@OlafS25

Well that depends on what you are trying to accomplish I suppose. If you are trying to compete with mainstream PCs then you are absolutely correct, this is not going to happen. But I do believe that IF the Tabor comes to fruition the user base will grow considerably and with that MAYBE we will see more attention from developers. Amiga will always be niche and will never again compete with the big boys, but maybe with a larger userbase and then more devs interested we might see some life in the old Girl yet.

And yes I have seen the whole sorted mess that was the last 30 years, so I understand your reluctance, but I think Tabor COULD be a major step in the right direction.

@outlawal2

Tabor is Raspberry Class hardware but much more expensive

Additionally SPE support right now is removed from new versions of GCC so situation is not becoming better

Considerably is relative of course, I think not enough to attract new developers but we will see next year (perhaps)

@DFergFLA

I am beginning to think that the browser problem is an Amiga tradition. For years, since the 68K days, it has had the browser problem. Apple being on PPC and Safari using open source components was good for us. But it wasn't to last. And now the problem exacerbates as browsers specificially target CPUs with little endian architecture. They don't write truely portable software anymore.

Five to ten years ago browsing was still possible. And the speed was good enough. Though videos were out of reach. Now, browsing is totally broken, because the internet changes too quickly enough. What was fast on my X1000 is too slow now. And forget videos even if thay can play inside the browser now. Too late to be useful.

Even without browsing software like Odyssey is too unstable. It's clear it isn't designed for a system like OS4. On average one time out of five when I load it up it just freezes instantly trying to open a window. Whole system takedown. Shocking. On my A1/XE it would crash but not totally kill the system. This could be due in part to the X1000 kernel, which in my experience is the most unstable OS4 kernel there is. And since it depends on USB input devices that run the driver as a soiftware task, I can't soft reboot anymore. Two minutes of my life wasted with every crash.

But compiling ported software is still the worse. OS4 still lacks dependencies. You still can't download a source and configure it on OS4. Most Linux stuff needs Linux to work in. Bit silly that you need a PC to compile OS4 software that can't compile on OS4 itself. If OS4 software can't compile on OS4 itself I wonder if there is any point? Pretty soon OS4 will be dumped as it becomes a stmbling block.

I think instead of fancy things like Xena or FPGA, AmigaOne machines would be better off with some "normal" CPU­, like an ARM core on board. This could run Linux simultaneously. With a web browser loadable and using an onboard conduit with driver use OS4 RTG as an X Server. Then a "normal" browser could run and run at full speed. Better than we have now.

@Hypex

Sadly the configures scripts where written on Linux, and depends on lots of lots of Linux stuff, can't expect everything to be compiled for AmigaOS.

I'm having problems with GREP command now, it tells me that any directory I try to recursively grep is not directory. I'm not sure if the was always so bad or if grep as replaced by updater tool..

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@Hypex

Quote:

On my A1/XE it would crash but not totally kill the system. This could be due in part to the X1000 kernel, which in my experience is the most unstable OS4 kernel there is.

Way are you using the X1000 kernel on on AmigaONE XE? Its designed for PA. Semi PA6T not a G4, PowerPC CPU's are designed for different ISA's

I don't think it’s the kennel that is unstable. I think something might not be 100% right with intuition or the new AmigaShell as doing lots of debugging, I'm dumping lots of text in Shell window, while doing that moving the Shell window can freeze my system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition#Software

Anyway bad thread handling is recurring problem I see with programs, ported to AmigaOS or written for AmigaOS, I think it's to be blamed for lots memory corruption.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 03:30 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 03:12 PM.

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@OlafS25

So how did they manage to hit a price point of $35 with the PI when the Tabor is around $500? (I am not disputing your statement, just wondering how and why the huge disparity in cost?)

Is it simply because the codebase requires the PPC processor so everything related is more expensive? I know that the Amiga old timers (Like me) really want to keep the PPC architecture as that was the real difference with Amigas and Amiga OS. I don't like the idea of porting to x86 but if the cost is 20 times or more to keep pushinhg PPC it may be inevitable...

@outlawal2

No simply because RPi is produced and sold in millions so every unit is only covering a small part of the development costs whereas Tabor is produced in small batches so a couple of hundred sold units have to cover it. Theoretically you could do the same with a PPC based board if you would find a market for it.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2018 at 03:13 PM.

@DFergFLA

I understand you, i sold my X5000 because browsing on this machine is bullshit

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@Trixie

I couldn't agree more. If somebody is not having their needs met, then saying the nebulous "it's fun" mantra isn't very helpful. The sales pitch "remember when computing was fun?" is the same. If anything it'll only make people more frustrated when the "fun having" doesn't come.

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@BSzili

That depends, if some like Amos they might have some fun with that (when Kittens is done), but fun depends on what people like to do. some people even enjoy reading books .

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 04:21 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 03:52 PM.

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@DFergFLA

No one sane would buy 2000 USD computer without capable enough web browser. Period. Who said Amiga users are sane...

Don´t blame Hyperion, there are things beyond their power (death of PowerPC on desktop to name the most obvious).

Myself, I´m still waiting for Tabor. However, my computing needs are rather limited and I see new OS4 machine as a replacement for WinUAE (so complement to my laptop).

@tommysammy

...and browsing on a Vampire now is better, somehow?

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

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@Hypex

Quote:

by Hypex on 13-Dec-2018 14:41:22 I am beginning to think that the browser problem is an Amiga tradition.

Some call it "tradition", I would call it "folkore" in Amiga Land...

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@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: Even without browsing software like Odyssey is too unstable. It's clear it isn't designed for a system like OS4. On average one time out of five when I load it up it just freezes instantly trying to open a window.

Well, MorphOS isn't that different to OS4 (I would say it's a system like OS4), and Odyssey is stable there. It has never ever crashed on start within the ten years I've been using it (daily). And rarely in normal use either.

I would guess it's some component in OS4 which causes it to crash, not the program itself. Maybe OS4 version of MUI? Unless there has gone something wrong in the porting...

Last edited by jPV on 13-Dec-2018 at 05:23 PM.

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@jPV

Startup crashes? I wonder if there was issue with fonts, where you need to rebuild some font cache or something like that.

I have not experienced that in years.

The video playback make it usable, quieting it can result in threads (child processes) not being stopped when they should.

I think this are two most common problems, it works for simple browsing, trying to avoid Facebook, and pages like that and I'm fine for the most part.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 05:51 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 05:50 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 05:46 PM.

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@DFergFLA

20 years ago we had to make a choice which computer to buy.

Nowadays, prices came down, a used Windows computer or laptop, tablet or Mac is the machine for daily business and browsing. Then your Amiga is just for everything else.

My advise buy something available now like a Vampire, Amiga 1200, used AmigaNG, MorphOS Powerbook or whatever. lots of choices….

@OlafS25

Quote:

No simply because RPi is produced and sold in millions so every unit is only covering a small part of the development costs whereas Tabor is produced in small batches so a couple of hundred sold units have to cover it.

The trouble with your argument is that it requires economic literacy. Too many people who frequent computer forums think that if someone else would only do a little bit of work for which they themselves pay maybe $10 (or, preferably, nothing) then unicorns would fly. I mean, really, how hard can it be? Take a horse, glue a rhinoceros horn to its head, stick a rocket engine up its hiney, and you're there, right? With so little work, how much can it cost?!?

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@simplex

Well for the record I do have a bit more on the ball than that and I do understand about volume purchasing and such, I was simply asking if there was something that I was missing regarding the PI vs Tabor.. I understand there is a TON of work that goes into these things.. I never said it should be Unicorns and Glitter but the difference in cost is STAGGERING and I wonder why such a disparity..

The problem is the chicken / egg syndrome. Tabor costs too much because not enough people will buy it... And more people lose interest because it is too much to buy.

I just wonder how Raspberry PI were able to provide their unit to the world at that low price when they started with ZERO market at all? Obviously, once they were up and running and the product was pretty good, then the $35 made it an absolute steal.. But they still had to offer it at that low price before they had the orders to justify that price..

??

@outlawal2

Cost aside, you cannot compare the Tabor and RPi as being the same thing. Try to put some real computational duties on the RPi and it will run into trouble. The HD is a micro SD which is slow. You can put an external drive, but it will be USB. If you load it down (multiple cores), it will soon overheat and throttle down performance. I have to take the lid off the box which seems to help, and it has heat sinks on. Then if you start to really do things, perhaps a web browser you may soon run out of memory, as it "only" has 1GB.

Compare this with the Tabor, which according to specs has SATA, which should be much faster and up to 8GB of memory. You are more likely going to put it in a box with some kind of active cooling, so it will be a more proper computer.

Not that the RPi is bad, it is a useful little thing, but it is likely to be a more constrained device than the Tabor. The software side may be a different story, but that is perhaps more of a matter of personal taste.

@hth313

Interesting rebuttal, but I wasn't the one that said the RPI should be compared to the Tabor but I agree with everything you said.. (Please reread the thread and you will see that OLAF made the statement that the Tabor was RPI hardware for a much higher price...)

Now OLAFS turn..

Last edited by outlawal2 on 13-Dec-2018 at 11:21 PM.