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      /  Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 13-Jul-2019 18:02:27
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@number6

sorry, but as expected, this story has so many layers, you arent even scratching the surface i fear. the comments of olaf are so very true and honest and spoken from lifes experience and though they are probably entirely irrelevant to the core of the problem. a gordian knot you guys are enjoying discussing here. and this joy is the uppermost layer of the problem.

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broadblues 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 14-Jul-2019 9:49:45
#62 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4398
From: Portsmouth England

@ne_one

Quote:

@spud101

Evidently no one actually does.


(my emphasis).

Correct, but not quite in the way you mean I think. Many people do. AmigaOS which ever version has not been a monolithic things for many years, if it ever was even under commodore.

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ne_one 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 14-Jul-2019 16:00:58
#63 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 874
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:
Many people do


And that of course is both the main issue and ultimately, the most inconsequential.

The brand has value.

But a protracted, expensive battle over ownership of a ratchety old OS does not.

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asymetrix 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 14-Jul-2019 21:23:38
#64 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 840
From: United Kingdom

@thread

Hyperion promised multicore - but could not deliver.

AmigaOS needs to be re-engineered from the ground up.

The core need to be written in a portable format.
Give it a few asm commands and it creates the bootstrap to new architecture.

Multicore, multiuser needs to be in the core.

A systems analysis needs be done on all structures to redo slow functions and old algorithms replaced.

Security needs to be added properly api and data memory encryption.

All data access to structures should be forbidden and only access given with requests.

One could experiment with a thin Linux layer

Break compatibility emulation would come.

Data Oriented programming
Highly modular.

Apple is moving to custom arm processor for laptops & desktops.

we need an arm version of AmigaOS 3 and 4.

maybe an arm laptop - open source hardware :
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/KITS/TERES-A64-WHITE/open-source-hardware



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BigD 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 14-Jul-2019 22:20:16
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5029
From: UK

@asymetrix

Quote:
Apple is moving to custom arm processor for laptops & desktops.


Good for them as it will enable even thinner models with slower / cooler processors with less features and horsepower than Intel variants but bringing more vertical integration and hence larger profit margins!

At this point other than macOS itself 'Bootcamp' is Apple's last killer App following the death of iDVD and near destruction of iMovie and Final Cut Pro IMHO. But it's soon to be thrown out with the bath water just like all the 32 bit apps and useful PowerPC apps before that!

Saying all of that AmigaOS on the Raspberry Pi would be very welcome.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 14-Jul-2019 22:54:49
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@asymetrix, BigD

you guys heard about aros, right? lol.

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Argo 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 6:15:34
#67 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 303
From: St. Lawrence Co., NY, USA

@wawa

Was just going to mention that people could try out the experimental 64bit SMP nightly

http://aros.sourceforge.net/nightly1.php

Oh, and a Pi version is in the works
https://www.patreon.com/michal_schulz/posts

Last edited by Argo on 15-Jul-2019 at 06:17 AM.

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spud101 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 6:29:11
#68 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Aug-2016
Posts: 51
From: Unknown

@asymetrix

Quote:
Hyperion promised multicore - but could not deliver. AmigaOS needs to be re-engineered from the ground up. The core need to be written in a portable format. Give it a few asm commands and it creates the bootstrap to new architecture. Multicore, multiuser needs to be in the core. A systems analysis needs be done on all structures to redo slow functions and old algorithms replaced. Security needs to be added properly api and data memory encryption. All data access to structures should be forbidden and only access given with requests. One could experiment with a thin Linux layer Break compatibility emulation would come. Data Oriented programming Highly modular.


This sums it up doesn't it.

The paradox we're in. If we want to overhaul AmigaOS into a contemporary OS, it will simply become something totally else than what we have now, debatable whether this is still worth calling AmigaOS and additionally what will it bring to the table next to the modern OSs we already have?

So to me, it will remain a nostalgia driven hobby platform...

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broadblues 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 8:35:13
#69 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4398
From: Portsmouth England

@BigD

Quote:

Apple's last killer App


Logic.

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OlafS25 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 11:23:55
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5609
From: Unknown

@spud101

sure you could modernize AmigaOS but only if you drop 68k and accept it is no longer compatible. Existing software would need to be rewritten. That is the main problem... who will rewrite software and partly sources no longer exists. At the end such a new OS would be a "proof of concept". You could use a linux kernal as base and perhaps run linux software but then why use such a new OS at all.

So yes... it is a hobby platform

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BigD 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 11:34:51
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5029
From: UK

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@BigD

Quote:

Apple's last killer App


Logic.


Yeah, ok.... hence the new Apple adverts with famous musicians usings Macs. I get it but they are going the way of the Atari ST if they don't get other creative back on side

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 13:27:49
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1319
From: Trondheim, Norway

@spud101

Quote:

The paradox we're in. If we want to overhaul AmigaOS into a contemporary OS, it will simply become something totally else than what we have now,


If you consider that "most users" are sheep that have no clue about "this thing called Shell-Seg" and all the stuff that is "under the hood" of AmigaOS (can you tell from where I am paraphrasing?) - what does it matter if it is "something totally else"? Clearly, the vast majority of the users do simply not care.

Remember the days of TAO etc? Everyone (the "most users") was super excited then, even though that was clearly something totally else. It really all boils down to what it is the company is doing, that at any time is holding the "Amiga trophy" - if Hyperion tomorrow announced that they have found an immense investor for Amiga OS5, and that they have an agreement with the Matt Dillon, to provide the DragonFlyBSD kernel and userland for Amiga OS5 - the "most users" would be up in arms and super supportive.

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 13:35:05
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1319
From: Trondheim, Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:

if you drop 68k and accept it is no longer compatible. Existing software would need to be rewritten. That is the main problem... who will rewrite software and partly sources no longer exists.


That is clealy not a problem, since all we ever hear "most users" ask for, are...

* modern web browser (which also require modern networking stack, modern security measures etc)
* word processor that can handle MSOffice document formats.

I cannot think of any OS4 specific software for which a move to a more modern OS would not be possible or not be beneficial. The best way to get rid of the problem with legacy software, is to provide new software that renders the legacy software redundant, and best way to provide new software is to have a platform that attracts developers.

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bison 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 14:19:56
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1457
From: N-Space

@kolla

Quote:
The best way to get rid of the problem with legacy software, is to provide new software that renders the legacy software redundant, and best way to provide new software is to have a platform that attracts developers.

Yeah. !00%.

The best way to attract developers is to have APIs that are clean, well designed (i.e., not full of a bunch of legacy cruft) and flexible (the programmer shouldn't be straight-jacketed into OOP or any type of framework) with good, complete documentation. There shouldn't be any books titled "Undocumented Hypothetical OS". And there shouldn't be any Stack Overflow posts explaining how to do something in 17 steps that should be straightforward and simple. An intermediate-level programmer should be able to get up to speed on this hypothetical new system without living for years in the Microsoft/Apple/Linux House of Pain. This would attract developers, which in turn would attract users.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 16:17:18
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@bison

you guys are talking about everything but amiga. go grab your linux copy. or friendos or beos or haiku or whatever and stop complaining that no ne wants to code another redundant os.

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bennymee 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 16:46:27
#76 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 553
From: Netherlands

@wawa

Your are right, there is a still a lot of potential, let's focus what is here. We can borrow the best things from other Os'es but should not loose the Amiga identity.

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Nonefornow 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 17:42:36
#77 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 138
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@bison

Quote:
The best way to attract developers is


To support them, support their efforts, and their products.

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BigD 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 18:10:11
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5029
From: UK

@Nonefornow

Quote:
To support them, support their efforts, and their products.


And how exactly do we support Thomas R and the OS3.1.4 developers without the money being syphoned off to be wasted in the law courts?

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 18:51:54
#79 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1319
From: Trondheim, Norway

@BigD

How do one support developers who themselves describe the OS and its code base (in lengthy, detailed essays that goes _way_ over the heads of "most users") as horrible, messy, outdated... could someone please get them out of this misery! :)

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bison 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment - Reorg/Restructure
Posted on 15-Jul-2019 21:01:17
#80 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1457
From: N-Space

@wawa

Quote:
stop complaining that no ne wants to code another redundant os.


I think you're the one who's doing the complaining! There's opportunity here, if you can see it.

Last edited by bison on 15-Jul-2019 at 09:08 PM.

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