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      /  Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
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PosterThread
itix 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 20:02:06
#201 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3396
From: Freedom world

@pavlor

Quote:

Nonesense, Hyperion can simply run Petunia as 680x0 without FPU.

Integer unit is compatible with "normal" PowerPC, only FPU isnt.


Btw. sometimes PPC FPU is used for other tasks like memory copying and FPU could be used to emulate 68k instruction move16.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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duga 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 20:02:20
#202 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-May-2012
Posts: 165
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

Quote:
Even a linux PowerpcSPE developer was a surprised when I posted a picture of Tabor ruining the Ubuntu-Mate 16.04 .


Ruining or running?

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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 20:23:18
#203 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@duga

Corrected. Thanks.

Quote:

duga wrote:
@Spectre660

Quote:
Even a linux PowerpcSPE developer was a surprised when I posted a picture of Tabor ruining the Ubuntu-Mate 16.04 .


Ruining or running?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 20:25:48
#204 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

Quote:
Mplayer decoding under Morphos for some codecs is very good


Indeed! So are many other things!

Speaking of mplayer, maybe I recall incorrectly, but IIRC () there were a couple of applications you tried on Tabor/Linux that didn't work very well, mplayer being one of them? What were the others? And do they work now at this time?

And no, I'm of course not talking about the specially compiled PowerPCSPE versions...

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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:02:35
#205 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

The problem ones with FPU emulation .
Mplayer2 video and Mpv video. codecs crash .
Firefox/Icewesel . crash on startup . Other Browsers Qupzilla and Midori work .
Issues seen under Ubuntu 12.04, Ubuntu 16.04 , Debian 8 and Debian 9.
So still not working
Mplayer2 mp3 audio playback works but with pauses .
Mpv audio works well enough to playback
an mp3 even while browsing with Qupzilla and other programs running at the same time .


Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@Spectre660

Quote:
Mplayer decoding under Morphos for some codecs is very good


Indeed! So are many other things!

Speaking of mplayer, maybe I recall incorrectly, but IIRC () there were a couple of applications you tried on Tabor/Linux that didn't work very well, mplayer being one of them? What were the others? And do they work now at this time?

And no, I'm of course not talking about the specially compiled PowerPCSPE versions...

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tlosm 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:07:23
#206 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2539
From: Amiga land

@TRIPOS

from my personal experience on MacMini 1.5 ghz and on PowerBook G4 1.67 i cant watch good 720p video mkv with framedrops ond losing the video sincronization.
On OsX side on youtube 320p on powerbook with flashplayer only i was able to see good video but turning on at 720p was make machine become sloowwww...
For sure on 720p on G5 2.3 ghz with morphos you can see video good i dont know if mkv or mp4 . but be sure on only one core 1080 mkv with Ac3 you cant play good... 2 cores is the min you will need.

Last edited by tlosm on 28-Mar-2016 at 09:08 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 28-Mar-2016 at 09:08 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:12:57
#207 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
OlafS25 wrote:

"Despite what you might have read in this thread NO pricing for the tabor hardware was announced. The speculated numbers quoted are also vey high. "

it says no decision yet


Yes of course, no final release price as of yet. And it also says (if you read between the lines, which indeed isn't an exact science since it involves subjective interpretations) that pricing may have been, and probably still is, somewhat of a moving target/rolling stone (downhill, obviously)!

1. 700-1000 (A-Eon Linux team) -> 2. No, that's not it, that will be to high -> 3. the price point could be low enough to be selling at a loss

OlafS25 and iggy seems to think that pricing is merely about calculating your total costs, adding profit margin, and you have the consumer price. But this is only a part of it; price is also set by market mechanisms like supply and demand, which also includes competing offers (my view is that OS4 migrants has been driving MorphOS sales the last year or so, not new H/W support/multiple licenses) as well as substitutes (see below).

My point is that AeonKit could very well have expected a price of 700-1000 to be fair and reasonable at one, initial, point in time; it would be about one third of an X5000 and about the same range as a Sam460.

Then they ("recently") became aware that the CPU is kind of flawed and that few people would actually demand such H/W. Limited/low demand. The market has also kind of disappeared overall, due to the poor state of OS4 progress in general, and it will take a very long time for OS4 support to arrive. And now the main selling point for OS4 is for emulation (H/W substitute) in a pre-configured UAE package from Cloanto for a FRACTION of even the lowest imaginable price for Tabor, and key people is already at work in removing the Amiga/PowerUP limitations from UAE to make this a way forward for OS4!

By the time OS4 support for Tabor arrives (if it ever does), they might have to offload the boards for free to some African jungle-nation as part of some third world charity (read: recycling) programme.

That was my point: Tabor Price = Rolling Stone = Down Hill.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:24:36
#208 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@OlafS25

Quote:
What might be unknown is when it will be ready.


I bet it will be mid year... dont know what year.


Judging from previous experiences (the pattern has been the same for many OS4 H/W platforms) when seeing such very early things as a screen shot like the one Trevor recently posted in his blog, I'd say OS4 support is at least two years away. Under normal circumstances. And "normal" doesn't mean unique low-level OS competence disappearing over the years, H/W with special quirks and needs (like the Tabor CPU), and the previous porting project not even finished yet (X5000). I'd be very surprised if OS4 would be released for the Tabor before 2018. If ever.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:27:41
#209 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:

Quote:
Tabor I can wait for, especially with this "we will ram it right down their throats" attitude.


For me the opposite is true. I cant afford X5000 and Tabor may be last chance to buy A1 before OS4 faction is gone.


The last part of your post: Am I seeing some sense and realism pouring into you here? Some awakening?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:39:27
#210 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
Right now, I am worried that this device might actually hinder our small community.
Quote:

Tabor I can wait for, especially with this "we will ram it right down their throats" attitude.


This I totally agree to!

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:41:06
#211 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

eliyahu wrote:
@iggy

Quote:
Right now, I would be more worried about the glacial pace of Hyperion's software development than I would be about hardware developments.

If anyone is going to destroy the OS4 faction, it will likely be them.

that is becoming increasingly clear to many of us.

Quote:
Or has it escaped everyone's notice that most of the noteworthy software upgrades recently have come from outside Hyperion's core team?

no. no, it hasn't.

-- eliyahu


Wow! You are amazing!

You really take the prize, no competition!



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wawa 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:54:28
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6048
From: Unknown

Quote:
before OS4 faction is gone.


the problem is not what videos you can watch on some hardware or not, or if it is comparable with pc hardware from before ten or twenty years, but that in the context we are speaking about the hardware without particular software completely doenst make any sense. and the state of that essential software looks in every respect very uncertain.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 21:54:33
#213 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
@TRIPOS

The problem ones with FPU emulation .
Mplayer2 video and Mpv video. codecs crash .
Firefox/Icewesel . crash on startup . Other Browsers Qupzilla and Midori work .
Issues seen under Ubuntu 12.04, Ubuntu 16.04 , Debian 8 and Debian 9.
So still not working
Mplayer2 mp3 audio playback works but with pauses .
Mpv audio works well enough to playback
an mp3 even while browsing with Qupzilla and other programs running at the same time .


OK. In Linux.

I think this is a little interesting in context with post #175, post #178 in this thread, and indeed in this other thread post #35 and post #36.

Maybe it won't be "that easy" after all...?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 22:35:54
#214 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@tlosm

When watching downloaded video content it also comes down to the definition of "good 720p video" in combination with the noob-level of the encoder (as in the enthusiastic human behind the settings, not the program doing the work).

But there is no way around the need for processing power, even for "basic" things as watching modern movies (and browsing heavy sites, and..., and...)

This is another reason to why arguments like "but it's enough for me, the Amiga is efficient even on low power H/W, not everyone needs x86 performance" fly with me.

Not to mention "but the FPU will be emulated in S/W". And "it will probably work, it doesn't really work that well on Linux right now, but surely OS4 has the resources and competence Linux lacks to make this happen".

Especially not in combination with "It will only cost 700." Or for that matter "350." Or "200."

If it can't cope with basic everyday 2016 media usage, I don't want it. I have no use for a downgrade. A G4 mac (laptop, desktop, mini) cost virtually nothing. And there is G5's.

Anything less than G4/G5, is a downgrade.

IMHO, we need SIGNIFICANT upgrades!

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kamelit0 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 23:02:40
#215 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2011
Posts: 670
From: Unknown

I'd like to know what's the difference between the two regarding electricity bill. Overtime which one will cost less...

Kamelito

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cryingamiga 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 29-Mar-2016 7:53:22
#216 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2015
Posts: 12
From: Unknown

The response to Tabor has been far more negative than positive. What I do not understand is how Aeon can make a product like this without, at least what I consider, proper market research. We are a small community and I do not understand why we are not 'consulted' as to what we desire. I have no problem giving Aeon profit provided they make a product I want.

How about trying this:

1) Propose an idea, specs, price, and time frame, to the community
2) Get feedback
3) Go forward or cancel based on feedback

This Tabor project unfortunately seems like a miss. I do not see myself buying one unless the price is less than $200. Even at that price it would not be an instant buy because the value may not be there. I would love to buy a decent NG Amiga.

Please help Aeon. See what the community wants for a given price point. Then deliver it!

Am I being too simplistic in my thought process?


Last edited by cryingamiga on 29-Mar-2016 at 07:55 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 29-Mar-2016 8:14:57
#217 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5095
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@cryingamiga

" We are a small community and I do not understand why we are not 'consulted' as to what we desire"

Also I would like to see more openness in R&D phase.

" I would love to buy a decent NG Amiga."

I have SAM440ep-mini. I consider getting Tabor, after it has proven to give no extra head ache vs vanilla SAM usage. SW must work out of the box, performance must be a lot higher than with PPC440/666Mhz. So far X5000 looks a lot more like a safe upgrade, just little expensive.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 29-Mar-2016 15:18:41
#218 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8762
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
The last part of your post: Am I seeing some sense and realism pouring into you here? Some awakening?


When someone of your degree of realism calls me sane, I must really start question my own sanity.


Quote:
I'd be very surprised if OS4 would be released for the Tabor before 2018. If ever.


This could be nice bet...

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 29-Mar-2016 15:20:57
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8762
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
but that in the context we are speaking about the hardware without particular software completely doenst make any sense. and the state of that essential software looks in every respect very uncertain.


As Im content OS4 user even with limited WinUAE experience, I dont think Tabor could disappoint me.

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OlafS25 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 29-Mar-2016 15:27:20
#220 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5288
From: Unknown

@pavlor

bet?

I guess you think Tabor will be ready before 2018... this year or next year

if you loose you will eat your hat?

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