@amigakit

I purchased Enhancer Software V1.5 to enhance my OS4 system and to support A-EON for your continued support for our platform. I installed most of the software included on the CD, including the sound package and SDK stuff.

My system included AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 1 + Enhancer V1.5

I was hoping that there was some communications and coordination between the Enhancer team and the Hyperion OS4 team. Perhaps, I should have known better.

Then AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 2 was announced, and I eagerly downloaded this package and updated my OS4 system. At first I did a simple update, then I realized that many of the Enhancer improvements were clobbered by the new OS4 package.

I was very annoyed by the lack of coordination between Hyperion OS4 team and Enhancer team. Perhaps this was unfair, but I really (mistakenly) thought that some of the same players worked on both teams.

My only choice was to start over from scratch, quick format, install AmigaOS 4.1 FE, install Update 1, install Update 2, (and the hot fix that was provided later), and install Enhancer software.

My current system includes ...
AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 2 (with hotfix) + parts of Enhancer v1.5

I have installed MultiEdit, MultiViewer, Updater, notification, classes and gadgets.

My system is currently working fine and I don't want to make any more system changes at this time.

I have nothing against A-EON or AmigaKit, but I don't want to mix and match system commands from multiple sources. I have already been down that path before, and I already have enough 3rd party software from multiple sources.

Perhaps I will change my mind when the A1222plus is actually available for sale.

My current system is a MicroA1 with IBM PPC 750 GX CPU, 256 MB of RAM, onboard Radeon 7000 chip, and 32 MB video RAM. Due to these limitations, I try to keep it simple.

---
redfox

Last edited by redfox on 04-Nov-2021 at 10:54 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 03-Nov-2021 at 08:15 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 03-Nov-2021 at 08:04 PM.

@AP

Quote:

AP wrote: @TRIPOS: It´s obvious that A-EON can't deliver their distribution with AOS4-files

Since no OS4 files (or Amiga OS files) are distributed it’s not an OS4 (or Amiga) distribution. You (and they) obviously want to make that emotional connection despite not being based on Amiga source code, not having the official branding and not having official endorsement from neither the owner of Amiga nor the publisher of OS4, but a third party re-implementation achieving compatibility through fresh code developed from scratch is hardly unique. It has happened tree times before (AROS, MorphOS and OS4), AeonKit’s effort will be the fourth Amiga re-implementation effort. You can use AmigaOS and AROS components in MorphOS. When Ambient was still underdeveloped it was not unusual that people installed Workbench (etc) on their MorphOS systems. But writing an installer that copies AmigaOS components (that are not included) to MorphOS does not turn MorphOS into an Amiga distribution. An installer copying AROS components (that are not included) to MorphOS does not make MorphOS an AROS distribution. You could say that MorphOS is a distribution of MorphOS files. Ikaros and Amikit are distributions of AROS files. And in that same sense, “System 54” is a distribution of System 54 files. But it’s not OS4, it’s not a distribution of OS4 and it’s not an evolution of OS4. It’s a separate, stand-alone third party project. Not being OS4 is the key point and driving motivator behind AeonKit’s OS re-implementation effort. They want to be able to control it themselves and they want to stay clear of Amiga source code copyrights and legal issues. Nothing wrong with that, if that’s how AeonKit believe is the best way to spend resources like time and money, it’s a free world.


Quote:

And they don't re-implement ALL AOAS4-components

Only because it’s still early in the game and it’s still incomplete. AROS, MorphOS and OS4 were all developed that way early on. This is the fourth time the history repeats that same pattern.

@redfox

Quote:

redfox wrote: I was hoping that there was some communications and coordination between the Enhancer team and the Hyperion OS4 team. Perhaps, I should have known better. Then AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 2 was announced, and I eagerly downloaded this package and updated my OS4 system. At first I did a simple update, then I realized that many of the Enhancer improvements were clobbered by the new OS4 package. I was very annoyed by the lack of coordination between Hyperion OS4 team and Enhancer team. Perhaps this was unfair, but I really (mistakenly) thought that some of the same players worked on both teams.

This is because they are both two separate, parallel OS development projects. AeonKit’s goal is to replace OS4. They may call it “enhancer” or “distribution” or whatever, but the goal for them is to create an OS that is separate and free from OS4 or Amiga source code and copyrights, thus its “developers are selected because they have not worked on AmigaOS source code and they have not been under any NDA by another company.” (Link) Had AeonKit really done a “distribution” of OS4 (relying on OS4 components) then it wouldn’t have been a problem. But they are doing a re-implementation, and when AeonKit and Hyperion developers are both making their own respective modifications and updates to the same system components in parallel, then those OS components are bound to get “clobbered” as you say.

AP Quote:

@TRIPOS: It´s obvious that A-EON can't deliver their distribution with AOS4-files, isn't it (court-cases anyone?)?

There is no court injunction stopping AeonKit from distributing AmigaOS 4. AeonKit may have stopped distributing AmigaOS 4 out of legal caution that they could be sued for damages by Cloanto/Amiga Corporation if they won the lawsuits and to try to remain neutral in the lawsuit battles. However, Hyperion may see the withdrawal of Hyperion products as siding with Cloanto/Amiga Corporation instead of neutrality. I expect the biggest legal risk is with the distribution of the 68k AmigaOS and not the PPC AmigaOS but AeonKit's lawyers may have advised to pull all Hyperion products.

Hypex Quote:

Looks like a bit of a mutiny afoot. Hyperion rely on AEON to provide drivers as FE is an incomplete OS with broken software included. Not only do AeonKit have OS4 in some kind of entrapment in that arrangement, but now seek to destroy OS4 by making their own clone of it? How rude!

Hyperion had practically stopped PPC AmigaOS 4 development, likely due to it not being profitable, which cut off the development of a needed product AeonKit was reliant on for their PPC hardware. Hyperion may have been interested in unloading AmigaOS 4 at this point but found a derivative profitable product in the 68k AmigaOS 3 where there is a larger profitable market. AeonKit may have felt blocked by Hyperion so decided to expand the Enhancer software into an AmigaOS replacement. While this has put pressure on Hyperion to restart development of AmigaOS 4, it has likely soured their relationship further. It looks to me like the mutiny is a response from AeonKit and Cloanto/Amiga Corporation who grew tired of Hyperion bullying, arrogance and unethical behavior. AeonKit and Amiga Corporation have common ground and could work together to cut Hyperion out of the picture once and for all, starting with a more complete AmigaOS 4 replacement than the Enhancer software. Hyperion may find themselves thrown overboard to sink still clenching their treasured AmigaOS updates they nefariously obtained in true pirate fashion.

Last edited by matthey on 03-Nov-2021 at 09:19 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 03-Nov-2021 at 09:16 PM.

@TRIPOS

@TRIPOS

Quote:

But writing an installer that copies AmigaOS components (that are not included) to MorphOS does not turn MorphOS into an Amiga distribution. An installer copying AROS components (that are not included) to MorphOS does not make MorphOS an AROS distribution.

By the same logic installing Enhancer on top of OS4 does not make OS4 an Enhancer distribution. Trevor said that you'll be able to install Enhancer v54 on top of OS4 just like all previous versions but there will be the option of an alternative installation method whereby the OS4 files sit on their own area of disk.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

@SHADES Well, no software is going to use that, but you can port assembler to C, like I’m doing. https://github.com/khval/libcopper.library https://github.com/khval/Libblitter.library https://github.com/khval/chipset.library Anyway, if anyone want to help, that be cool.

Ha! That's awesome.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Is there source code examples on how to use these lines and autodocs?

@kamelito

Sorry documentation is a bit lacking, there are some folders named asmtests, tests, tools.
etc folder, this contains some times examples.
(Other times tests folder contains checks to see if things working correct, depending on the project.)
Anyway functions declarations are available in *.xml files or in the interfaces/*.h
(for real AmigaOS4.x libraries).
*.h files are good place to look for any declaration. (in the copper project)

Depending project custom address space, is private to the library or public by reference, so not really standardized, (Etch approach has advantages and disadvantages).

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Nov-2021 at 05:47 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Nov-2021 at 05:15 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Nov-2021 at 05:09 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@All

Hypex Quote:

Even now, I can tell you that they have got it wrong. I've used those commands they redid and they don't work correctly. I've had scripts suddenly fail and found it was because Updater corrupted my system.

As a QA firmware/software engineer for over 30 years I can tell you that in this kind of environment it's almost impossible for bugs not to slip through.

I was intially against replacing existing commands as well, but after AmigaKit explaining what they are trying to accomplish while staying away from any legal issues, I can understand and appreciate the path they are taking. I don't think Hyperion will be investing much in AmigaOS4 so this seems to be pretty much the only reasonable way forward for now. AEON/AmigaKit are definatly making investments and are attempting to do some very good things to move the situation forward. That should be appreciated.


AmigaKit Quote:

Have you tried the latest updates? We are implementing commands from scratch so it is understandable their maybe initial bugs but real world testing has recently helped our devs get the commands to a level of high quality. If we have an issue reported, we investigate and fix quickly.

I can tell you from first hand experience, that if you run across issues and report them, you will more than likely get a quick response and often times be able to work directly with the developer to get to the bottom of the issues and get them resolved. The team has been quite responsive! Great work!

Let's all work together to create something better instead of complaining and speculating.

I encourage anyone who runs across any bugs to report them here:
http://www.amiga.org/developer/bugreports

Last edited by ktadd on 04-Nov-2021 at 06:14 PM.

_________________
Kevin - X1000 First Contact / uA1

ktadd Quote:

As a QA firmware/software engineer for over 30 years I can tell you that in this kind of environment it's almost impossible for bugs not to slip through.

What "kind of environment" are you talking about? Do you mean that there are so few Amiga customers left that there aren't enough bug reports to properly debug software? Do you mean that instead of a large group of beta testers finding bugs that buggy software is released for customers to find and report the bugs instead?

ktadd Quote:

I was initially against replacing existing commands as well, but after AmigaKit explaining what they are trying to accomplish while staying away from any legal issues, I can understand and appreciate the path they are taking. I don't think Hyperion will be investing much in AmigaOS4 so this seems to be pretty much the only reasonable way forward for now. AEON/AmigaKit are definatly making investments and are attempting to do some very good things to move the situation forward. That should be appreciated.

I can understand and appreciate the path AeonKit is taking for such a small market too but I highly doubt the project will be a financial success with only niche market hardware available. I know they are trying to target the 68k and PPC markets together to save development costs and improve debugging but I expect the larger market 68k Enhancer OS sales are lackluster currently. Hyperion cost cutting and nefarious tactics for 68k AmigaOS 3 development is likely difficult to compete with.

ktadd Quote:

I can tell you from first hand experience, that if you run across issues and report them, you will more than likely get a quick response and often times be able to work directly with the developer to get to the bottom of the issues and get them resolved. The team has been quite responsive! Great work!

Yes, the AeonKit OS developers have the lead in bug fixing among all the AmigaOS flavors. If there aren't enough beta testers to catch the majority of bugs then distribute the software and update it often.

ktadd Quote:

Let's all work together to create something better instead of complaining and speculating.

Let's work together to (re)create the 4th major incarnation of the AmigaOS. Maybe if we work together more we can have a 5th or 6th recreation of AmigaOS too. So much for a proprietary OS having the advantage of fewer flavors and more standardization.

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote: Trevor said that you'll be able to install Enhancer v54 on top of OS4 just like all previous versions but there will be the option of an alternative installation method whereby the OS4 files sit on their own area of disk.

Sounds like the SYS: / MOSSYS: approach. A leftover since early MorphOS development when MorphOS was being developed on top of AmigaOS. When new components were developed they were put in MOSSYS: and got priority over the AmigaOS files in SYS: (which was there as a fallback to fill the gaps). Eventually, SYS: could be empty. Also makes OS upgrades handy since you basically just drop a new drawer to SYS:MorphOS while third party files, configuration files and user settings in SYS: can be held separate (and preserved) from MorphOS system files. In an analogue situation, Redfox above could choose to use either AeonKit’s parallel “System 54” DOS commands (by doing nothing, just let “System 54” boot untouched) or Hyperion’s original OS4 DOS commands (by renaming the “System 54” ones, for example with a trailing suffix, which will make “System 54” fall back to the original Hyperion files in SYS:). Would make it easier to prevent the system from being “clobbered” by the obvious parallel development.

Last edited by TRIPOS on 05-Nov-2021 at 12:43 AM.
Last edited by TRIPOS on 05-Nov-2021 at 12:42 AM.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote: This is because they are both two separate, parallel OS development projects. AeonKit’s goal is to replace OS4. They may call it “enhancer” or “distribution” or whatever, but the goal for them is to create an OS that is separate and free from OS4 or Amiga source code and copyrights, thus its “developers are selected because they have not worked on AmigaOS source code and they have not been under any NDA by another company.” (Link)

Quote:

You (and they) obviously want to make that emotional connection despite not being based on Amiga source code, not having the official branding and not having official endorsement from neither the owner of Amiga nor the publisher of OS4, but a third party re-implementation achieving compatibility through fresh code developed from scratch is hardly unique.

Not to mention that (at least) the OS4 kernel and dos libraries are already written-from-scratch reimplementations which contain no original code.*

Perhaps they should call it ShipOfTheseOS.

(* Warning, this assertion relies on statements made by Ben Hermans.)

@TRIPOS
Quote:

Since no OS4 files (or Amiga OS files) are distributed it’s not an OS4 (or Amiga) distribution. You (and they) obviously want to make that emotional connection despite not being based on Amiga source code, not having the official branding and not having official endorsement from neither the owner of Amiga nor the publisher of OS4, but a third party re-implementation achieving compatibility through fresh code developed from scratch is hardly unique.

There is no need to make an "emotional connection". At the moment it is what it is (as I said: I have System54 here on my harddisk): System54 is an alternative way of installing Enhancer-components and its much more like a Distro (like AmiKit for example) than an OS-replacement.

There might be plans for the future regarding an alternative OS, but this is speculation at this moment. What I am testing now is clearly an Enhancer/AOS4-Distro not a new OS or OS-fork.

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@AP

I assume that even Trevor or Amikakit could not answer the question how far it will go... in any case they obviously want to become independent of Hyperion and Ben H.. I would regard something as distribution what needs something else as foundation. That is the case for Amikit and 3.5/3.9, that is the case with my distribution needing Aros 68k and that is also the case currently for "System54". If that will change someday, who knows...

@OlafS25: I see it the same way. The System54/Enhancer-Distro is (or could be) of course a baseline for further developments, even for a stand-alone-OS, but at the moment it is what it is. And I prefer to use and talk about things which are available here and now rather than speculating/dreaming about things that may be in the future.

For me it's not a bad thing to have a "clean" AOS4-installation beside an Enhancer-installation on another partition. It's the safer way to experiment with new Enhancer-components. And I have always a self-booting "rescue"-system, if my AOS4-system-partition fails to boot fore some reason.

BTW: In the new issue of Amiga Future Trevor describes Enhancer/System54. He uses the term "meta distribution" and compares it with the AmiKit-disto, too.

Last edited by AP on 05-Nov-2021 at 03:36 PM.
Last edited by AP on 05-Nov-2021 at 02:01 PM.

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@amigakit

Quote:

Update 2 is nothing to do with A-EON, it is a Hyperion update which was accumulated updates dating back to 2014.

No but both companies have some recent updates which have proven faulty in my system. Update 2 is more severe as it gives me a frozen Workbench and I gave up looking for why. Some AEON commands had faults that caused confusion when shell scripts stopped working. I think List is fixed now.

But I found Version is faulty. If you search for "MorphOS" it gives a return code of zero when it should be 20 or at least fail. This has proven havoc for a recent script I wrote that was working nicely to determine what platform was running. But I was told it treats an OS4 system as MOS. It didn't make sense as it worked fine for me then I realised I was using original components and the other system used Enhancer commands. Now I need to complicate my simple script, after I had optimised it, so it works on everything. Supporting multiple platforms in Amiga land does my head in.

Quote:

That sounds like a lot of productive work is underway. Maybe another update will be forthcoming very soon.

I'd give it a some more time. It was overdue. But rushed out for Christmas.

Quote:

A-EON owned components included in OS4 are not just drivers: Ringhio Notifications, PCIGraphics (Amigaone.card), MediaToolBox, SP Engine, PTP driver etc. Of course there are drivers such as ATIRadeon.chip owned by A-EON. RadeonHD driver is not included in OS4 and is sold separately in the Enhancer Software.

I think most end users would prefer a complete solution. The RadeonHD drivers and different offerings in the AmStore cause confusion. The OS4 scene has become too complicated.

Last edited by Hypex on 05-Nov-2021 at 03:33 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

Hyperion had practically stopped PPC AmigaOS 4 development, likely due to it not being profitable, which cut off the development of a needed product AeonKit was reliant on for their PPC hardware.

Development continued, updates were delayed, new releases on hold. It's not profitable when another company challenges them in court. This sucks money on both ends but it's good way to financially damage a competitor.

Quote:

Hyperion may have been interested in unloading AmigaOS 4 at this point but found a derivative profitable product in the 68k AmigaOS 3 where there is a larger profitable market.

Which was gracefully accepted by the Amiga community. I expected some kind of rejection since it's not Commodore and you don't need the latest firmware to play games. But it has been popular.

As a comparison, I read the MorphOS team will absolutey not support selling licenses for emulation. But Hyperion allow OS4 Classic licenses to be sold regardless of what kind of machine it will be running on. Of course, an Amiga wth a working PPC card is becoming rarer, so it make sense

Quote:

AeonKit may have felt blocked by Hyperion so decided to expand the Enhancer software into an AmigaOS replacement. While this has put pressure on Hyperion to restart development of AmigaOS 4, it has likely soured their relationship further. It looks to me like the mutiny is a response from AeonKit and Cloanto/Amiga Corporation who grew tired of Hyperion bullying, arrogance and unethical behavior. AeonKit and Amiga Corporation have common ground and could work together to cut Hyperion out of the picture once and for all, starting with a more complete AmigaOS 4 replacement than the Enhancer software. Hyperion may find themselves thrown overboard to sink still clenching their treasured AmigaOS updates they nefariously obtained in true pirate fashion.

What ever it is, OS4 still existed, which is what they built Enhancer on. But to recreate OS4 is a heap of work. In any case they need a better test suite. They need to an extensive test suite as part of the build process to test every command with a full set of tests with expected results that breaks the instant a command fails. I don't see this in place. You cannot practically release an emulator without a proper test suite for all instructions. But now they are emulating OS4 and don't have the proper infrastructure in place. 24 commands is a lot to write but they also need 24 extensive testing scripts to match. I don't see how it could be financially viable to copy an OS that lacks modern standards as well as modern hardware to run it. And the OS4 users will need to use an OS4 system that may be faulty as it has been patched with foreign components.

@Hypex

Not so hard as Morphos has demonstrated by using Aros source code, improving on them and gave them back following the license rules.

https://morphos-team.net/sources

Hypex Quote:

Development continued, updates were delayed, new releases on hold. It's not profitable when another company challenges them in court. This sucks money on both ends but it's good way to financially damage a competitor.

From what I have heard from Michele Battilana, it sounds like he accepted and respected the right of Hyperion to develop AmigaOS 4 for the PPC. I believe there would have been no lawsuits from Amiga parties had Hyperion stuck to AmigaOS 4 development for the PPC. Hyperion had a very favorable 2009 agreement after their coercion of Amiga Inc. when they were financially vulnerable but Ben Hermans was too arrogant to abide by this gift. If AmigaOS 4 for PPC was profitable, wouldn't Hyperion continue active development and marketing to help finance the lawsuits like with the 68k AmigaOS?

Hypex Quote:

Which was gracefully accepted by the Amiga community. I expected some kind of rejection since it's not Commodore and you don't need the latest firmware to play games. But it has been popular.

Many 68k Amiga users want upgrades but also want to retain better compatibility than PPC Amiga like systems offer. It didn't surprise me that the 68k AmigaOS upgrade was a success. I expect there were some potential customers like me who refused to support Hyperion on ethical grounds (I bought AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9). There isn't 68k hardware with a good performance/price ratio either. I don't think the 68k AmigaOS upgrade even scratched the surface of the potential in the 68k Amiga market.

Hypex Quote:

As a comparison, I read the MorphOS team will absolutely not support selling licenses for emulation. But Hyperion allow OS4 Classic licenses to be sold regardless of what kind of machine it will be running on. Of course, an Amiga with a working PPC card is becoming rarer, so it make sense

Emulation exhibits a lack of available hardware with a good performance/price. The problem for MorphOS on x86-64 hardware is not a lack of hardware with a good performance/price but getting people to install an alien OS on their hardware with less software, fewer drivers and more cost when other alternatives are free. I doubt they could gain much market share if they were paying users to try MorphOS and they plan on charging for it. I can see a few die hard Amiga fans buying MorphOS x86-64 but that is it.

Hypex Quote:

What ever it is, OS4 still existed, which is what they built Enhancer on. But to recreate OS4 is a heap of work. In any case they need a better test suite. They need to an extensive test suite as part of the build process to test every command with a full set of tests with expected results that breaks the instant a command fails. I don't see this in place. You cannot practically release an emulator without a proper test suite for all instructions. But now they are emulating OS4 and don't have the proper infrastructure in place. 24 commands is a lot to write but they also need 24 extensive testing scripts to match. I don't see how it could be financially viable to copy an OS that lacks modern standards as well as modern hardware to run it. And the OS4 users will need to use an OS4 system that may be faulty as it has been patched with foreign components.

A combination of a good test suite and beta testing with enough good beta testers is likely the best way to debug but this requires good developers and beta testers in adequate numbers which is likely the problem in "this kind of environment" mentioned by ktadd. It may help if AeonKit keeps the bug fixed module releases at a high pace but slows down major revisions to give more time for testing before release. It is a "heap of work" to make an AmigaOS 4 replacement from scratch especially considering Amiga Corporation has usable source code for up to AmigaOS 3.1. A lack of cooperation will lead to less standardization and more division between the Amiga flavors. Maybe Ben Hermans needs to be worked around but we have a problem if the other Amiga business entities can't communicate and work together better.

@ktadd

Quote:

As a QA firmware/software engineer for over 30 years I can tell you that in this kind of environment it's almost impossible for bugs not to slip through.

That's why, as I posted to matthey, they need a full test suite. What they are creating already exists, so they need it to act exactly the same. I easily failed one command with a basic test.

MorphDOS already acts differently to the real thing. We don't need EnhancerDOS to copy it and also do things differently as well. Both should work exactly the same as AmigaDOS is they are a drop in replacement.

Now, my proof may seem esoteric, with some shell scripts that failed. But the system uses them as well. Funny, I recently asked how Amiga developers deal with MorphDOS scripts being different to AmigaDOS, and the answer was users mostly use DOpus. Well, one answer. But it wasn't answering my question.

Quote:

I was intially against replacing existing commands as well, but after AmigaKit explaining what they are trying to accomplish while staying away from any legal issues, I can understand and appreciate the path they are taking. I don't think Hyperion will be investing much in AmigaOS4 so this seems to be pretty much the only reasonable way forward for now. AEON/AmigaKit are definatly making investments and are attempting to do some very good things to move the situation forward. That should be appreciated.

I don't see how legal issues need to come into it. The source exists and is still being maintained. This isn't like the OS3.9 debacle where they didn't have the source to updated components. Then it makes sense. I think replacing the 68K components with native ones and especially replacing IconEdit with a useable editor would be time better spent. But this still currently is separate. The users need to buy the OS4 base system and then buy the Enhancer patches on top. I don't know what happened but before FE came out OS4 used to be a complete OS on disc.