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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga Development
      /  Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
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PosterThread
nikosidis 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 27-Nov-2019 14:14:03
#101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 952
From: Norway, Oslo

@terminills

Ice hat :P Red hat :P

If should be as compatible as winuae. As we all know Amiga came in many versions. Many times you need to tweak the emulation. Lets see.

Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 02:22 PM.

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Srtest 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 27-Nov-2019 14:23:24
#102 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 242
From: Israel, Haderah

A question:

Can you theoretically use something like Reshade or anything to do with injecting shaders, it order of accomplishing some sort of Amiga AGA in 3D? Something along the lines of what happened on Linux where 2D has turned (for better and worse) into a layer of 3D? Can "hitting the metal" Vulkan-style or maybe with OpenGL be used to emulate Amiga gfx in shaders? Because there are already shaders that try to do something like that. Maybe just like how madVR has managed to gfx-render its way past the best home cinema hardware available, so could a combination of shaders masqueraded as Amiga scanlined gfx mode or something. I know UAE on Windows can use shaders. I'm talking using shaders on the quality control level like you can do when outputting video like with madVR or various MPV techniques (artificial HDR which some are claiming is as good as the real thing).

Last edited by Srtest on 27-Nov-2019 at 07:28 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 27-Nov-2019 at 02:27 PM.

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bison 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 27-Nov-2019 15:36:00
#103 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1532
From: N-Space

@KimmoK

Continuing on from here

Quote:
The board should be (needs to be) a long-term-supported industry board or a custom made "Amigan" board with long-available components.

I've long thought this is what AROS should have: an LTS reference board.

I have an ASUS LTS board in my current system. These are not gaming boards, since they target business users, but they work well enough, and the boards remain in production several years.

I haven't given up on POWER either. It's a really long shot, but a POWER SoC with a GPU would be a great development for Amiga.

Last edited by bison on 27-Nov-2019 at 03:41 PM.
Last edited by bison on 27-Nov-2019 at 03:40 PM.
Last edited by bison on 27-Nov-2019 at 03:39 PM.

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smith 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 27-Nov-2019 17:48:23
#104 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Feb-2019
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

I would really like us to have one modern hardware platform and one modern operating system and I believe that it is possible. For now, however, we do not have that but it does not mean that we cannot do anything without looking at those who decide the fate of the Amiga systems.
I think what we should focus on is a new software which can be used now and in the future.
We need a coherent development environment that will allow the creation of programs for all AmigaOS-like platforms simultaneously by ensuring compatibility at the source level. It should also provide modern mechanisms that will increase the efficiency of those programmers who are still in the community and at the same time encourage people from outside.
This is the goal of my project. Please consider supporting it.

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 28-Nov-2019 10:10:46
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5188
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@bison

"I haven't given up on POWER either. It's a really long shot, but a POWER SoC with a GPU would be a great development for Amiga."

Now it is possible to build also "our own" PowerPC chip. For example implementing it first in FPGA an later getting it as a real chip. Vampire guys could do it pretty easily, but getting it to a stable and usable silicon takes a lot of money (that we do not have). On a FPGA it's performance most likely is too low for any modern use.

More realistic possibility is that some bigger company finds some market for Power+GPU -combination and make it available to others as well.

There are options and possibilities (like those A64 LTS boards) for distant future Amigas.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 28-Nov-2019 10:25:45
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5188
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@smith

"I would really like us to have one modern hardware platform and one modern operating system and I believe that it is possible."

Same here.
(I just do not dream about being competitive vs mainstream & mainstream use-cases)

"I think what we should focus on is a new software which can be used now and in the future."

Yep.
There is a lot of fun Amiga stuff available to compute on as hobby.

"We need a coherent development environment that will allow the creation of programs for all AmigaOS-like platforms simultaneously by ensuring compatibility at the source level."

That's my "dream" also.

"This is the goal of my project. Please consider supporting it."

Interesting.
Will need to try it at some point.


Amigan developers have "invented" stuff like Amiga E and Hollywood and now also there you have a new language?

I hope I manage to get on developing something on and for Amiga and I will see through some options. I've been planning to try hollywood, AREXX, Python for high level programming and Amiga E for low level stuff.

Some (like me) do not have good view where to start. "Once upon a time " I installed AOS4 SDK and did "hello world", but it would be nice to see some tutorials & examples to "fast forward" from there.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 28-Nov-2019 11:06:13
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5188
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Srtest

"some sort of Amiga AGA in 3D?"

I've "grown to understand" that Amiga custom chips were so tightly designed to work with 68k that "Software AGA" is very hard to do, without doing full system (=slow) emulation.

But I believe you do not mean "for emulating" or running old SW, but as a future AAAA/RTG?

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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BigD 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 28-Nov-2019 11:12:25
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5158
From: UK

@KimmoK

The fact that there has been some success patching AGA games such as Alien Breed 3D 2 and SimCity 2000 to RTG suggests it is possible to 'adapt' AGA demanding software for emulation / RTG use! I've been told that Deluxe Paint 4 is partially usable (not animation features) with AmigaOS 4.x.

Last edited by BigD on 28-Nov-2019 at 11:13 AM.

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Srtest 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 3:51:04
#109 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 242
From: Israel, Haderah

@BigD

I'm not talking about patching anything. Go outside the bubble for a while and learn what you can achieve today with software in audio, video and gfx. I'm running a virtual mixer with Viper4windows that operates in ways most non-costly sound equipment can't. I'm doing this in combination with a hacked X-fi driver after the recent update broke it. In gfx, I'm running both dgvoodoo2 and Reshade to recreate gfx of old with a combination of new shaders, including artificial raytracing. All injected via various apis - Vulkan, DX, OpenGL. I'm using both madVR as renderer and MPV HDR implementation to get some sort of HDR without a proper screen (plus 60fps viewing with cpu/gpu combo frame interpolation).

All of this looked like sci-fi about a decade ago. The task of trying to recreate Amiga with audio convoluters and gfx reshading might be far fetched for some. It shouldn't be. Nothing will ever be exactly like it used to. Beneath a Steel Sky with ScummVM and Reshade introducing a crt screen effect gets pretty close. A couple of others and a good memory for how the game felt on yesterday's tech and you can have more than a simple emulation.

Last edited by Srtest on 29-Nov-2019 at 03:53 AM.
Last edited by Srtest on 29-Nov-2019 at 03:52 AM.

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sTix 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 8:02:46
#110 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 98
From: Lund, Sweden

Has anyone here looked into this?:

https://genode.org/index

It's a very ambitious project with good documentation. And it's exotic enough for Amigans

It could perhaps be a compromise catering for some of the needs that have been discussed in the past. I remember seeing discussions about running Linux on a separate core in parallel to AmigaOS as a middleware providing some of the features that are missing right now, like a modern browser etc etc.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 9:02:41
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5158
From: UK

@Srtest

Wow sounds complicated! Good luck with your super emulation quest.

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paolone 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 9:03:34
#112 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1060
From: Unknown

@sTix

You're all using the wrong approach to the problem.

Your first concern is "what the platform can do?", while the real questions should be: "what the user would do? and how?".

First start with user needs, and please remember where you are from: a console system which only eventually became a computer, the most revolutionary computer system of its times. We needed a powerful computer system being able to give us marvellous games, shiny color graphics and stereo sound, in a way our old Commodore 64 and similar 8-bit systems simply dreamt about.

But today? What would a USER want today?

That's the starting point for any "next gen anything" related project.

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nikosidis 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 11:00:15
#113 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 952
From: Norway, Oslo

I only see Amiga NG system as a possible retro system. It got to be compatible with the old stuff but also possible to take advantage of faster 68k than on original hardware. Just like we had 060 Cards.
This is exactly what the Vampire hardware does.
To me it is the only sensible market. A retro system where you can play old and new productions based on old Tech. Pixel art, SID sounds, low res. All that goes With it and to me that is the beauty is.
Why does all the major consoles come back in new editions like Super Nintendo, C-64 and PS1. It is cause it is demand for that stuff.

Vampire is for now in beta stage. The stand alone must eventualy come down in price and be Amiga branded.

Last edited by nikosidis on 29-Nov-2019 at 11:00 AM.

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sTix 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 14:26:31
#114 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 98
From: Lund, Sweden

@paolone

Sure, the question is who the user is.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 15:29:55
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5684
From: Unknown

@sTix

as I understand "a USER" he means not solely members of the amiga community but general people using computers today. If you could make a system (perhaps bundle OS/applications) that solves the problem of most computer users better than other platforms it could be successful.

But... that would be a huge task

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megol 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 29-Nov-2019 18:25:06
#116 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 334
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

That's fine but what you want isn't a next generation system, it's improved support for Vampire/Apollo_68080.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 4-Dec-2019 11:59:31
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5684
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

lots of interesting new games for classic announced for 2020

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=99887

it will be a interesting year

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