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      /  Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
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Poll : Have Amiga's biggest assets become liabilities?
Yes
No
I don't care, I'm just along for the ride.
The relationship is complicated. (Explain)
 
PosterThread
simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 22:00:44
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 879
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@bison

Quote:
function assign

Sure, but it still lacks the support in the OS. I mean, I can't do "assign c: /usr/local/bin /usr/local/share/bin /usr/local/share/eiffel-8.4.1/bin" (say) and then expect "c:ec" to set off my eiffel compiler, or even "/c/ec" etc.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 23:30:25
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 971
From: Kansas

petrol Quote:

PAsemi 1682M was launched in 2007 and it was allready outdated when it was used in the X1000 11 years ago.
It should be compare to an intel core duo or core 2 duo cpu at the same frequency range imho.


Both the PA Semi PA6T-1682M and Core 2 Duo were released in 2006-2007 and have some similarities but there is one major difference.

Intel Core 2 Duo (Desktop Allendale), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 65W TDP
Intel Core 2 Duo (Mobile Merom), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 35W TDP
PA Semi PA6T-1682M, 2 cores, 2x2MiB L2, 65nm, 5W-13W@2GHz

The PA6T-1682M was designed from the ground up to be Power efficient (PWRficient is the name of the series of processors focused on performance/Watt). The processor was designed for the embedded and storage systems markets as these are easier to enter than server and mobile markets where performance/Watt is also important. The PA6T-1682M is full featured and follows standards unlike some other PPC processors which cut features to reduce power (reduces static power and cost but can reduce performance/Watt). The PA6T-1682M may have been better used in a fanless or mobile Amiga but it had full expansion capabilities of a desktop due to its flexible design. Comparing the performance to desktop computers sacrificing power for performance is not fair. If it has the performance of a Core 2 Duo using as low of power as it does then it would be impressive. This is the processor that PPC needed to retain the high performance embedded market (PPC doesn't have the code density to compete well in the mid or low performance embedded markets). Losing PA Semi was a big blow to PPC as it was the only completely new and innovative PPC design outside of the reworked AIM alliance designs.

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bison 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 23:48:20
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1819
From: N-Space

@simplex

Quote:
I mean, I can't do "assign c: /usr/local/bin /usr/local/share/bin /usr/local/share/eiffel-8.4.1/bin" (say) and then expect "c:ec" to set off my eiffel compiler, or even "/c/ec" etc.

I left all that as an exercise for the reader.

One would have to bypass the shell and use OS system calls to add some features. But my assign glass is one-quarter full, and I find it quite useful as-is.

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simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 1:29:41
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 879
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@bison

Quote:
One would have to bypass the shell and use OS system calls to add some features. But my assign glass is one-quarter full, and I find it quite useful as-is.

That's fine; I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 1:34:52
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4139
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
petrol Quote:

PAsemi 1682M was launched in 2007 and it was allready outdated when it was used in the X1000 11 years ago.
It should be compare to an intel core duo or core 2 duo cpu at the same frequency range imho.


Both the PA Semi PA6T-1682M and Core 2 Duo were released in 2006-2007 and have some similarities but there is one major difference.

Intel Core 2 Duo (Desktop Allendale), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 65W TDP
Intel Core 2 Duo (Mobile Merom), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 35W TDP
PA Semi PA6T-1682M, 2 cores, 2x2MiB L2, 65nm, 5W-13W@2GHz

The PA6T-1682M was designed from the ground up to be Power efficient (PWRficient is the name of the series of processors focused on performance/Watt). The processor was designed for the embedded and storage systems markets as these are easier to enter than server and mobile markets where performance/Watt is also important. The PA6T-1682M is full featured and follows standards unlike some other PPC processors which cut features to reduce power (reduces static power and cost but can reduce performance/Watt). The PA6T-1682M may have been better used in a fanless or mobile Amiga but it had full expansion capabilities of a desktop due to its flexible design. Comparing the performance to desktop computers sacrificing power for performance is not fair. If it has the performance of a Core 2 Duo using as low of power as it does then it would be impressive. This is the processor that PPC needed to retain the high performance embedded market (PPC doesn't have the code density to compete well in the mid or low performance embedded markets). Losing PA Semi was a big blow to PPC as it was the only completely new and innovative PPC design outside of the reworked AIM alliance designs.

Core 2 Duo "Merom" dual cores L7xxx and U7xxx series have 10 to 17 watts respectively.

PWRficient processors were initially shipped to select customers in February 2007 and were released for worldwide sale in Q4 2007.

35 watts "Merom" is for gaming laptops such as ASUS G1S.

Higher watts "Conroe" and "Allendale" are for desktops.

Core 2 Duo L7700 has a 1.8 Ghz clock speed.

Multiple grades enable Intel to deliver higher product deliveries to the supply chain which is important for supporting Intel's partner's revenue stream. High product availability for sale is important for consumers.

https://openbenchmarking.org/result/1303300-FO-AMIGAONEX47
Amiga X1000 Linux, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 98.69 seconds
PA6T at 1.8Ghz


https://openbenchmarking.org/test/pts/encode-mp3
Intel Core 2 Duo T7100 at 1.8Ghz, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 71 seconds

For modern comparsion

AMD Ryzen 5 4500U (Zen 2, 15 watts to 25 watts), Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 8 seconds


My selection for TF1260 is due to product availability i.e. shorter express an interest to shipping time interval and cheaper. I gave up on waiting for Vampire 1200 and 450 translates to $548 USD or $706.94 AUD.



Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:24 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:20 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:04 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:49 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:43 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:42 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:35 AM.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 3:17:00
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 971
From: Kansas

Hammer Quote:

Core 2 Duo "Merom" dual cores L7xxx and U7xxx series have 10 to 17 watts respectively.


The 10W TDP U7xxx has half the L2 cache. I can believe 17W TDP for the L7xxx but would like to know the difference between it and the T7xxx listed as 35W TDP.

Hammer Quote:

PWRficient processors were initially shipped to select customers in February 2007 and were released for worldwide sale in Q4 2007.


It is more important to compare the same die size than date. I know Intel was richer than PA Semi and could afford a more expensive process sooner.

Hammer Quote:

https://openbenchmarking.org/result/1303300-FO-AMIGAONEX47
Amiga X1000 Linux, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 98.69 seconds
PA6T at 1.8Ghz

https://openbenchmarking.org/test/pts/encode-mp3
Intel Core 2 Duo T7100 at 1.8Ghz, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 71 seconds


I'm not surprised by the results. Apple interrupted the rollout and support of the PA6T-1682M which is a new PPC design likely needing significantly different instruction scheduler support compilers may have never received. PA6T-1682M actually performed pretty well considering it is lower power, albeit by how much we don't know. TDP is deceptive, not comparable across architectures and does not give a frequency. Nobody gives peak/max Watts at a frequency anymore. Realistic power usage is more important but varies too much for a general purpose processor to make comparisons. In any case, I would expect PA6T-1682M to use half the power or less of the most comparable Core 2 Duo and beat it in the coveted performance/Watt category. No wonder Apple bought PA Semi. It was a great startup by pros from Digital involved in the Alpha design. I wish I had spotted PA Semi back then and bought some stock. Then again, Apple stock has been a safer investment with plenty of appreciation and even a dividend.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 5:46:05
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4139
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

The 10W TDP U7xxx has half the L2 cache. I can believe 17W TDP for the L7xxx but would like to know the difference between it and the T7xxx listed as 35W TDP.

FYI, T7100 has a 2MB L2 cache. T7xxx 35 watts TDP is for infrastructure requirements for OEM builders.

T7100 (1.8Ghz) will generate less real-life TDP when compared to T7600 (2.3 Ghz) which also has 35 watts TDP, but T7xxx shares the same 35 watts TDP infrastructure.

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors#%22Merom%22,_%22Merom-2M%22_(standard-voltage,_65_nm)

T7100 with 2MB L2 cache and 0.95 to 1.175 V

L7700 with 4MB L2 cache and 0.90 to 1.1 V

L7700 is like a silicon lottery with the lottery removed by additional testing by Intel.

I don't think Motorola has a silicon quality screening regime like Intel/AMD's since Motorola doesn't separate 100 Mhz passing 68060s Rev 6 as a separate SKU model number e.g. FX, X, K, U, T, KS

If Intel running Motorola, 68060 would be known as Quintium (based on Latin's quintus or fifth as in the fifth element)

Quintium with passing the 50 Mhz test would have Quintium 6050
Quintium with passing the 50 Mhz and low voltage test would have Quintium 6050T

Quintium with passing the 66 Mhz test would have Quintium 6066
Quintium with passing the 50 Mhz and low voltage test would have Quintium 6066T

Quintium with passing the 90 Mhz test would have Quintium 6090
Quintium with passing the 90 Mhz test with higher voltage would have Quintium 6090D

Quintium with passing the 100 Mhz test would have Quintium 6100K

Quintium with passing the 120 Mhz test would have Quintium 6120KS

Quintium with passing the ultra voltage test would have Quintium 6xxxU

Some of 68060 at 50 Mhz Rev 1 can reach 66 to 75 Mhz, but they are not screened into a separate SKU.

Core i7-4790K "Devil's Canyon" is a revised and best speed bin Haswell for higher speed when compared to Core i7-4770K. Core i7-4790K can also reach ultra-low-voltage without crashing.

My Core i7-4790K can reach 4.5 Ghz stock voltage while my other Core i7-4770K could reach 4.2 Ghz with a minor voltage increase. Some Core i7-4790K could reach 4.7 Ghz.

My point, Intel separates good quality silicon from the rest.

Intel also sells lesser quality silicon at higher voltage CPUs to improve yields, hence improve price and maximize availability.



Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 06:12 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 06:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 06:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 05:56 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 05:48 AM.

_________________
Intel Core i9-9900K, DDR4-3800 32 GB RAM, MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti GX Trio
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, ASUS GeForce RTX 2080 EVO OC
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, TF1260, 128 MB)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

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terminills 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 12:22:21
#28 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1396
From: Unknown

@simplex

https://github.com/TheBeef/AmigaAssign

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terminills 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 12:24:49
#29 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1396
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow


I use AROS SMP quite extensively :P

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 16:13:15
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2043
From: Chicago, IL

@terminills

What do you use SMP for?

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Lou 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 17:50:14
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4072
From: Rhode Island

@DiscreetFX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C43zMLu1Z7s

RPI4 AROS NATIVE 64bit SMP-enabled should be the standard Amiga today.

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bison 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 23:40:29
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1819
From: N-Space

@terminills

Quote:
https://github.com/TheBeef/AmigaAssign

Thanks for the link!

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matthey 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 12-Jun-2021 0:46:09
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 971
From: Kansas

Hammer Quote:

I don't think Motorola has a silicon quality screening regime like Intel/AMD's since Motorola doesn't separate 100 Mhz passing 68060s Rev 6 as a separate SKU model number e.g. FX, X, K, U, T, KS


Motorola does product binning too. There was a 60MHz full 68060 although they are older masks and don't clock up nearly as much as a 50MHz rated rev 6 68060. There were also speed rated EC and LC 68060s up to 75MHz as I recall. Higher clock speed ratings usually aren't as important for embedded markets which the 68060 was mostly being sold into. Keeping the clock speed ratings low helped to encourage potential "desktop" customers to switch to PPC and kept PPC from looking as bad due to problems of clocking the shallower pipeline PPC processors up. It was embarrassing enough that the 68060 outperformed some newer lower end PPC processors at the same clock speed due to better cache efficiency from better code density.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 13-Jun-2021 0:37:24
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2274
From: Minnesota, USA

@simplex

Quote:

simplex wrote:
@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
For my OS pursuits I've moved on to Haiku. It was pervasively multicore from the beginning; it's the open-source spinoff of the BeBox.

How do you like Haiku? I tried it some years ago but it wasn't far along enough for me to accomplish the work I need to do. I don't remember the details, though.


The third beta is going to be out in about a month with most of the improvements in the WebKit-based WebPositive browser. There is one other browser using the QtWebKit called Otter MSE that streams video but uses Qt5 rather than native GUI. There are audio drivers for more systems now, and LibreOffice also.

The one sore spot is graphics drivers. There have been some attempts at getting modern Intel graphics cores to work by way of Mesa but Linux drivers call so many internal functions of the Linux kernel that they are unusable by Haiku. In one thread, a developer said that the Linux graphics drivers of a modern graphics card use so much code that it's as big as the rest of the Haiku put together. Using the same driver source as Fuchsia looks like a promising lead, however. The licenses are compatible and some of the same people are working on Google's Zircon microkernel as started Haiku's NewOS kernel.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 13-Jun-2021 0:41:36
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2274
From: Minnesota, USA

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

Samurai_Crow wrote:
@FairBoy

I used to be an Amiga fanboy. I paid $1400 USD for my MicroA1 back in the day. I got a used G4 Mac Mini without PSU fo $50 USD, MorphOS license for $90 and scrounged a PSU from my old Core2 Duo Mac Mini. Unless that PSU was worth $1200 I can afford to be a little lower in my expectations. How much does an AmigaOne model with an up-to-date graphics card and drivers go for nowadays?

I do have a 6-year-old i7 gaming rig but even running it on a freebie Linux install it outperforms an x1000, I'm pretty sure. The x1000 is dual-core but running a freebie install of Linux on it uses both cores. Neither MorphOS nor AmigaOS 4.1fe support the second core on an x5000. Face it, the operating system is the limiting factor.


The latest X86 CPUs still have "uber" single thread performance mode due to non-DX12 PC gaming benchmark marketing. For small thread count workloads, the CPU will attempt to use the available TDP headroom for auto-overclock boost mode.

Intel Haswell CPU like Core i7-4770K will crush X1000's dual-core PWRficient PA6T-1682M.

6-year-old Core i7 is the Skylake generation e.g. Core i7-6700K


I think mine's the Haswell. It's a quad-core i7 with dual-threaded cores clocked at 3.5 GHz. I'm using the 16 GB of DDR3 that came with it.

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simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 13-Jun-2021 1:34:34
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 879
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
@simplex
Quote:
How do you like Haiku?

The third beta is going to be out in about a month...

That's interesting, and I appreciate your sharing it, but it doesn't answer my question! How do you like it? If I might elaborate, how does it work for your day-to-day usage?

Last edited by simplex on 13-Jun-2021 at 01:35 AM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 14-Jun-2021 5:43:25
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2274
From: Minnesota, USA

@simplex

Quote:

simplex wrote:

That's interesting, and I appreciate your sharing it, but it doesn't answer my question! How do you like it? If I might elaborate, how does it work for your day-to-day usage?

I like it better than all of my other alternate OSs. I run it in VMWare Player on my Linux system. The tab-and-stack features of the GUI make some glue programs more minimal than they would otherwise need to be. Linux ports like LibreOffice are not so elegant as the open-sourced holdovers from BeOS.

As an example, the Paladin IDE is more DE than I. The syntax highlighting editor that came with the OS was PE which stands for Program Editor. The third-party replacement for PE that I prefer is Koder. In order to get Paladin to integrate with Koder, I just changed a MIME type in the preferences and maybe one in Paladin's config file. Now if I want it all to work in one window, I just take the Koder window, hold down Alt-meta and drop it beside Paladin's window and they stack as if they were one window. Likewise, I grab my BASH window and drop it on top of the Koder window with Alt-meta and those quirky looking title-bar tabs suddenly function as tabbed document windows with no need for the tabs to even be the same executable, let alone integrated. The OS GUI just takes care of it.

It's faster than Linux too with its pervasive multithreading and SMP architecture. I think it's mostly due to the small footprint in RAM. Now if they could just get some decent hardware accelerated graphics....

Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 14-Jun-2021 at 05:46 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 14-Jun-2021 7:27:07
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4139
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

Motorola does product binning too. There was a 60MHz full 68060 although they are older masks and don't clock up nearly as much as a 50MHz rated rev 6 68060. There were also speed rated EC and LC 68060s up to 75MHz as I recall. Higher clock speed ratings usually aren't as important for embedded markets which the 68060 was mostly being sold into. Keeping the clock speed ratings low helped to encourage potential "desktop" customers to switch to PPC and kept PPC from looking as bad due to problems of clocking the shallower pipeline PPC processors up. It was embarrassing enough that the 68060 outperformed some newer lower end PPC processors at the same clock speed due to better cache efficiency from better code density.

I'm aware Motorola has their "speed binning" regime but they are not aggressive when compared to Intel.

I purchased 68060 Rev 1 for myTF1260 and overclocked to 63 Mhz without heatsink and temperature are about 40 degrees C (via laser based temperature gun) when running Quake and PC Task 4.0.

Pentium 60/66 equivalent has Intel's official heatsink and fan combo.

Motorola's embedded market excuse killed Motorola/Freescale from the workstations and desktops.

Prior to CPUs such as HP PA-RISC, DEC Alpha, Sun SPARC, and Hitachi SuperH, these companies were selling 68K based *nix workstations and 68K licensed clones.

ARM focused on mobile and do it good.
Intel X86 focused on the desktop and do it good.

Motorola 68K CPU family gradually drop from workstation powerhouse CPU to low compute performance embedded.

This is why I "hate" Hector Ruiz (was the president of Motorola's Semiconductor Products prior to year Sep 2000) and under his watch that AMD almost died.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRRDRkFW0AAc1JH?format=jpg&name=large
AMD Bulldozer (weak cores with many thread focus, internet server and FMA math server targets) was under development under Ruiz. Weak core Bulldozer was the 1st X86 with FMA features just like PowerPC FMA.

Intel doesn't need advice from Hector Ruiz.

I'm not going to defend and make excuses for Motorola.





Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:45 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:34 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:30 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:29 AM.

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AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, ASUS GeForce RTX 2080 EVO OC
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