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      /  It's time to join the forces... part...?
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AmigaBlitter 
It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 14:00:48
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3427
From: Unknown

Hello Amigans,

how many thread i opened about this argument? Can't remember...

To alla Amigans... let's join the forces!

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michalsc 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 14:04:50
#2 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 265
From: Germany

@AmigaBlitter

Popcorn!

Open source is the answer ;)

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number6 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 14:31:12
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10845
From: In the village

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
how many thread i opened about this argument? Can't remember...


Heh. I absolutely refuse to count them, but you started back in '06:

It's time to join the forces

#6

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 16:32:05
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@michalsc

Only if people are contributing, not just pulling changes from github.

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bison 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 18:04:32
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1603
From: N-Space

@AmigaBlitter

I think you missed last year, didn't you?

Anyway, I'm with @michalsc on this: open source is the answer. Anything less is the same meager existence we've had for the past 25 years.

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Hypex 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 18:10:58
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9935
From: Greensborough, Australia

@AmigaBlitter

So, to put it another way, should the guys developing UNIX team up with the guys developing Linux? After all one is practically a clone of the other, wouldn't they benefit by creating just one free and open source OS? Not just apart?

I purposely use UNIX and Linux as an example because I think it compares well to the Amiga scene. So first there was AmigaOS. Then we had AROS which was an open source portable clone, or copy. We then saw AmigaOS4 built off the sources of OS3 on PPC. And MorphOS, being another AmigaOS3 copy with custom style also on PPC, with good 68K compatibility.

Can they join forces? How could they? Why would they? Is how I would summarse the situation. If I know the meaning of what joining forces you intended.

I don't recall what I commented last time, if I did, but I'm sure I would have. I don't think they can join forces. The OS4 guys may not want to admit it but realistcally both AROS and MorphOS is their competition. It doesn't matter if the source is with them. May the source be with you. There would surely be a sense of pride being built off the source. But you still need to defend your honour to keep your place. Pride won't keep the enemy from one upping you and putting you down in your place.

AROS and MOS can collaborate. Which they do. And it can benefit OS4 also. This is joining forces. It's all the joining I would expect.

Because when it comes down to it, I don't see The Three Musketeers happening here. All for one and one for all. Right now, Hyperion is somewhat in control of both OS3 and OS4 releases. Both OS3 and OS4 are closed sourced and sold for a price. MOS is largely closed source and also sold for a price. More a price than a profit these days. AROS is free and open source but can also be bought prebuilt for a price. By now it's obvious this joint custody arrangement can never work the way things are structured now. Hyperion are never going to allow anyone else in. After all, they would be revealing private sources to publicly interested parties, to share the load. And the MOS guys would need to do the same. I don't see this happening.

With respect to their positions, they are enemies. I don't expect this to change. And I haven't even mentioned Cloanto yet!

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Fl@sh 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 18:41:52
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 157
From: Napoli - Italy

@Hypex

Cloanto!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 19:04:40
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@Fl@sh

Cloanto is just grabbing stuff from Aminet and pirate sites stamp Clonto copyright and zip it, renamed the .zip file. in recent years they have investing in brand names, so they can tax the software companies that do stuff. There contribution to Amiga community is truly depressing.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jun-2020 at 07:05 PM.

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bison 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 21:06:11
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1603
From: N-Space

@Fl@sh

...is key. If Hyperion prevails in court, we're going to have more of the same. If C-A, Cloanto et al. prevail, then the situation may change, hopefully for the better. But I guess we won't know until 2021, at the earliest.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 29-Jun-2020 21:28:44
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@bison

Yep there is chance that if C-A fails the name / contract right past on next company that buys rights to brand names, and as result we end up in the exact same position, one company control the brand names, and one company controls the source code. Another option is that if C-A wins, the source code is owned by individual developers because they were not compensated for the work, due lack funding, due to legal issues, and as result lots individual components might not be transferred. Already ExecSG is owned by Trever.

In case of Hyperion going bankrupt the assets will be transferred to creditors (developers.)

During bankruptcy, your trustee[?] may be able to claim, and sell, some of your possessions (assets). Your trustee can use proceeds from the sale of your assets to repay money you owe to creditors[?]. Assets may include, but are not limited to, real estate, vehicles, bank balances, tools, lottery winnings.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jun-2020 at 09:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jun-2020 at 09:32 PM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 0:32:37
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 261
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
Anyway, I'm with @michalsc on this: open source is the answer. Anything less is the same meager existence we've had for the past 25 years.


I AGREE



MRJM

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DiscreetFX 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 0:38:40
#12 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 1872
From: Chicago, IL

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

I see you finally got rid of your finally crafted plywood desk.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 30-Jun-2020 at 12:41 AM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 1:08:58
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 261
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

I see you finally got rid of your finally crafted plywood desk.


Friend DiscreetFX,

you truly aren't familiar with the timing and contextualization of humorous commenting, are you?

MRJM

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michalsc 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 6:47:27
#14 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 265
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:
I purposely use UNIX and Linux as an example because I think it compares well to the Amiga scene. So first there was AmigaOS. Then we had AROS which was an open source portable clone, or copy. We then saw AmigaOS4 built off the sources of OS3 on PPC. And MorphOS, being another AmigaOS3 copy with custom style also on PPC, with good 68K compatibility.

Can they join forces? How could they? Why would they? Is how I would summarse the situation. If I know the meaning of what joining forces you intended.


That's why I wrote "popcorn" first. No, the teams with their current operating systems cannot collaborate more, not to mention joining the forces. We have here two closed source systems and one open source. Each of them is holding many thousands of lines of code contributions from many developers. Some of them could agree to "join" the systems, some would not.

Joining of the forces at the very moment in order to work on a one Amiga-Morph-AR-OS is not possible. Some would have to share the code (which they eventually do not want to share), some would have to give up their solution in favor of some other. At least two teams would need to give up on the OS name. Not to mention antagonisms between individuals.

But, if there is ever a new version of AmigaOS going to happen, a version inspired on the Amiga "spirit" which breaks up the compatibility with the classic line, then I think it would be a perfect time to join the forces and create something absolutely new. Of course open source :) That would be more or less a clean start for all three teams.

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 11:17:50
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5752
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

and Hyperion is exploiting the work of others who (whyever) contribute free of charge to invest it mainly in lawsuits

The same happened with Toni Wilen who offered them a market and got no official support (as far as I know) despite them selling a lot of additional licenses

Truly depressing too

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 11:21:51
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5752
From: Unknown

@michalsc

+1

if you take core components like desktop, RTG, USB-Stack and so on

in some cases two of three use common components but nowhere something is used on all platforms

So to "join" developers would have to give up the own components in favor of a common solution. Or just think of "money". It would end in tears when the discussion would be who gets what of potential sales

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FairBoy 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 12:24:39
#17 ]
New Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2020
Posts: 4
From: Unknown

@OlafS25
This is no valid argument. Hyperion is not forcing anybody to work for free. Whyever? The people who contribute to Hyperion's products do so because they want to do so, the main reason being that they love AmigaOS. Also, I strongly doubt that you are well informed enough to tell if people are never paid.

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Fl@sh 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 13:36:34
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 157
From: Napoli - Italy

@OlafS25

Quote:
The same happened with Toni Wilen who offered them a market and got no official support (as far as I know) despite them selling a lot of additional licenses


Now I undestand why he regrets any support to WinUAE PowerPC extensions.
It really could have been the most spreaded Amiga, and being virtual it could never be broken/damaged
It could have been the only amiga going faster passing time..

Giving a fee to Toni for any OS4 classic sale, could has been a good way to improve user base, attracting old and new users.
Sadly time is over.

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Hypex 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 16:34:29
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9935
From: Greensborough, Australia

@michalsc

Quote:
That's why I wrote "popcorn" first. No, the teams with their current operating systems cannot collaborate more, not to mention joining the forces. We have here two closed source systems and one open source. Each of them is holding many thousands of lines of code contributions from many developers. Some of them could agree to "join" the systems, some would not.


Let the popcorn begin.

AROS is the most diverse across a variety of plarforms. MOS will soon diverge on AMD64 in a paradigm shift. While OS4 is running out of CPUs.

Quote:
Joining of the forces at the very moment in order to work on a one Amiga-Morph-AR-OS is not possible. Some would have to share the code (which they eventually do not want to share), some would have to give up their solution in favor of some other. At least two teams would need to give up on the OS name. Not to mention antagonisms between individuals.


In all this we are in agreement.

Quote:
But, if there is ever a new version of AmigaOS going to happen, a version inspired on the Amiga "spirit" which breaks up the compatibility with the classic line, then I think it would be a perfect time to join the forces and create something absolutely new. Of course open source :) That would be more or less a clean start for all three teams.


Well it sounds like going back to AROS there. But, would they then give up their work for free? Or get paid to write "free" open source software? And what about platform support? Unless they stick it on top of another kernel, which would be a bit of a hack for a fresh start, supporting generic hardware would require hundreds of boards and drivers to be tested and written.

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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces... part...?
Posted on 30-Jun-2020 17:33:43
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@AmigaBlitter

Any proposal to join forces for the average culture level stupid Amigans with no imagination, equals to utopia.

Any resonable suggestion is marked with the stamp of madness. Any provoking will not even shake their mind. They are stuck in a perpetual apathy.

These people had no idea how innovative was the machine they used, just for videogames and how visionary were Amiga creators, and the efforts they made to became their project came to life...

Do not ask join forces to people who cannot share any visionary project.

It had been better if Amiga had never existed and all these donkeys being stuck with IBM PC Compatible Computers with Intel 8088 CPUs and CGA graphics.


So this time I will respectfully decline partecipating your call.

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