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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 12:47:01
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Leo

Some of the 68k applications are still best of their kind available for AmigaOS (TvPaint, PPaint, MysticView etc.), some of the PowerPC applications are no longer developed (developers left the platform). With radical platform change you may get powerful modern OS with working webbrowser and few utils, but not much more.

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Leo 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 15:18:51
#82 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Sure, but if the developers are gone, they don't write apps for 68k either anymore.

UAE can run pretty much any 68k app, so all you would need is an UAE port to run your apps.

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Daedalus 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 15:28:39
#83 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Leo

Having to run an emulator to run one application is a pain in the proverbials. Interfaces are different, filesystems are different, OS behaviour is different, there's no IPC... It's essentially an awkward mess that's tolerable for the occasional use, but seamless integration à la OS4 / MOS is really what's needed if you regularly do anything other than playing games on your system.

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Leo 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 15:44:53
#84 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

@Daedalus

Well, really old 68k apps also have different interfaces too, some cannot take advantage of new features, like hi color screens, etc.. come with built-in graphics/buttons that won't fit with OS4/MOS either. That's a problem you already had whith OS4/MOS anyway. For example lots of people like to use DOpus 4: it will run, but don't tell me its interface is well integrated with OS4/MOS...

You cannot expect to run transparently every single 68k app on the new OS.

This was true with OS3.1 when it was released, this was true with OS4, and this will be true with in the future. There is no difference here.

You also seem to be missing what you couldn't do with OS3.x, with OS4, that you will be able to do with the new OS.

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wawa 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 16:39:38
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
I really do not see what's changing in that regard.


so you realize that you will see no development for your new desired platform?
a system with zero software, just for the sake of it, what sense would that make even if amiga was just about the system, which it isnt?

just note that currently still most development goes into the genuine amiga platform, consult aminet for results. in comparison aros gets least coverage with just few ports now and then, certainly beacuse of lack of backwards compatibility, thats no secret. in the same time morphos and os4 sit in between, some backwards compatibility let them maintain the interest of the public, even while the developmens as almost as restricted as on aros.

so, untill someone starts actually developing some new system, instead cheap talk and demands, i dont even like to comment on that.

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Leo 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 16:47:41
#86 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

so you realize that you will see no development for your new desired platform?
a system with zero software, just for the sake of it, what sense would that make even if amiga was just about the system, which it isnt?

What I realize is that there won't be magically more development that there is now on current plateforms. Sure.

It doesn't mean there will be zero software.

But there's potential you don't have with current OS.

It's like saying "no, there are no apps needing 1Mb memory now, so why increasing memory to 1Mb? 512Kb ought to be enough for everyone".

But then people started taking advantage of 1Mb, and then it was the norm. The same goes for RTG, 3D, RTA, etc... And everything that could bring the new OS.

As for the initial software, of course it will be limited. But I am personally fine with a modern browser, a picture viewer, text editor + dev tools, a video player and a terminal.

Webkit is already portable, open source, mainainted, and already has a MorphOS/OS4 port.
MPlayer is already portable, open source, maintained, and already has a MorphOS/OS4 port.
etc...

It's not like you need a thousand software to launch a new OS for users as dedicated as Amiga users...

Last edited by Leo on 01-Dec-2017 at 04:50 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 01-Dec-2017 at 04:50 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 16:48:50
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@wawa

Exactly. Although numbers of Aminet downloads aren´t infallible measure of 3rd party support (eg. 68k applications are mostly minor), it would be fooly to expect MorphOS numbers will rise after radical architecture change.

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wawa 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 17:19:40
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
68k applications are mostly minor


same as os4 content. updates to older ports, simple c commands, link libs.

uniquely 68k stil receives even some dedicated software, instead of ports, not even counting in the demo scene.

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 18:10:45
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@wawa

Well, QT, AmiCygnix, CodeBench, Sketchblock, Blender, Emotion, NetSurf, or Odyssey were quite big projects - to name few I have on my HDD...

Speaking about dedicated software, something like Emotion for 68k (splendid video player with GUI) would be really useful.

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tlosm 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 18:53:22
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2702
From: Amiga land

@pavlor

Quote:
No, question is whether Quake is playable at all...


on radeon hd with debian ppc spe with spe builded darkplace you will not have more than 70 fps

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 8:35:53
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@tlosm

First, 70 FPS is more than enough. Second, I asked about FPU emulation, not native build.

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HyperionHolding 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 0:07:46
#92 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Jun-2017
Posts: 39
From: Unknown

@Hans

I agree fully with Hans here, Thomas Frieden put a very powerful emulation framework in place which will also serve us in the future. The fact of the matter is that that the Power/PowerPC ISA's (and FPU's) are not always entirely compatible accross the board.

Initial results are very encouraging.

On top of that, native compilation is also an option which has been put into effect but that will be marginal due to additional support and will obviously not work for applications which are no longer under development..

Ben Hermans

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HyperionHolding 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 0:29:00
#93 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Jun-2017
Posts: 39
From: Unknown

@bison

This is actually an incorrect assumption as early on a HAL (hardware abstraction layer) was implemented. The reasons for that are clear.

There is a HAL in AmigaOS 4 simply because of the significant differences between the different Power/PowerPC hardware and even the scheduler is now re-implemented in C.

Just as an aside: the Sam and SAM 460 support was very tricky because the CPU's used from AMCC did not implement all instructions, did not have the same MMU set-up as the Freescale 744X CPU's as used in the original AmigaOne etc.

The PA6T used in the AmigaOne X1000 was an entirely different ball-game again with basic functionality such as interrupts, MMU handling, ISA etc. substantially different from previous architectures.

As was the case for Cyrus and the Tabor (A1222).

Without a HAL, this would have been even more of a nightmare.

All of this platform specific stuff is to the best of my knowledge isolated from the actual operating system.

I am not saying that an ARM port would be a small feat but it is certainly well within the realm of possibility provided we grow a sufficiently large userbase first AND there is an overriding reason to do it.

The main issue would actually be on the application side: running AmigaOS 4.x native programs on ARM would incur a subtantial performance penalty so a recompile would be in order.

Moreover, there is wide range of ARM based CPU's, with only the top of the line actually suitable for desktop performance range as you are now used with current Power/PowerPC offering (including backwards compatible 68K based software running at a very decent speed).

In closing, whilst ARM is in theory bi-endian, in practise, many vendors chose one of the two and in many cases little endian.

My take on this is that ARM would initially only be useful for mobile devices and there would be a compelling reason to support a specific ARM based device.

With Apple gearing up to move away from Intel and x86, it would idiotic to embark on a x86 port now.

Ben Hermans

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HyperionHolding 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 0:33:46
#94 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Jun-2017
Posts: 39
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Did you know that Commodore actually turned down a license agreement to port AmigaOS to Alpha Dec?

Alpha was very hot in the day, it was THE powerhouse of CPU's in its day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_Alpha

If they would have done that, not only might they still be around (doubtful but the odds would have improved), the OS would have been in a much better state once migration to PPC began.

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bison 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 5:33:54
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1667
From: N-Space

@HyperionHolding

Quote:
I am not saying that an ARM port would be a small feat but it is certainly well within the realm of possibility provided we grow a sufficiently large userbase first AND there is an overriding reason to do it.

Well, "within the realm of possibility" is certainly good news!

I think the vanishing PowerPC desktop market is in itself a pretty good reason for doing an ARM port.

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tlosm 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 10:29:24
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2702
From: Amiga land

@HyperionHolding

Hi ben,
Im sure Thomas is making a great job for the standard to spe fpu instructions
but this toy cpu can't made miracles it is too much small for nowadays use.
For sure it will be ok for run small games like doom or quake3 but we are in 2018 people are running virtual reality, RA and mixed reality, 4K 3D videos and so and so... How will be browsing with it on internet... It will ok browse on new htm5 websites full of graphic scripts and movies ? I'm pretty sure not.

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I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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cha05e90 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 11:17:56
#97 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1273
From: Germany

@bison

Quote:
vanishing PowerPC desktop market

...and replacing it with another more or less Desktop-unusable ISA is a good idea? I can't see any sense in this. At least we have system with P.A. Semi or Motorola/Freescale desktop CPUs.
I have seen those "ARM-Devices" that pretended to be a desktop system, mostly Linux or RiscOS. I was not impressed. If you really want to have a poor AmigaOS 4.x experience just use UAE - that is even cheaper than ARM, 'cos you already own one (a x64/86 PC, I assume).

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Zylesea 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 13:13:19
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2176
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@Leo

Quote:
I really do not see what's changing in that regard.


so you realize that you will see no development for your new desired platform?
a system with zero software, just for the sake of it, what sense would that make even if amiga was just about the system, which it isnt?

just note that currently still most development goes into the genuine amiga platform, consult aminet for results. in comparison aros gets least coverage with just few ports now and then, certainly beacuse of lack of backwards compatibility, thats no secret. in the same time morphos and os4 sit in between, some backwards compatibility let them maintain the interest of the public, even while the developmens as almost as restricted as on aros.

so, untill someone starts actually developing some new system, instead cheap talk and demands, i dont even like to comment on that.


But it's not the masses of software that is cruicial for using the system, but the quality. And look, on AROS you have the most advanced version of Odyssey. Hence, AROS will do the demanding current stuff way better than a 68k system. And with uae rather well integrated into AROS you can _also_ use all the 68k stuff.
Hence for AROS software is not only AROS soft, but also the 68k stuff. Which is more than 68k alone.
For OS4 and MorphOS it's similar, albeit with a few different details.

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Zylesea 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 13:34:34
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2176
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
it would be fooly to expect MorphOS numbers will rise after radical architecture change.


I hink noone expects MorphOS to gain high user numbers with an ISA switch, But w/o it is dead on the long run anyway (just like OS4). The cpu power of ppc is just not enough to provide a future. Plus, the Apple kit is aging and stuff like Tabor (expensive toy with incompatible fpu, less performance than a Raspberry pi), or an X5000 (überexpensive "pocket calculator") is no option when you can get off the shelf powerful x64 laptops or desktops for pocket money.
Plus, we have a few things in the OS that need to be fixed: 32 bit adressing and no SMP to name the most important two. Changing these things in a proper way will lead to a compability break anyway - old stuff must get handled by some closed environement anyway. Why not just using UAE for this and do the new suff on cheap, available and - most important - real powerful hardware. t least i am not satisfied 100% with my 1.67 G4 - it's too weak. And a G5 or X5000 is not a real change in that regard, I want far more, sya at least 10 times the power - ad that is not going to happen w/o SMP and x64. But with the latter it's a easy thing, a very easy thing.

And I think it is also a way to let OS4 and MorphOS get a more individual profile: OS4 staying more conservative with ppc and MorpOS departing to something new. I mean isn't it better to follow two different approaches in total. If we're lucky at least one approach gets some success.

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 13:58:16
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

If anyone want to use Amiga-like OS on "x86", there is AROS for that purpose... and free of charge. What more can offer MorphOS x64? Nice skin/theme?

Open source MorphOS, merge with AROS and create ultimate free Amiga-like OS. That would make sense.

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