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      /  Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
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Poll : Have Amiga's biggest assets become liabilities?
Yes
No
I don't care, I'm just along for the ride.
The relationship is complicated. (Explain)
 
PosterThread
simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 22:00:44
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@bison

Quote:
function assign

Sure, but it still lacks the support in the OS. I mean, I can't do "assign c: /usr/local/bin /usr/local/share/bin /usr/local/share/eiffel-8.4.1/bin" (say) and then expect "c:ec" to set off my eiffel compiler, or even "/c/ec" etc.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 23:30:25
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

petrol Quote:

PAsemi 1682M was launched in 2007 and it was allready outdated when it was used in the X1000 11 years ago.
It should be compare to an intel core duo or core 2 duo cpu at the same frequency range imho.


Both the PA Semi PA6T-1682M and Core 2 Duo were released in 2006-2007 and have some similarities but there is one major difference.

Intel Core 2 Duo (Desktop Allendale), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 65W TDP
Intel Core 2 Duo (Mobile Merom), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 35W TDP
PA Semi PA6T-1682M, 2 cores, 2x2MiB L2, 65nm, 5W-13W@2GHz

The PA6T-1682M was designed from the ground up to be Power efficient (PWRficient is the name of the series of processors focused on performance/Watt). The processor was designed for the embedded and storage systems markets as these are easier to enter than server and mobile markets where performance/Watt is also important. The PA6T-1682M is full featured and follows standards unlike some other PPC processors which cut features to reduce power (reduces static power and cost but can reduce performance/Watt). The PA6T-1682M may have been better used in a fanless or mobile Amiga but it had full expansion capabilities of a desktop due to its flexible design. Comparing the performance to desktop computers sacrificing power for performance is not fair. If it has the performance of a Core 2 Duo using as low of power as it does then it would be impressive. This is the processor that PPC needed to retain the high performance embedded market (PPC doesn't have the code density to compete well in the mid or low performance embedded markets). Losing PA Semi was a big blow to PPC as it was the only completely new and innovative PPC design outside of the reworked AIM alliance designs.

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bison 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 23:48:20
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1864
From: N-Space

@simplex

Quote:
I mean, I can't do "assign c: /usr/local/bin /usr/local/share/bin /usr/local/share/eiffel-8.4.1/bin" (say) and then expect "c:ec" to set off my eiffel compiler, or even "/c/ec" etc.

I left all that as an exercise for the reader.

One would have to bypass the shell and use OS system calls to add some features. But my assign glass is one-quarter full, and I find it quite useful as-is.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 1:29:41
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@bison

Quote:
One would have to bypass the shell and use OS system calls to add some features. But my assign glass is one-quarter full, and I find it quite useful as-is.

That's fine; I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 1:34:52
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4251
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
petrol Quote:

PAsemi 1682M was launched in 2007 and it was allready outdated when it was used in the X1000 11 years ago.
It should be compare to an intel core duo or core 2 duo cpu at the same frequency range imho.


Both the PA Semi PA6T-1682M and Core 2 Duo were released in 2006-2007 and have some similarities but there is one major difference.

Intel Core 2 Duo (Desktop Allendale), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 65W TDP
Intel Core 2 Duo (Mobile Merom), 2 cores, 4MiB shared L2, 65nm, 35W TDP
PA Semi PA6T-1682M, 2 cores, 2x2MiB L2, 65nm, 5W-13W@2GHz

The PA6T-1682M was designed from the ground up to be Power efficient (PWRficient is the name of the series of processors focused on performance/Watt). The processor was designed for the embedded and storage systems markets as these are easier to enter than server and mobile markets where performance/Watt is also important. The PA6T-1682M is full featured and follows standards unlike some other PPC processors which cut features to reduce power (reduces static power and cost but can reduce performance/Watt). The PA6T-1682M may have been better used in a fanless or mobile Amiga but it had full expansion capabilities of a desktop due to its flexible design. Comparing the performance to desktop computers sacrificing power for performance is not fair. If it has the performance of a Core 2 Duo using as low of power as it does then it would be impressive. This is the processor that PPC needed to retain the high performance embedded market (PPC doesn't have the code density to compete well in the mid or low performance embedded markets). Losing PA Semi was a big blow to PPC as it was the only completely new and innovative PPC design outside of the reworked AIM alliance designs.

Core 2 Duo "Merom" dual cores L7xxx and U7xxx series have 10 to 17 watts respectively.

PWRficient processors were initially shipped to select customers in February 2007 and were released for worldwide sale in Q4 2007.

35 watts "Merom" is for gaming laptops such as ASUS G1S.

Higher watts "Conroe" and "Allendale" are for desktops.

Core 2 Duo L7700 has a 1.8 Ghz clock speed.

Multiple grades enable Intel to deliver higher product deliveries to the supply chain which is important for supporting Intel's partner's revenue stream. High product availability for sale is important for consumers.

https://openbenchmarking.org/result/1303300-FO-AMIGAONEX47
Amiga X1000 Linux, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 98.69 seconds
PA6T at 1.8Ghz


https://openbenchmarking.org/test/pts/encode-mp3
Intel Core 2 Duo T7100 at 1.8Ghz, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 71 seconds

For modern comparsion

AMD Ryzen 5 4500U (Zen 2, 15 watts to 25 watts), Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 8 seconds


My selection for TF1260 is due to product availability i.e. shorter express an interest to shipping time interval and cheaper. I gave up on waiting for Vampire 1200 and 450 translates to $548 USD or $706.94 AUD.



Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:24 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:20 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 02:04 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:49 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:43 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:42 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 01:35 AM.

_________________
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Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 2080 Ti
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, TF1260, 68060 @ 63 Mhz, 128 MB)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

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matthey 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 3:17:00
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

Hammer Quote:

Core 2 Duo "Merom" dual cores L7xxx and U7xxx series have 10 to 17 watts respectively.


The 10W TDP U7xxx has half the L2 cache. I can believe 17W TDP for the L7xxx but would like to know the difference between it and the T7xxx listed as 35W TDP.

Hammer Quote:

PWRficient processors were initially shipped to select customers in February 2007 and were released for worldwide sale in Q4 2007.


It is more important to compare the same die size than date. I know Intel was richer than PA Semi and could afford a more expensive process sooner.

Hammer Quote:

https://openbenchmarking.org/result/1303300-FO-AMIGAONEX47
Amiga X1000 Linux, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 98.69 seconds
PA6T at 1.8Ghz

https://openbenchmarking.org/test/pts/encode-mp3
Intel Core 2 Duo T7100 at 1.8Ghz, Phoronix LAME MP3 encoding benchmark = 71 seconds


I'm not surprised by the results. Apple interrupted the rollout and support of the PA6T-1682M which is a new PPC design likely needing significantly different instruction scheduler support compilers may have never received. PA6T-1682M actually performed pretty well considering it is lower power, albeit by how much we don't know. TDP is deceptive, not comparable across architectures and does not give a frequency. Nobody gives peak/max Watts at a frequency anymore. Realistic power usage is more important but varies too much for a general purpose processor to make comparisons. In any case, I would expect PA6T-1682M to use half the power or less of the most comparable Core 2 Duo and beat it in the coveted performance/Watt category. No wonder Apple bought PA Semi. It was a great startup by pros from Digital involved in the Alpha design. I wish I had spotted PA Semi back then and bought some stock. Then again, Apple stock has been a safer investment with plenty of appreciation and even a dividend.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 5:46:05
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4251
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

The 10W TDP U7xxx has half the L2 cache. I can believe 17W TDP for the L7xxx but would like to know the difference between it and the T7xxx listed as 35W TDP.

FYI, T7100 has a 2MB L2 cache. T7xxx 35 watts TDP is for infrastructure requirements for OEM builders.

T7100 (1.8Ghz) will generate less real-life TDP when compared to T7600 (2.3 Ghz) which also has 35 watts TDP, but T7xxx shares the same 35 watts TDP infrastructure.

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors#%22Merom%22,_%22Merom-2M%22_(standard-voltage,_65_nm)

T7100 with 2MB L2 cache and 0.95 to 1.175 V

L7700 with 4MB L2 cache and 0.90 to 1.1 V

L7700 is like a silicon lottery with the lottery removed by additional testing by Intel.

I don't think Motorola has a silicon quality screening regime like Intel/AMD's since Motorola doesn't separate 100 Mhz passing 68060s Rev 6 as a separate SKU model number e.g. FX, X, K, U, T, KS

If Intel running Motorola, 68060 would be known as Quintium (based on Latin's quintus or fifth as in the fifth element)

Quintium with passing the 50 Mhz test would have Quintium 6050
Quintium with passing the 50 Mhz and low voltage test would have Quintium 6050T

Quintium with passing the 66 Mhz test would have Quintium 6066
Quintium with passing the 50 Mhz and low voltage test would have Quintium 6066T

Quintium with passing the 90 Mhz test would have Quintium 6090
Quintium with passing the 90 Mhz test with higher voltage would have Quintium 6090D

Quintium with passing the 100 Mhz test would have Quintium 6100K

Quintium with passing the 120 Mhz test would have Quintium 6120KS

Quintium with passing the ultra voltage test would have Quintium 6xxxU

Some of 68060 at 50 Mhz Rev 1 can reach 66 to 75 Mhz, but they are not screened into a separate SKU.

Core i7-4790K "Devil's Canyon" is a revised and best speed bin Haswell for higher speed when compared to Core i7-4770K. Core i7-4790K can also reach ultra-low-voltage without crashing.

My Core i7-4790K can reach 4.5 Ghz stock voltage while my other Core i7-4770K could reach 4.2 Ghz with a minor voltage increase. Some Core i7-4790K could reach 4.7 Ghz.

My point, Intel separates good quality silicon from the rest.

Intel also sells lesser quality silicon at higher voltage CPUs to improve yields, hence improve price and maximize availability.



Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 06:12 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 06:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 06:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 05:56 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jun-2021 at 05:48 AM.

_________________
Core i9-9900K, DDR4-3800 32 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 3080 Ti
Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 2080 Ti
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, TF1260, 68060 @ 63 Mhz, 128 MB)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

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terminills 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 12:22:21
#28 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1399
From: Unknown

@simplex

https://github.com/TheBeef/AmigaAssign

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Support AROS sponsor a developer.

"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

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terminills 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 12:24:49
#29 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1399
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow


I use AROS SMP quite extensively :P

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Support AROS sponsor a developer.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 16:13:15
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2047
From: Chicago, IL

@terminills

What do you use SMP for?

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Lou 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 17:50:14
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4107
From: Rhode Island

@DiscreetFX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C43zMLu1Z7s

RPI4 AROS NATIVE 64bit SMP-enabled should be the standard Amiga today.

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bison 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 11-Jun-2021 23:40:29
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1864
From: N-Space

@terminills

Quote:
https://github.com/TheBeef/AmigaAssign

Thanks for the link!

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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matthey 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 12-Jun-2021 0:46:09
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

Hammer Quote:

I don't think Motorola has a silicon quality screening regime like Intel/AMD's since Motorola doesn't separate 100 Mhz passing 68060s Rev 6 as a separate SKU model number e.g. FX, X, K, U, T, KS


Motorola does product binning too. There was a 60MHz full 68060 although they are older masks and don't clock up nearly as much as a 50MHz rated rev 6 68060. There were also speed rated EC and LC 68060s up to 75MHz as I recall. Higher clock speed ratings usually aren't as important for embedded markets which the 68060 was mostly being sold into. Keeping the clock speed ratings low helped to encourage potential "desktop" customers to switch to PPC and kept PPC from looking as bad due to problems of clocking the shallower pipeline PPC processors up. It was embarrassing enough that the 68060 outperformed some newer lower end PPC processors at the same clock speed due to better cache efficiency from better code density.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 13-Jun-2021 0:37:24
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2293
From: Minnesota, USA

@simplex

Quote:

simplex wrote:
@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
For my OS pursuits I've moved on to Haiku. It was pervasively multicore from the beginning; it's the open-source spinoff of the BeBox.

How do you like Haiku? I tried it some years ago but it wasn't far along enough for me to accomplish the work I need to do. I don't remember the details, though.


The third beta is going to be out in about a month with most of the improvements in the WebKit-based WebPositive browser. There is one other browser using the QtWebKit called Otter MSE that streams video but uses Qt5 rather than native GUI. There are audio drivers for more systems now, and LibreOffice also.

The one sore spot is graphics drivers. There have been some attempts at getting modern Intel graphics cores to work by way of Mesa but Linux drivers call so many internal functions of the Linux kernel that they are unusable by Haiku. In one thread, a developer said that the Linux graphics drivers of a modern graphics card use so much code that it's as big as the rest of the Haiku put together. Using the same driver source as Fuchsia looks like a promising lead, however. The licenses are compatible and some of the same people are working on Google's Zircon microkernel as started Haiku's NewOS kernel.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 13-Jun-2021 0:41:36
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2293
From: Minnesota, USA

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

Samurai_Crow wrote:
@FairBoy

I used to be an Amiga fanboy. I paid $1400 USD for my MicroA1 back in the day. I got a used G4 Mac Mini without PSU fo $50 USD, MorphOS license for $90 and scrounged a PSU from my old Core2 Duo Mac Mini. Unless that PSU was worth $1200 I can afford to be a little lower in my expectations. How much does an AmigaOne model with an up-to-date graphics card and drivers go for nowadays?

I do have a 6-year-old i7 gaming rig but even running it on a freebie Linux install it outperforms an x1000, I'm pretty sure. The x1000 is dual-core but running a freebie install of Linux on it uses both cores. Neither MorphOS nor AmigaOS 4.1fe support the second core on an x5000. Face it, the operating system is the limiting factor.


The latest X86 CPUs still have "uber" single thread performance mode due to non-DX12 PC gaming benchmark marketing. For small thread count workloads, the CPU will attempt to use the available TDP headroom for auto-overclock boost mode.

Intel Haswell CPU like Core i7-4770K will crush X1000's dual-core PWRficient PA6T-1682M.

6-year-old Core i7 is the Skylake generation e.g. Core i7-6700K


I think mine's the Haswell. It's a quad-core i7 with dual-threaded cores clocked at 3.5 GHz. I'm using the 16 GB of DDR3 that came with it.

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simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 13-Jun-2021 1:34:34
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
@simplex
Quote:
How do you like Haiku?

The third beta is going to be out in about a month...

That's interesting, and I appreciate your sharing it, but it doesn't answer my question! How do you like it? If I might elaborate, how does it work for your day-to-day usage?

Last edited by simplex on 13-Jun-2021 at 01:35 AM.

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I've decided to follow an awful lot of people I respect and leave AmigaWorld. If for some reason you want to talk to me, it shouldn't take much effort to find me.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 14-Jun-2021 5:43:25
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2293
From: Minnesota, USA

@simplex

Quote:

simplex wrote:

That's interesting, and I appreciate your sharing it, but it doesn't answer my question! How do you like it? If I might elaborate, how does it work for your day-to-day usage?

I like it better than all of my other alternate OSs. I run it in VMWare Player on my Linux system. The tab-and-stack features of the GUI make some glue programs more minimal than they would otherwise need to be. Linux ports like LibreOffice are not so elegant as the open-sourced holdovers from BeOS.

As an example, the Paladin IDE is more DE than I. The syntax highlighting editor that came with the OS was PE which stands for Program Editor. The third-party replacement for PE that I prefer is Koder. In order to get Paladin to integrate with Koder, I just changed a MIME type in the preferences and maybe one in Paladin's config file. Now if I want it all to work in one window, I just take the Koder window, hold down Alt-meta and drop it beside Paladin's window and they stack as if they were one window. Likewise, I grab my BASH window and drop it on top of the Koder window with Alt-meta and those quirky looking title-bar tabs suddenly function as tabbed document windows with no need for the tabs to even be the same executable, let alone integrated. The OS GUI just takes care of it.

It's faster than Linux too with its pervasive multithreading and SMP architecture. I think it's mostly due to the small footprint in RAM. Now if they could just get some decent hardware accelerated graphics....

Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 14-Jun-2021 at 05:46 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 14-Jun-2021 7:27:07
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4251
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

Motorola does product binning too. There was a 60MHz full 68060 although they are older masks and don't clock up nearly as much as a 50MHz rated rev 6 68060. There were also speed rated EC and LC 68060s up to 75MHz as I recall. Higher clock speed ratings usually aren't as important for embedded markets which the 68060 was mostly being sold into. Keeping the clock speed ratings low helped to encourage potential "desktop" customers to switch to PPC and kept PPC from looking as bad due to problems of clocking the shallower pipeline PPC processors up. It was embarrassing enough that the 68060 outperformed some newer lower end PPC processors at the same clock speed due to better cache efficiency from better code density.

I'm aware Motorola has their "speed binning" regime but they are not aggressive when compared to Intel.

I purchased 68060 Rev 1 for myTF1260 and overclocked to 63 Mhz without heatsink and temperature are about 40 degrees C (via laser based temperature gun) when running Quake and PC Task 4.0.

Pentium 60/66 equivalent has Intel's official heatsink and fan combo.

Motorola's embedded market excuse killed Motorola/Freescale from the workstations and desktops.

Prior to CPUs such as HP PA-RISC, DEC Alpha, Sun SPARC, and Hitachi SuperH, these companies were selling 68K based *nix workstations and 68K licensed clones.

ARM focused on mobile and do it good.
Intel X86 focused on the desktop and do it good.

Motorola 68K CPU family gradually drop from workstation powerhouse CPU to low compute performance embedded.

This is why I "hate" Hector Ruiz (was the president of Motorola's Semiconductor Products prior to year Sep 2000) and under his watch that AMD almost died.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRRDRkFW0AAc1JH?format=jpg&name=large
AMD Bulldozer (weak cores with many thread focus, internet server and FMA math server targets) was under development under Ruiz. Weak core Bulldozer was the 1st X86 with FMA features just like PowerPC FMA.

Intel doesn't need advice from Hector Ruiz.

I'm not going to defend and make excuses for Motorola.

AC68080 in 1994 would have enabled an easy path for competitive system evolution.

After factor is Commodore's lack of balance between low-end A1200 and expensive A4000. In 1993 and Doom type game use cases, Commodore could have A1200 + 68LC040 + 4MB fast ram + small IDE HD for about $799 to compete against $1000 based 486 based PCs.


Last edited by Hammer on 15-Jun-2021 at 08:11 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:45 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:34 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:30 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Jun-2021 at 07:29 AM.

_________________
Core i9-9900K, DDR4-3800 32 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 3080 Ti
Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 2080 Ti
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, TF1260, 68060 @ 63 Mhz, 128 MB)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

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simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 15-Jun-2021 4:23:59
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Samurai_Crow

Thanks. I downloaded RC3 and tried it on the desktop I'd use, were I to use it. It looked nice, runs much smoother than I remember the last time I tried it, but alas, it doesn't come with wireless support for my WinTel modem, so I wasn't able to do much, and decided not to install it.

I don't blame them for that at all; even with Linux I have issues, because the kernel developers find it entertaining to change the API, breaking the kernel module that would otherwise automatically recompile and re-install every time the kernel updates -- only to change it back to what it was before on the next kernel update, breaking the module yet again. Yes, I'm exaggerating and possibly mis-describing the problem a little, but breaking the kernel module twice within a very short timespan literally happened once to me once. Perhaps one day perhaps I will get a modem that works with more machines.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 20-Jun-2021 8:15:20
#40 ]
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4251
From: Australia

@matthey

From http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=1491547#post1491547 since you are banned from eab forum

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthey View Post
We can do a little better armchair analysis of Hombre.

The "CPU chip" was doing most of the 3D, general purpose processing and could act as a logic controller.

The "CPU chip" included a PA-RISC (probably 7150@125MHz) with SIMD (maybe MAX-2?). It sounds like the SIMD was customized and used for 3D probably giving much of the performance.


There was probably a good relationship with HP as this sounds like a reasonable price. Perhaps C= finally made the deal they needed but too late.

Let's evaluate the PA-RISC 7150 (introduced in 1994) with SIMD. It was based on the PA-RISC 7100 using the same fab process but with improved circuit design to allow 125MHz. The PA-RISC was one of the first general purpose processors to include an SIMD called MAX which processed only 32 bits as 2x16 bit data at one time using a single instruction (1.9x to 2.7x fps speedup claimed for MPEG video, convolve 512x512, zoom 512x512 and H.261 video). MAX-2 could process 64 bits as 4x16 bit data at one time using a single instruction (likely 2x the performance of 32 bit MAX).

The PA-RISC 7100@99MHz (L1: 256kB ICache/256kB DCache) without SIMD could decode MPEG 320x240 video at 18.7 fps. My 68060@75MHz (L1: 8kB ICache/8kB DCache) using the old RiVA 0.50 decodes MPEG video between 18-22fps (average ~20fps). An update to the new RiVA 0.52 works now giving 21-29 fps (average is ~26fps with more 68060 optimization possible). Note that the PA-RISC 7100 was introduced in 1992 and used in technical and graphical workstations and computing servers while the 68060 was introduced in 1994 for desktop and embedded applications (less demanding and lower cost applications). The PA-RISC 7100LC@60MHz (L1: 32kB ICache/32kB DCache) introduced in 1994 with SIMD (initially 32 bit MAX but may have been upgraded to MAX-2 later?) could do 26fps decoding 320x240 MPEG. MAX not only improved the performance (finally better than the 68060 at MPEG fps) but improved the code density by replacing many RISC instructions allowing the cache sizes to be reduced tremendously. The PA-RISC 7100LC@80MHz (L1: 128kB ICache/128kB DCache) with MAX SIMD could do 33fps decoding 320x240 MPEG. The Apollo Core 68k@78MHz should be about the same performance, if not a little better, without using an SIMD (the Apollo Core with SIMD is likely twice as fast as the PA-RISC 7100LC@80MHz in MPEG decoded fps). As we can see, the PA-RISC had unimpressive performance even with an SIMD and lots of resources.

http://www.ee.princeton.edu/~rblee/H...dMicroproc.pdf

There were other 3D graphics chips which went on to use an SIMD processor in a somewhat similar configuration like the Broadcom VideoCore with ARM CPU as used in the Raspberry Pi. High end graphics boards eventually moved on to more specialized parallel processing units but have a logic controller CPU to process the I/O and feed the specialized units. It looks like this configuration allows more parallelization than an SIMD and scales better while the SIMD can be started quicker (less latency), is easier to program (relative as still not easy to program) and can improve code density (which reduces caches needed) if general purpose enough.

Could Hombre have saved C= from bankruptcy? Probably not as it was not far enough along in development. It was probably on par with the PS1 but wasn't finished so maybe would have had to compete with the PS2. Would C= have been pursuing the PA-RISC if they know now what the 68k could do as presented here? If they were smart, they would have been looking to license or buy the rights to the 68060 from Motorola (should have been cheap as it was undervalued and discarded for PPC) and perhaps add their own SIMD as it would have saved them the development effort of porting the AmigaOS to PA-RISC and they could have done it as a much prioritized effort to make a single chip Amiga (68k+custom chips) SoC. Then again, knowing C=, they would have probably tried to create a 68030 based SoC instead of 68060 based one as they lacked a tech savvy vision with good leadership.



PA-7100LC has an extra integer unit and is designed as a low-cost microprocessor for low-end systems.

The first systems to feature the PA-7100LC were introduced in January 1994. These systems used 60 and 80 MHz parts. A 100 MHz part debuted in June 1994

The PA-7100LC was based on the PA-7100. Major improvements were improved superscalar execution and an extra integer unit.

Superscalar execution was improved by adding the extra integer unit and modifying the control logic so that two integer instructions, two load-store units, or an integer and a load-store can be issued in one cycle in addition to the existing instruction combinations supported by the PA-7100

From https://www.wikiwand.com/en/PA-7100LC

68060 needs 0.6 micrometre process fab tech with 2,500,000 transistors. 68060 Rev 1 can be overclocked to 63 Mhz on TF1260 with ease.

PA-7100LC needs 0.8 micrometre process fab tech with 900,000 transistors. 1994 PA-7100LC at 0.8 micrometre process fab can reach 100 Mhz.

Each integer unit can support SIMD32 (2X packed INT16).

PA-7100LC at 100 Mhz would give 1994 Pentium 100 Mhz some heartburn but in 1995, Intel released classic Pentium 200 Mhz and Pentium Pro (up to three instruction issue per cycle, out-of-order processing) 200 Mhz.

0.8 micrometre process fab tech for Pentium 50 to 66.
0.6 micrometre process fab tech for Pentium 75 to 120.
0.35 micrometre process fab tech for Pentium 120 to 200.


Amiga Hombre has extra hardware for texture mapping, Gouraud shading and Z-buffering.

Hombre was to be fabricated in 0.6 micrometre 3-level metal CMOS with the help of Hewlett-Packard.

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Jun-2021 at 08:20 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 20-Jun-2021 at 08:19 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 20-Jun-2021 at 08:18 AM.

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