@kolla

The previous generation of iPhones ...

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: Above A1200's price range, A4000 wasn't price competitive when compared to Apple's Macintosh Quadra 605 (668LC040 CPU @ 25 Mhz based, entry price of $1000 USD)) and PC clones 486SX-25 and 486SX-33.

Why yes. I loved the Amiga, but as soon as I could get a Qaudra 605 (with no FPU, no card slots, closed architecture, bloated cooperative 'multitasking' OS etc.) a little cheaper I dumped my A3000 and became a Mac fan... not!

Quote:

Meanwhile, SNES attacked the lower-priced gaming market segment that is near the A1200's price range. SNES has superior developer relations and 1st party game titles.

Why yes. Despite having zero computer functions, being locked into titles that Nintendo approved of, and having to pay for expensive new hardware every time I wanted a new game, I'd have bought an SNES instead of A1200 if it was anywhere near the price... not!

Quote:

For the EU market, both SNES and A1200 were released in 1992. Commodore missed the 1992 Q4 Xmas sales period with relatively low A1200 production numbers.

This is true, Commodore couldn't make enough A1200s to meet demand. That's why I bought a SNES instead... not!

Quote:

Commodore could have pre-configured "out-of-the-box" A1200 with 68LC040 at 25Mhz SKU for slightly above $779 (i.e. add 4MB fast ram, HDD) which could compete against $1000 486 33Mhz based PC and Apple's Macintosh Quadra 605.

There's no way Commodore could have done it for that price in 1992. But they didn't need to. The Quadra 605 was introduced in October 1993, and discontinued exactly 1 year later in October 1994. By 1995 Phase 5 was making A1200 accelerator cards using 68040's recycled from old Macs.

At this time Apple was heading for bankruptcy. According to Steve Jobs - who saved the company in 1997 - the reason for their decline was that they had too many models, which were often priced wrong and aimed at the wrong markets.

Quote:

VideoToaster with A4000 is a tiny market niche. Social media video streaming didn't exist in 1993.

True. And since there was no other reason to have an A4000...

Seriously. Commodore could have sold the A4000 for $1 and it would still only have a niche market. It didn't matter what the price was, it still couldn't run Doom or Super Mario.

The way for Commodore to survive was not to try to compete against the Mac (which itself was in decline) or the PC, but to cultivate the niche market it excelled in. But we should remember that Commodore only existed for one purpose - to make money for its investors. That we got a unique computer platform with several wonderful models, lots of amazing hardware addons and a huge software collection that is keeping fans interested 25 years later was just a bonus.

But what was the most cherished thing that Commodore gave us? Why yes, the ability to bitch and moan about how if only they had done this or that the Amiga would now be ruling the World!

@bhabbott

Quote:

But what was the most cherished thing that Commodore gave us? Why yes, the ability to bitch and moan about how if only they had done this or that the Amiga would now be ruling the World!

We should really be moaning about Motorola not having the 68000 ready in time to be selected as the CPU for the IBM PC.

@bhabbott

Last edited by pixie on 05-Feb-2023 at 08:55 AM.
Last edited by pixie on 05-Feb-2023 at 08:55 AM.

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels.
graphics cards for amiga before ppc was too expensive.
a4000 was nice but has too slow builtin graphics.

@ppcamiga1 wrote:
Quote:

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels. graphics cards for amiga before ppc was too expensive. a4000 was nice but has too slow builtin graphics.

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Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@bhabbott

You not only perfectly explained the historical situation surrounding the release of the A1200 but summed up what these forums have become! You also explain how the Amiga and everything we love about it didn't even register with Commodore and the machine was just a widget subservient to the CEO and the share holders! No wonder they failed to invest in R&D to grow the ecosystem! Newtek invented a niche FOR C= and C= STILL blew it with the A3000 with too small expansion bays to fit the A2000 Toaster! Ridiculous!

But no, the SNES and the Mac Quadras weren't made to measure replacements for the A1200. The home computer market was pretty much C=s to screw up and they revelled in the opportunity!

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@pixie

outside Amiga asylum it is obvious that Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixel.

@ppcamiga1

No, C= were only interested in emulating the success of the C64. They failed to market the A1000 because they didn't understand it! They thought an A300 would sell C64 numbers but they made it MORE expensive not less than the A500 and rebadged it as an A600. They wanted to sell A600s for Christmas '92 not A1200s! The supply chain was messed up because production was moved to the Philippines! Many many issues and not just AGA! They actually would have preferred to sell OCS/ECS until the Amiga was dead and then sell PCs! But that wasn't going to work either!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

But no, the SNES and the Mac Quadras weren't made to measure replacements for the A1200. The home computer market was pretty much C=s to screw up and they revelled in the opportunity!

One should consider the fact that a large portion of Amigas were used as game consoles most of the time, some exclusively. For that market, SNES was a very serious competitor. And cheaper Apple systems were definatively competitors to big box Amigas in the early 90s.

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@WolfToTheMoon

The games definitely weren't cheaper, Deluxe Paint beat Mario Paint and you couldn't do your homework on a SNES! Not the same market.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

No, C= were only interested in emulating the success of the C64.

Absolutely.
Most companies struggle to have a second act. Many never do.
Commodore, it would appear, thought the best second act would be an encore of their first act. Like those sad former prom queens, Commodore peaked in high school, and could never really hack it in the real world.

It is correct that with the Amiga acquisition they were hoping to get it down to C64 pricing and volumes. So singularly focused on this idea that they completely missed the valuable fact that they had created a creative community around a legitimate personal computing platform.
Widely credited for creating the keyboard+mouse gaming scene, desktop multi-media, and desktop video and 3D industries, meant nothing because they were not moving C64 volumes.
In all their feverish peddling, they also never saw the world change around them, until it was too late.

The younger and less experienced me would wonder if the Amiga would’ve been better off with Atari. But knowing what I know now, that too would have ended tragically.
The Amiga of the mid-to-late ‘80s, like most bespoke designs, had a built-in expiration date. Without some serious funding and pivoting, as @WolfToTheMoon has highlighted, the Amiga as we knew it was never going the survive long term.

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All the way, with 68k

@BigD

Most annoying thing in AGA was 8 bit color made as bitplanes.
From first day when I have to use it I always dream of graphics card in Amiga.
Of course commodore screw up many things but lack of chunky pixel was the worst
and main reason why they bankrupt.

@ppcamiga1

No, because you and many others still bought it and if they needed a graphics card bought that on top. C= aimed for volume sales hence the A300 idea. That was never going to have ANY new tech! Still 68000, still ECS! AGA was an afterthought never mind chunky pixels. R&D and marketing were starved while cost reduction extended to Amiga engineers and features like the A3000 DSP!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@ppcamiga1

A1200 wasn't available in enough numbers for Christmas 1992 mainly because C= was not investing on MOS/CSG so needed HP to manufacture custom chips with long lead times! The same issue occurred with the CD32 a year later! They didn't learn! Corruption was creeping in with the Philippines manufacturing plant decided on partly so that a high up manager could see his mistress more regularly despite the distance from Europe and again long lead times!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@ppcamiga1

In C='s collective mindset those that hadn't bought an A500 were meant to buy an A600 for Christmas 92! They could have prioritised the marketing and manufacture of the A1200 but didn't! They obviously didn't really believe in updating their tech other than for the next major new widget down the line!

Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2023 at 11:01 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2023 at 11:00 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @BigD Most annoying thing in AGA was 8 bit color made as bitplanes. From first day when I have to use it I always dream of graphics card in Amiga.

When you HAVE TO use it?
Did someone force you to use it?

I know in poor countries like UK and Australia we could not afford the amazing 386 PC with VGA chunky graphics in late ‘92/early ‘93, but you didn’t have that problem (great success). You didn’t HAVE TO use AGA, you could just use your more amazing and cheaper VGA PC.

Quote:

Of course commodore screw up many things but lack of chunky pixel was the worst and main reason why they bankrupt.

If I recall correctly, this was the scene when Commodore announced that AGA would continue to use bitplanes instead of chunky graphics. The Amiga gaming community was very angry.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami

yes, rest of world switch win 3.1 and use at least 256 colors,
so I have to use it too.
AGA should have chunky pixel.
Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixel.

@ppcamiga1

What, some windows user came and held a gun your head and demanded you run your workbench in 256 colours dblpal did they?

You really are a total lemon.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@bhabbott

Quote:

Why yes. Despite having zero computer functions, being locked into titles that Nintendo approved of, and having to pay for expensive new hardware every time I wanted a new game, I'd have bought an SNES instead of A1200 if it was anywhere near the price... not!

1, the vast majority of Amigas were sold as game consoles with a keyboard that could do a little computer on the side.

2, SNES had VASTLY better games than the basic amiga.

No one bought the SNES to use as a computer. They bought it to play games.
Almost no one bought an A500 or A1200 to use as a computer. They bought it to play games.
SNES games >> Amiga 500/1200 games and market did what market does and declares a winner and a loser.