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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
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Lou 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 14:03:53
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4121
From: Rhode Island

@olsen

Quote:

olsen wrote:
@Lou

I for one would not want to be the person whose participation on AROS would expose AROS to legal challenges which so far could be avoided. This is a double-edged sword which has no hilt, just two blades...

That's what pen names are for...

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 14:54:30
#42 ]
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Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1908
From: N-Space

@Mobileconnect

Quote:
SMP is a dead end from an Amiga point of view. Better to treat the second core as a co-processor [snip]

This is a good idea. Even if the SMP implementation is completed, it's not likely that it will work very well.

Last edited by bison on 21-Oct-2021 at 02:55 PM.

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 14:57:24
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1908
From: N-Space

@Birbo

Quote:
When will the lawsuit be finally settled then? This can't take forever... or can it take forever? I wonder why it takes so long.

Covid set it back, and this is happening in America, where everyone gets their decade in court, as they say.

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number6 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 16:33:41
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@bison

It's "lawsuits" (plural) btw. Lawsuit #2 was suspended pending outcome of lawsuit #1.

Once the current one is concluded, then they have a fixed time to report, so as to know where lawsuit #2 is going. All of this assumes no appeals on either or new suits in the intervening time.

Source February 12, 2020:

Quote:
ORDER STAYING CASE: This matter is STAYED until Case No. 18-cv-381-RSM is resolved or until otherwise ordered by this Court. Upon the resolution of Case No. 18-cv-381-RSM, Plaintiffs are to file a status report in this case within fourteen (14) days. Signed by Judge Ricardo S. Martinez.


Edit: added source

#6

Last edited by number6 on 21-Oct-2021 at 04:39 PM.

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olsen 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 17:09:41
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 749
From: Germany

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@olsen

Quote:

olsen wrote:
@Lou

I for one would not want to be the person whose participation on AROS would expose AROS to legal challenges which so far could be avoided. This is a double-edged sword which has no hilt, just two blades...

That's what pen names are for...


You can't keep that kind of secrets any more. That time has passed. How you write code identifies the author. Now there's a surprise

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kolla 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 17:45:01
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1865
From: Trondheim, Norway

Is Shell-Seg 47.47 supposed to work with previous OS releases (like 3.1.4.1), or is it supposed to just crash and reboot the system with an exotic guru code? Asking for a friend.

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klx300r 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 18:14:23
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3662
From: Toronto, Canada

Quote:

Mobileconnect wrote:

SMP is a dead end from an Amiga point of view. Better to treat the second core as a co-processor and have apps written to use it to run some of their processes on that core when they need a performance boost, or have the OS put realtime critical services like the input device or the 68K JIT (the JIT, not the emulator) on the second core so it can never be blocked.


I'm liking this idea as a co-processor aka running a Linux version of Firefox via OS4.2 or 5

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 18:18:10
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11916
From: Norway

@klx300r

well maybe it will compile there,
but you have some of same problems on Linux,
none optimized JS on PowerPC :-/
and also if Linux runs in virtual bobble, then Linux wont know about AmigaOS graphic drivers.

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 18:59:25
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1908
From: N-Space

@number6

Quote:
It's "lawsuits" (plural) btw. Lawsuit #2 was suspended pending outcome of lawsuit #1.

I forgot about that!

I'm with @Birbo; will it ever end?

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kamelito 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 21:44:51
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 775
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Following the steps taken by Linux which needed Minix at first.

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Rob 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 22:09:36
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6077
From: S.Wales

@Mobileconnect

Quote:
As for buying it, apparently they want $20M for it.


I only heard that he flat out refused to sell Hyperion. I remember a figure of $20M being mentioned when DiscreetFX were talking up the idea of them buying Amiga Inc. Are you confusing the two or do you have a credible source relating to Hyperion asking for that sum.

Hyperion do own Reaction. I'm pretty sure that Ben will use that as a bargaining chip if he loses the rights to develop Amiga OS.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 22:46:35
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2050
From: Chicago, IL

@Rob

McBill told us 100 Million for AInc and that was way back around 2007. The investors never took him serious after that. We asked for a valuation of the IP and why he thought it was worth so much but nothing was provided. There were never any discussions to buy Hyperion from investors I was working with.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 21-Oct-2021 at 11:16 PM.
Last edited by DiscreetFX on 21-Oct-2021 at 10:49 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 23:19:04
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1215
From: Kansas

Mobileconnect Quote:
SMP is a dead end from an Amiga point of view. Better to treat the second core as a co-processor [snip]


bison Quote:

This is a good idea. Even if the SMP implementation is completed, it's not likely that it will work very well.


AMP can be good for specific tasks on multiple cores, especially with weak cores. Performance and latency is minimized for the specialized tasks at the expense of wasting unused performance on the cores. It is usually difficult to efficiently utilize more than one or two AMP configured cores. SMP is more efficient than AMP in a multitasking environment as more of the processing power can be used. Even without code of a single program written to take advantage of SMP, multiple programs can run on multiple cores often at nearly full performance of the core. The preemptive multitasking of the Amiga showed the world how a PC should be able to multitask and I feel like lack of SMP would limit the Amiga from reaching full modern multitasking capabilities.

SMP could work well enough on the Amiga with a future API depricating Forbid and Disable. The only question is if SMP is possible with Forbid and Disable and how much of a kludge it would be for older program compatibility. If SMP is possible with Forbid and Disable compatibility, it will be tricky to implement especially with the PPC weak memory ordering consistency model which allows reads and writes of cores to be arbitrarily reordered without memory barriers, atomics or some other multi-core locking mechanism (for example, a library could be flushed by one core before the library count is bumped by another). The cost of a Forbid or Disable is likely to be very high without custom hardware. One thing I didn't consider before was if one of the cores has already signaled or indicated a Forbid or Disable state which needs to be checked for before starting a new one and this may not happen in sequential order by time due to reordering of reads and writes of the cores. Perhaps gaining exclusive access to a Forbid/Disable queue in memory which would then be checked if it was empty before initiating a new Forbid or Disable state would work. Forbid and Permit will be very tricky and expensive to implement. Debugging is another hurdle due to the poor readability of PPC assembly code as can be seen by Steven asking for low level PPC help at AmiWest. I expect SMP with Forbid and Disable compatibility would be easier to implement in 68k cores in a big FPGA but that is not where the research is because it would be too expensive without an ASIC. Then again, the Apollo core used AMP multi-threading instead of implementing SMP although likely because it was easier.

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matthey 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 23:42:01
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1215
From: Kansas

DiscreetFX Quote:

McBill told us 100 Million for AInc and that was way back around 2007. The investors never took him serious after that. We asked for a valuation of the IP and why he thought it was worth so much but nothing was provided. There were never any discussions to buy Hyperion from investors I was working with.


Credit Michele Battilana for continuing to negotiate with Amiga Inc. long after they became a zombie. If McBill would have been smart he would have called DiscreetFX and anyone else who made buyout offers when negotiating with Michele and tried to start a bidding war. McBill certainly didn't deserve a golden parachute if he received any proceeds from the buyout. I expect Michele bought Amiga Inc. for a song and likely negotiated their tax debts to a fraction of what they were. I would have thought Ben would have had more respect for Michele after that bold and strategic move. Ben is the definition of arrogance which comes before a fall. Good luck can't always be counted on when rolling the dice over and over again.

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mbrantley 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 3:00:57
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jun-2010
Posts: 547
From: Mobile, Alabama, United States

I like the coprocessor idea for cores beyond the first one. Sounds like anything else will break compatibility with software that will never be rewritten. What I would like to see for my two X1000 computers one day is for the second core to be used in some fashion some of the time, even if it's only useful for specially written new software and not the old stuff. But I insist on keeping as much of the old stuff working as we can.

Getting proper video acceleration on my X1000s will be the thing to bring me more joy in near future if it can/will be done. That's what will make a difference for me. What will get me to spend a few more bucks on this crazy enterprise in the short term will be if video acceleration for 1080 or better video playback happens either for my Southern Islands cards (R9 270 in each machine) or I get the ability to use RX cards in my X1000s. But I really don't want to also have to buy RX cards in addition to new software, so hoping the Southern Islands support comes. Those cards should be plenty capable for it, and I have bought a whole series of GPU cards chasing these Amiga drivers, and I'd like to get off that costly train if possible. Heh.

Otherwise, am tired of the lawsuits and the backstabbing and the absurd secretive NDA culture that is just bullcrap stupid stuff. It serves nobody who is not trying to screw over somebody else. For the amount of money at stake by anyone here, I just don't see how it's worth the headaches for them, but guess that is for them to worry about. Meanwhile, I'll use what's available if it's fun, and I'll buy software if it seems like it will be fun to own and won't break the bank. With two X1000s in the house bought from days gone by when I had more money and when there seemed to be more promise in this stuff, I won't be buying more OS4 hardware no matter what. I'm a OS4 software customer only from here on out, if there is software available that is affordable, useful and fun.

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klx300r 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 3:24:16
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3662
From: Toronto, Canada

@mbrantley

If you sell one of your X1000's that should leave you with some nice pocket change for all kinds of Amiga software or at least one Cyberstorm PPC/MK3 board nowadays

btw, with all the latest updates/ Enhancer file over writes etc. please let me know if you can still run Lightwave fine on your X1000? I tried and tried and tried but could never get the render screen to work on my X1000 sadly

Last edited by klx300r on 22-Oct-2021 at 03:26 AM.

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mbrantley 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 4:52:39
#57 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jun-2010
Posts: 547
From: Mobile, Alabama, United States

@klx300r

Yes, I can still render with LW. Maybe I can try to help you troubleshoot one day. I have OS4.1 FE Update 2 and SOME of the Enhancer 1 stuff (like TuneNet). Haven't bought Enhancer 2 and won't until I can use the new video acceleration features of the new included driver on an X1000. And I do not believe in overwriting the OS files with alternatives with the same name so taking very careful steps to avoid doing that. They don't make it easy.

EDIT: After further testing, one X1000 renders and the other doesn't, so obviously a configuration problem with one. I'll follow up in PM with you later since this is off topic to the thread. END EDIT

Not really needing to sell a computer to buy software, just need more interesting software to buy. :) If I sell, it's gonna be to get out of OS4 completely. Put some feelers out, but guess my price is too high. :) So I will keep. Call me crazy, but I have two of a lot things. Paranoid about needing backups of things that are difficult or impossible to replace.

Meantime, I am also THOUROUGHLY enjoying my Vampire accelerator and plan to buy into the V4 range pretty soon. But that's a topic for another thread, I suppose.

Last edited by mbrantley on 22-Oct-2021 at 08:59 PM.
Last edited by mbrantley on 22-Oct-2021 at 05:09 AM.
Last edited by mbrantley on 22-Oct-2021 at 05:09 AM.

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Birbo 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 5:40:54
#58 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 588
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@DiscreetFX

I guess we have the same situation with OS4.

If Ben Hermans really asks 20 million $ for OS4, no one will take hime seriously.

Not even for 1 million $...


BTW: Does anyone know, if this is really what he wants for OS4? 20 million $? Or is it just a rumor?

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kamelito 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 6:04:33
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 775
From: Unknown

@matthey

They should do both AMP and SMP you could boot on AMP kernel for compatibility while SMP could be used so current programs could be recompiled to use this kernel and overcome incompatibilities. Binaries only programs could be patched on a priority basis (most wanted programs), like whdload hackers do it for games.

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OlafS25 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 22-Oct-2021 10:04:15
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5936
From: Unknown

@Birbo

never read about 20 mio.

but it is fair to assume that enhancer project in this form would not exist if there would have been a chance to buy amigaos at a justifyable price

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