@BigD

1. The ideological gap between a typical Afgan Muslim male's "way of life" and the Taliban is narrow.

In the west, the feminist movement is supported and tolerated by its male counterpart e.g. the argument of every girl and woman can have a brother, dad, boyfriend, and 'etc'.

Logistics argument doesn't address the "opium of the mind" or the spiritual aspect (a.k.a after-life policy).

West's "freedom and democracy" didn't address "opium of the mind" or the spiritual aspect.

2. Taliban used Sun Tzu's "Art of War" tactics i.e. winning the war with minimal armed conflict by placating the Afgan army with an acceptable exit path.

US latest debacle may lead to core EU member state's federalization. For Canada, Australia, NZ, and UK, there's the CANZUK movement as an alternative to the US.

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Aug-2021 at 04:11 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Aug-2021 at 04:01 AM.

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@BigD

Quote:

I think allied intel officers/support staff for equipment maintenance and logistics should have remained to aid and inform the young national fighting force to give them a chance. The UK has no problem aiding and supporting Saudi Arabia in pummelling the Yemeni Houthi forces despite NO moral mandate to do so! However, it is seemingly not even considered by Biden in a situation where his nation has invested $88 billion in this project!

Both Saudi and Yemeni Houthi are divided between Sunni Islam vs Shia Islam. There are "opium of the mind" aspects on both sides.

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It puzzles me how easily they got so many good weapons though, someone is lying ....

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@BigD

There is still some resistance against the Taliban. The Nothern Alliance flag was flown in the Panjshir early last week. The Panjshir Valley is a stronghold that neither the USSR or later the Taliban were able to conquer.

Amrullah Saleh the VP went to Panjshir rather than flee the counrty like the corrupt president. He was a close aide to Ahmad Shah Massoud the Northern Alliance commander who was assasinated by Al Qaeda a few days before the September 11th attacks on the US. Along with other seasoned commanders is the Ahmad Massoud who was just twelve years old when his father was killed. They claim to have been stockpiling weapons for the last 20 years in anticipation that the Taliban may again sieze power. Apparently they have already been joined by other forces that refused to lay down their weapons and were calling for more to join along with request for foreign help.

I have been watching this story unfold over the past week. It's unknown exactly what hardware and forces they have at their disposal since they are understandably closely guarded about their capabilies.
Many experts including some who worked allongsiede the Northern Alliance in it's previous guise doubted the new force would be able to do much beyond holding Panjshir stating that the new Taliban is stonger than ever and Ahmad Massoud does not garner the the support his father had as well as being surround on all side.

If reports over the last few days are correct they have already taken control of disricts to the north of Panjshir which is a push towards the border of Tajikistan which would open up supply lines. More recent reports suggest that they now control Parwen province with speculation that they are attempting to encircle Kabul and take Bagram air base. How much truth there is to the reports of gains and wether they can lead a successful campaign to erdicate the Taliban in Kabul remain to be seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6s-Y3FMBKA

@BigD

There aren't any Americans in this discussion until now To be a truly impartial observer of this mess you'd have to be an alien from another planet. I think an alien watching the situation unfold for twenty years would think that America had good intentions. He / it would see the generosity of America. They gave the Afghans billions of dollars worth of infrastructure, schools, government. A "normal" country would take this gift and use it to jumpstart a modern civilization. The fact that Afghanistan didn't want the gift is hard for Americans to understand. So it's time to gather up our things and go home.

Biden has done something that many presidents haven't dared to do because of the unavoidable political costs. I think history will look favorably at Biden for finally getting us out of Afghanistan. You have to get all the Americans out to make a real end to it. You can't leave a few to keep propping up the creaking Afghan government. That isn't ending it.

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@Hammer,

Your right, they are from different Tribes, as such they fight for the tribe not the country. They all push and pull from different directions and therefor can't work as one, this makes it a complete failure.

Chris

@thinkchip

Quote:

The fact that Afghanistan didn't want the gift is hard for Americans to understand. So it's time to gather up our things and go home.

Error 1) Afghanistan is not and has never been a centrally controlled nation state like most western democracies. A better analogy would be if the American states were still occupied with separate warring Native American tribes being forced to live under Washington jurisdiction!

Error 2) You don’t get to gather up ALL your things by leaving the Afghan government to crumble; all the Humvees, assault rifles and more specialised weaponry you gifted to the government now default to the Taliban. Terrorists thereby get a free windfall of indirect funding from America out of this. All the ‘over the horizon anti-terrorism’ initiatives at your disposal will not stop them supporting further western reprisals in the future. Hell, even the loyal Afghans will hate the west once all their police chiefs have been beheaded and their daughters dragged off against their will to be war brides to Taliban soldiers!

Biden will not be remembered. He is already seen as a weak president.

… oh yeah and the next time you decide to unilaterally negotiate the terms of a full scale withdrawal from a war zone with terrorists it would be common decency to consult with your allies first!

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@BigD,

And may I add, Take all your stuff with you.

Chris

@BigD

Quote:

Biden will not be remembered.

I suspect he will be, but not in a favorable light. I just hope there's not an imminent hostage crises.

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@QuikSanz

Having lived through the Age Of Trump Part 1 (Part 2 will be when he runs for president again in 2024, Heaven help us), I've learned a lot about my fellow Americans. They don't care about Mid-East politics, they never did. They barely care about American politics. Mid-East politics are too complicated for anyone to understand. Americans care about what we gave to Afghans, the roads, the schools, the restrooms. They care about the billions we spent. And the Afghans took it without saying "Thank you" and then they broke it and threw it away. In an area that is flooded with all kinds of weapons, a few more barely make a difference. History blurs things. What will matter is that we finally got out of Afghanistan and Biden did it.

And. The 9/11 attacks caught Americans by surprise. I won't be so easy next time. Forewarned it forearmed. If the people on the planes that hit the WTC knew they were going to die, they would have overwhelmed the terrorists and it never would have happened. The terrorists couldn't control a plane-full of desperate travelers who are late for their connecting flights.

Last edited by thinkchip on 23-Aug-2021 at 02:58 PM.

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@thinkchip

Quote:

And the Afghans took it without saying "Thank you"

It's similar in many ways to the way the USA took British jet engine and computer technology without saying "thank you", but then again I guess world history generally is too complicated for Americans to understand particularly the "learning from it" part. It's not the fact that you think the terrorists would use the same delivery method for an attack that is the most worrying, it's that you think America is safer today than 20 years ago despite spending that time brain washing the Afghan people as to the benefits of democracy (they saw only corruption in their own politicians), giving them a taste of freedom (where they still paid tax to the government and bribes to the Taliban) and then leaving them to the wolves when the chips were down! If there was ever a back story for a Bond villain that would be a good one! How many future terrorist masterminds will be created by Biden's craven pulling of the plug without giving the Afghan government any logistical support in their time of need?

No offence, I like the American missionaries/soldiers/citizens I've met (generally), but seriously to go from America: World Police to "what's it got to do with us" America in the space a four presidents is a bit jarring! I don't know how NATO will survive this mess never mind the so called "special relationship" with the UK. The next time you want an ally to give your nation credibility for a war abroad give Germany or Japan a ring as you've obviously no plans to take on board anything a British Prime Minister says in the future

Last edited by BigD on 23-Aug-2021 at 09:55 PM.

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@Thread

If Biden was in Dune 2 he'd definitely be Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV of House Corrino. He looks out for No.1 and pretends he's a global leader of the free world but is just a less honest Trump-like president with "America First" beliefs.

I wonder if the American Armed Forces will face a similar fate to the Sardaukar? Increasingly irrelevant and less effective as they are restricted to their homeland territory and bases. Maybe they'll eventually be replaced with the Fish Speakers - an all female army who will subdue even the Taliban (now there would be irony )!

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@BigD

I feel really bad about they way this worked out, our failure to support the Afgan people and their military, as well as the weapons, vehicles, and other assorted hardware we left behind.
I'm not sure who is to blame more, Trump or Biden, but Biden is the current President and lead the country during this event.
It's hard to believe that this outcome couldn't have been forseen.

For all the money the US throws at defense spending, you'd think our military endeavors would be more sucessful.
This was a disheartening end to an almost 20 year conflict, and one that no doubt will discourage our allies.

@BigD

Quote:

It's similar in many ways to the way the USA took British jet engine and computer technology without saying "thank you"

Yes, US gave only 31 Billion dollars worth of military hardware on lend lease ($470,171,833,333 of todays money) I guess that doesn't count as thank you.


Quote:

I guess world history generally is too complicated for Americans to understand

Irony of this...

@JimIgou

Yes to all of this. And it could get even worse on August 31.

Last edited by bison on 24-Aug-2021 at 05:37 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @thinkchip Quote: And the Afghans took it without saying "Thank you" It's similar in many ways to the way the USA took British jet engine and computer technology without saying "thank you", but then again I guess world history generally is too complicated for Americans to understand particularly the "learning from it" part. It's not the fact that you think the terrorists would use the same delivery method for an attack that is the most worrying, it's that you think America is safer today than 20 years ago despite spending that time brain washing the Afghan people as to the benefits of democracy (they saw only corruption in their own politicians), giving them a taste of freedom (where they still paid tax to the government and bribes to the Taliban) and then leaving them to the wolves when the chips were down! If there was ever a back story for a Bond villain that would be a good one! How many future terrorist masterminds will be created by Biden's craven pulling of the plug without giving the Afghan government any logistical support in their time of need? No offence, I like the American missionaries/soldiers/citizens I've met (generally), but seriously to go from America: World Police to "what's it got to do with us" America in the space a four presidents is a bit jarring! I don't know how NATO will survive this mess never mind the so called "special relationship" with the UK. The next time you want an ally to give your nation credibility for a war abroad give Germany or Japan a ring as you've obviously no plans to take on board anything a British Prime Minister says in the future

Post-WW2 UK Labour party also sold the Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine to the Soviets which later powered MIG 15's Klimov VK-1 variant.

Before the Korean War, CCP's MIG 15 defeated ROC's P-80 in China's civil war.

From the Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine tech transfer to the Soviets, the post-WW2 UK Labour party contributed to the Communist's armament in the Korean and Chinese civil war.

Post-WW2 UK Labour party has endangered Australia/New Zealand/Singapore/Malaysia/Philippines/Japan's national security with better armed CCP!!!

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Aug-2021 at 03:17 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Aug-2021 at 05:33 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Aug-2021 at 05:33 AM.

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@thinkchip

Quote:

thinkchip wrote: @QuikSanz Having lived through the Age Of Trump Part 1 (Part 2 will be when he runs for president again in 2024, Heaven help us), I've learned a lot about my fellow Americans. They don't care about Mid-East politics, they never did. They barely care about American politics. Mid-East politics are too complicated for anyone to understand. Americans care about what we gave to Afghans, the roads, the schools, the restrooms. They care about the billions we spent. And the Afghans took it without saying "Thank you" and then they broke it and threw it away. In an area that is flooded with all kinds of weapons, a few more barely make a difference. History blurs things. What will matter is that we finally got out of Afghanistan and Biden did it. And. The 9/11 attacks caught Americans by surprise. I won't be so easy next time. Forewarned it forearmed. If the people on the planes that hit the WTC knew they were going to die, they would have overwhelmed the terrorists and it never would have happened. The terrorists couldn't control a plane-full of desperate travelers who are late for their connecting flights.

Prior to 9/11, most western government advice in a terrorist takeover situations is for the civilians to remain passive and leave the negotiation to the "anti-terrorist professionals".

1 of 3 hijack planes has passengers overwhelmed terrorists with higher numbers, but the defensive action was too late to correct the plane's downward direction.

Against terrorists, forewarned 3rd party civilians to take hostile action is better.

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