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      /  Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
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TRIPOS 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 1:42:45
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1041
From: Unknown

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Altera isn’t Apple. Apple has been creating their own micro-architectures for years, and they have completely different characteristics compared to other CPU’s. They are very far from the standard reference designs from ARM, souped up or not. We know this for certain based on what Apple has delivered the last half decade in the phone segment. But we have not yet seen their CPU’s for laptops or desktops. A fair guess is that they will at least be on par with Intel and AMD offerings for the laptop/desktop segments. Possibly better.


@LarsB

Quote:
Microsoft did an attempt to unify the mobile and desktop world. They did approach the goal from two sides. 1. Making Windows 8.1 which was an absolute desaster. Everyone wanted the old GUI and feeling back. 2. Making Windows RT which failed, too.


Windows 10 is a bit more successful in this, don’t you think? But maybe it will indeed be Apple who succeeds and does it right. Time will tell...


@arthoropod

Quote:
Considering I just spoent almost $1000 for a Macbook for my neice a few months ago, it pisses me off.


No reason for that IMHO. CPU architectures is not something an end-user will even have to care about.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 2:20:35
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 328
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@TRIPOS

Fair point friend Tripos, fair point indeed.
And most certainly, those custom designs and optimizations on top of "reference arm" wouldn't have been possible without vertical integration.

So, let's witness once again the magic embrace, the mystic fornication of hardware and software that know one each other so intimately and exclusively they blend together in an unending performance orgasm!


VVVVOOOOORRRRRRR

MEGA RJM

Last edited by MEGA_RJ_MICAL on 26-Jun-2020 at 06:59 AM.

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asymetrix 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 8:00:34
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 856
From: United Kingdom

@thread

Developers are already finding current Arm SOC a nightmare to maintain with open source devs getting upset with so called 'open source hardware with Arm', not being truely open source.

Some universities and opensource movement are excited about potential for Risc V and IoT.


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paolone 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 8:22:20
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1070
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:
Apple did a pretty good job of sabotaging PowerPC


m68k, PowerPC, x86-64... they are all instruments, not football teams or religions. They are the ground software is developed on, but like any other instrument they can be changed if you need something different: as like as you won't use a tail piano if you need synth sound (but both of them have a keyboard), computer companies can decide to switch processor models or even architectures, if they feel they aren't fitting their needs (whatever they are) anymore.

Apple lost interest into PPC processors due to their cost, their low performance per watt ratio and when it became clear that you need many of them to keep up with best x86-64 processors, making a high-performer laptop impossible to make. Moreover, I guess at the same time some smart guy at Intel approached them with a very interesting price for their upocoming, successfull Core processors. What followed it's history: PPC-on-the-desktop was a so great successfull idea that NOBODY (except our ininfluental dead-before-birth AmigaOnes) even considered trying it.

Yes, Apple abandon was the end of PPC on desktop computers, but what was the cause and what the effect?

Apple made its own business as it is doing today: it has developed all the skills it needs to create their own processors and, for whatever reason they studied for a long time, they decided it was time to use them for their computers too. They have already changed three architectures over time, they have the expertise to do that and even the long-sight to make their software easy portable on different platforms.

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arthoropod 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 9:04:24
#45 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 79
From: Gotham

@paolone

Total Apple fanboy BS.
Apple does what it wants to, and it makes their systems LESS interesting to me because they aren't that interested in what the customer wants.
Its a "here we know better than you attitude" and again, it pisses me off.

Over priced systems with odd feature sets. Like the lack of touch screens on their laptops, how far out of touch can you get and still attract sales?

If it satisfies some of you, I'm glad, but I really regret buying that Macbook for my neice. I can see them quickly dropping support for their X64 hardware as they moved forward AND I can see some users buying into it and buying new hardware just to have a supported system.

Suckers!

Last edited by arthoropod on 26-Jun-2020 at 09:59 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 10:11:42
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5361
From: UK

@arthoropod

_________________
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OlafS25 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 10:12:35
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5758
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

Apple is mainly iPhone (around 70%). The computer are only a niche product for "creatives" willing to pay lots of money. The products are certainly not bad and still have some advantages compared to windows and linux but the price is certainly premium. You pay a lot more for the "apple" on it. And the attitude that apple knows what is good for the customers and not asks when changing something is not new.

If you do not like all that (like I do) simply not buy a Mac. Problem solved.

Changing to the own processors is the will to control everything in the Mac world and the view that they can do everything cheaper themselves.

Finally Apple is profit, profit, profit...

if you do not like it do not support it

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LarsB 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 11:05:02
#48 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 43
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS OK, forgive me if I am not getting the catch but Windows 10 Mobile is practically dead and is has no meaning on the market. Only 0.4% of all mobile devices are using windows in the one or other form.

But thinking about the whole thing ... what disturbs me really? I personally think that Apple has developed dictatorial tendencies when it comes to DRM.
Everything has to go over the AppleStore. Also most of the contend. I think the new OS will reinforce this tendencies. A nice and polished look but you are asort of excluded from the OS. When you are a small developper you are under the complete control of Apple then. Thats only my personal opinion.

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BigD 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 12:11:16
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5361
From: UK

@LarsB

Quote:
Everything has to go over the AppleStore. Also most of the contend. I think the new OS will reinforce this tendencies. A nice and polished look but you are asort of excluded from the OS. When you are a small developper you are under the complete control of Apple then. Thats only my personal opinion.


Yeah, because if they can achieve control of the delivery system they can (and do already in the iOS market) skim off 30% of the transaction value for just owning the store! "Think Profit!"

@Olaf25

Quote:
And the attitude that apple knows what is good for the customers and not asks when changing something is not new.

If you do not like all that (like I do) simply not buy a Mac. Problem solved.


The attitude that 'they know best' is a delusion and throwback to Jobs' 'Reality Distortion Field' (Trademark pending ). They don't know best; the Mac Pro 2013 proved it, the exodus of Mac game developer support (Frontier Developments etc) proves it and the rise of Adobe Premiere over Final Cut Pro and the derision of the Macbook Pro's 'Touch Bar' prove it!

Apple are a rudderless ship at this point; trying to be 'gadget jewellery' trend setters while losing Jony Ive the only man capable of keeping that particular gravy train on the tracks!

I expect to see the Mac fall from grace in the creative 'Pro' market and for Apple to knuckle down on marketing increasingly overpriced phones and tablets. Maybe the Mac will become an iPad Ultra-Pro (they can have the branding )

Sadly, the recently relaunched Mac Pro is a zombie product at this point and will not survive the Arm transition IMHO. And anyway, why would you buy this x86-64 powerhouse now when the whole ISA is on its way out? Maybe we'll see Ł500 discounted 2019 Mac Pros on the Apple Website shortly

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LarsB 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 12:27:03
#50 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 43
From: Unknown

@BigD They want to get the 30% for sure. Maybe someone says "Why not? If you are buying apple you have to be aware of it". But it goes to far. It happened for example that you bought a song and it was already yours but you kept it in the cloud..now the song becomes censored because of using the F* word ...you suddenly found the censored verrsion of the song in your cloud storage and not the song you bought.

Its a little extreme example. But that that is generally the way they are thinking. Also when you are writting SW on iOS. You have to go their way or you going nowhere. This is the final result of it. And the New MacOS 11 beta shows that this indeed what we got to expect.

And the ARM stuff? No dedicated GPU. Low clockrate. Extensive use of the powersaving makes it less rersponsive. Thats my psersonal opinion.

Last edited by LarsB on 26-Jun-2020 at 01:36 PM.

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arthoropod 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 13:52:21
#51 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 79
From: Gotham

@OlafS25

Quote:
Finally Apple is profit, profit, profit...if you do not like it do not support it


Not to worry, I don't.

And I don't see the "advantages" of it.

I prefer to stay in commodity market.

Although I'm not too happy with Win10 and Microsoft either.

Maybe it is time to take Linux more seriously.

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OlafS25 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 26-Jun-2020 15:50:05
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5758
From: Unknown

@BigD

something to smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9IoSPT-suc

old macintosh ad where they promote themselves as fighters for freedom

seen today it is almost ironic

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matthey 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 27-Jun-2020 1:48:41
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 758
From: Kansas

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
Altera isn’t Apple. Apple has been creating their own micro-architectures for years, and they have completely different characteristics compared to other CPU’s. They are very far from the standard reference designs from ARM, souped up or not. We know this for certain based on what Apple has delivered the last half decade in the phone segment. But we have not yet seen their CPU’s for laptops or desktops. A fair guess is that they will at least be on par with Intel and AMD offerings for the laptop/desktop segments. Possibly better.


MEGA_RJ_MICAL is talking about the "Altra" server CPU from Ampere *not* "Altera" the business known for its FPGA chips that was bought by Intel. The Ampere core is based on the ARM Holdings Neoverse N1 core for servers. Apple's A12 SoC performance core requirements are similar even though the A12 has custom hardware for smartphone acceleration. All 3 cores are AArch64, OoO, designed for performance and available in 7nm die size. Let's not forget how much difference die shrinks make for performance. TSMC claims its 7nm node provides around 35-40% speed improvement or 65% lower power than its 16 nm process. In practice, ARM claims a 30% performance boost from this die shrink (30% from design changes and 30% from die shrink).



It is no wonder that these cores at 7nm look good compared to many desktop and laptop x86_64 cores. The first generation Core i7 was at 45nm die size before being shrunk to 32nm, 22nm and 14nm. From 45nm to 7nm chip die size could be as much as 200% performance gain for a core!

I believe that ARM AArch64 is gaining on x86_64 in performance as the designs are getting better quickly while x86_64 designs are very mature already. The powerful addressing modes of AArch64 help remove some of the bottleneck RISC has in memory but also could limit how high these chips can be clocked which is ironic because that was one of the excuses for abandoning CISC. When compared using the same process, I expect x86_64 cores will remain the best at the ever important single core performance and allow higher clocks but ARM can provide more cores in the same area for parallel processing and to save power. ARM finally adopted SMT and in one case was seeing a 20% reduction in cache misses. While I expect POWER has more efficient SMT, ARM cores are relatively cheap and most of the work is done. IBM has to do all their own development for POWER and expects higher margins than ARM charges where costs are spread out among many customers. Here is a really good article on ARM Holding's business model.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/7112/the-arm-diaries-part-1-how-arms-business-model-works

I expect POWER would be a casualty before x86_64. IBM could sell and service AMD chips for servers and ARM chips for embedded and they would likely be money ahead right now. They have partnered with AMD and ARM before. ARM is winning the financial battle on the back of the embedded market.

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matthey 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 27-Jun-2020 2:05:11
#54 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 758
From: Kansas

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
something to smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9IoSPT-suc

old macintosh ad where they promote themselves as fighters for freedom

seen today it is almost ironic


Even more ironic are the women and Apple symbol in color when the Macintosh was not but the Amiga a few months later was.

Nobody is forcing people to buy Apple products so they can never be as oppressive as governments where every law is a threat of force. Apple is better known for product quality and technology than customer service or ethics which seems to be common for large companies. Then again, they weren't ethical when they were smaller either but that was mostly due to Steve Jobs.

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paolone 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 27-Jun-2020 13:43:48
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1070
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

Quote:
Total Apple fanboy BS.


Well, the fact that you name my words like that shows your scarce ability to understand how reality works.

You are the one who bought a Mac for his nephew. Not me.

I would never buy either a Mac, or an iPad, or an iPhone, neither for me, nor for any of my relatives. The last Apple product which entered my home is an already used G3 iBook with the white shell, I used for a while as a "second laptop" with MacOS 9. My applephobia is due to higher price of their products, with no real advantage over more mainstream hardware and operating systems.

This does not forbid me to understand how Apple business model works and why they are now changing architecture again. The only thing I can agree with you, is that you're right to regret your choice about buying a Mac. You have to: first voices about an architecture switch to ARM are 12+ months old, so you could figure your new computer would quickly loose value and appeal. But you bought it anyway. Are you sure you should really blame Apple for this?

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kolla 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 28-Jun-2020 10:24:39
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1508
From: Trondheim, Norway

Apple “moved to ARM” 27 years ago :)

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BigD 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 28-Jun-2020 14:55:59
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5361
From: UK

@kolla

Yeah, but the Newton hardly set the world on light did it? What product line did that lead onto? Flash in the pan springs to mind!

Now they're betting the whole Mac line on the fact that people really want an iOS laptop!

Clue: We don't! Please ask us the customers Apple the next time you want to screw up some people's favourite modern computer line.

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evilFrog 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 28-Jun-2020 20:29:37
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2004
Posts: 351
From: UK

@kolla

The Newton was fantastic. If you whipped it at someone’s head hard enough, you could properly knock them out.

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Rose 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 28-Jun-2020 21:27:20
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 705
From: Unknown

@evilFrog

Quote:
The Newton was fantastic. If you whipped it at someone’s head hard enough, you could properly knock them out.


And it was a raging success compared to Pippin

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evilFrog 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 28-Jun-2020 22:02:25
#60 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2004
Posts: 351
From: UK

@Rose

Quote:

Rose wrote:
@evilFrog

Quote:
The Newton was fantastic. If you whipped it at someone’s head hard enough, you could properly knock them out.


And it was a raging success compared to Pippin


Ah, Pippin. PPC 603e if I remember right. Anyone want to attempt an AmigaOS port?

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