that does not depend on high-level constructs like Windows or Screens. While it should be possible to render to these, it should not depend on any of them.
Be able to upgrade to the latest OpenGL version, depending on driver support.
Support multi-threading and multiple CPU's."

and again:

"The internal driver interface is designed to be usable with or without Gallium3D. Obviously, the focus of our work will be Gallium-based, but what if there is a graphics card that does not support the required level of shader support to be able to work with Gallium? For this purpose, opengl.library (the central hub of the OpenGL system on AmigaOS) is able to load and operate drivers that only provide a minimal set of internal functions plus the required entry points for OpenGL. That way, it is possible to use a Mesa based driver, or even a completely custom driver, for hardware that is not supported by Gallium3D."


The Gallium-3D API requires that graphics cards support shaders, and so R1xx and R2xx chipsets will never have Gallium-3D drivers.** Enabling the use of non-Gallium drivers opens the door to having drivers for older cards too.

Hans

** R1xx and R2xx actually do have shaders, but they are much too limited to be used with GLSL or any of the other shader languages.

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wawa 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 19-Jul-2011 23:18:46
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Hans

thanks for clarifying this. now all should be clear. its a good move imo, btw.

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Tuxedo 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 19-Jul-2011 23:33:09
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2326
From: Perugia, ITALY

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
AmigaONE-X1000 is mostly it’s an opportunity to go 64bit and add SMP support to AmigaOS4, It will be the fastest AmigaOS4 hardware around, and the only option if your prefer AmigaOS4.


Someone said that on ppc(due to its architecture) 64bit wasnt faster but slower than 32bit so we dont need really that...

We instead, imho, need smp and Gallium...other than a new wb etc etc, but thats another story...

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wawa 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 0:01:25
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Tuxedo

is there any significant difference in speed between 32 and 64 bit on any architecture? testing both versions of lightwave (rendering times) once i came to similar results. 64bit was even a tiny bit slower on the same machine afair.

Last edited by wawa on 20-Jul-2011 at 12:02 AM.

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tonyw 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 0:13:59
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3227
From: Sydney (of course)

@Tuxedo

A change to 64-bit will affect everything in the OS. All structures will become incompatible, every API will have to change, the OS will have to be re-written. In order to allow legacy code to run, a 32-bit wrapper will have to be written. The whole source code tree will probably have to be branched.

It's not a trivial matter and it won't happen in a few months. Just guessing, I would expect OS5 will be 64-bit and SMP. But that's only a guess on my part.

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Panthro 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 0:27:59
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-May-2006
Posts: 391
From: Unknown

that would be awesome!
I'd love to have 64bit smp in AmigaOS, true that it's huge job but it sure would be good.

I'd rather full 64bit with an emulator running all legacy 68k & 32bit stuff

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 1:23:32
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12145
From: Norway

@wawa

64 bit gives you a lot of address space, compared to 32bit, its huge advantage if you run a database, if you run virtual machines, Video editing, a normal 32bit cpu can only address 4Gbytes at the same time that’s not a lot today, when some applications use memory mapped files.

(for every bit the amount of addressable Virtual / Physical memory doubles)

I expect 32bit cpu's is going to be less common, simply because I don't think software industry is interested in support two different address register sizes, so even on mobile phones its going to be 64bit, the number of transistors you can put in CPU has increased every year.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 1:28:31
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12145
From: Norway

@tonyw

I think It can be solved by having High and low mem

Low mem = shard memory / kernel memory / Virtual memory / Private memory (For 32bit and 64bit)
High mem = Virtual memory / Private memory (For 64bit only)

New routines for allocation memory above 4gbytes is needed.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:34 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:30 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:30 AM.

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wawa 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 1:33:59
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

@wawa

64 bit gives you a lot of address space, compared to 32bit, its huge advantage if you run a database, if you run virtual machines, Video editing, a normal 32bit cpu can only address 4Gbytes at the same time that’s not a lot today, when some applications use memory mapped files.

(for every bit the amount of addressable Virtual / Physical memory doubles)

I expect 32bit cpu's is going to be less common, simply because I don't think software industry is interested in support two different address register sizes, so even on mobile phones its going to be 64bit, the number of transistors you can put in CPU has increased every year.

sure. i know that. but to my knowledge it doesnt give you any speed advantage by itself in comparison to 32bit.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 1:36:32
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12145
From: Norway

@wawa

That's true, it does not give you higher clock frequency or faster memory bus.

If you however you work whit lots of data, a 32bit system will need to use hard drive, a 64bit system does not need too.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:39 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:39 AM.

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wawa 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 1:40:33
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Panthro
Quote:

I'd rather full 64bit with an emulator running all legacy 68k & 32bit stuff

sounds a little like aros x64. if emulating anyway a faster cpu would outweight the endianness issues. would be a good point to move on when compatibility goes outta window one way or the other. but i dont really know if i would like it myself.

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wawa 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 1:42:35
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

look, i have nothing against 64bit. ;)

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 1:43:50
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12145
From: Norway

@wawa

Endianness issues has nothing to do whit 32bit or 64bit, endiannes references to how the CPU was designed to organize bits and bytes in memory.

Because the Intel/AMD organize things different from Power/ARM conversion is need in order to interpret the content correctly.

A good example Arabic vs Latin.

Left to right or right to left.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:50 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:49 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:48 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2011 at 01:47 AM.

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wawa 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 3:04:37
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

oh, my. imagine, know that too. all i said is, switching to 64bit would be a good point to switch to another architecture if considered. things would go broken only once..

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_ThEcRoW 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 3:08:33
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 832
From: Murcia (Spain)

@NutsAboutAmiga

What amiga application now needs more than 4gb of ram?. Also you named virtualization and databases, where are they in amiga?.

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broadblues 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 4:50:04
#39 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4429
From: Portsmouth England

@_ThEcRoW

Quote:

What amiga application now needs more than 4gb of ram?. Also you named virtualization and databases, where are they in amiga?.


Indeed anything that doesn't run on a 12 Mhz CPU in 256k of Ram isn't truly an amiga app, and it's unamiga like to dream of more.





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Panthro 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 20-Jul-2011 5:49:24
#40 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-May-2006
Posts: 391
From: Unknown

@broadblues

lol you beat me to that.

yeah aim for the future!

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