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RobertB 
Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 26-Mar-2022 18:04:36
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Jun-2006
Posts: 1315
From: Visalia, California

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/retro-computing-museum-in-ukraine-destroyed-by-russian-bomb/

Commodores, Amigas, and others destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
June 25-26 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2022 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class

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newlight 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 26-Mar-2022 19:58:19
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Sep-2007
Posts: 1901
From: Somewhere in Spain

@RobertB

Sad news.

I love Ukrainian people and country too.

All the best for Russian people.

Is a pity to loose all those computer and consoles but I love Ukrainian and specially Russian people not Putin in fact I believe.

Long live the Amiga in Ukraine too!!!

And all over the world.

_________________
AMIGA 500 1.5 MB ACA500/ACA1232 accelerators
AMIGA 500 German
CD32 unexpanded
Amiga 1200 Tower on AmigaKit since years
AMIGA 1300 030/50 Mhz/32 MB WB 3.9 with lots of games&demos
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BigD 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 26-Mar-2022 20:44:52
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6480
From: UK

@RobertB

What a waste! How many Russian Generals are dead? How many Russian conscripted teenagers lie dead on foreign soil with no funerals and how many Ukrainian cities lie ruined with Russian troops bombing civilian survivors!

And now this. Oh that the Russian equivalent museum had been smashed but then again all they gave the world computer wise was the Dendy console; a cheap knock off NES console! Their government sucks and now they've legalised piracy to get around the embargo on selling Russia Western games and technology! Rise up Russians and reclaim your democracy from Putin the dictator.

Edit: The Russians can't even lay claim to the Dendy as it was manufactured in "Taiwan from Chinese components"! I guess their crowning achievement is Metro: Dying Light. That's quite fitting since the armageddon backdrop of people huddling together in the underground is what they're now inflicting on the Ukraine!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Mar-2022 at 09:30 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-Mar-2022 at 09:29 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 27-Mar-2022 0:10:20
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Chicago, IL

@RobertB

Very bad news, at least no one was hurt.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 27-Mar-2022 2:54:52
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 959
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

It's time to deploy the Fresno Commodore User Group on the battleground.

TRULY.



/mega

_________________
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--
CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

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pavlor 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 27-Mar-2022 9:11:15
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9373
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:
all they gave the world computer wise was the Dendy console


What about Tetris?


Instead of waging a war of aggression, playing this game would be a far better use of time.

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BigD 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 27-Mar-2022 9:23:21
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6480
From: UK

@pavlor

They're too busy destroying structures now. Something like Rampage: World Tour is probably Putin's favourite game; destroying cities around the world one by one until they're rubble!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 27-Mar-2022 14:00:46
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2814
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

The conflict in the Ukraine is tragic, but the destruction here was of things. No matter how rare or irreplaceable, they are nothing compared to the loss of a single life or the displacement of a family.

On that note, a much bigger tragedy of the conflict is the sickening hypocrisy and complete diversion of the world's attention from every other conflict in which people are displaced, killed and indiscriminately harmed.

European governments were quick to open their doors for Ukrainian refugees. Even the pariah state ****hole I have to call come that has actively been pursuing a "hostile" policy towards anyone desperate enough to risk their lives drowning in the channel to get here has asked people to "adopt" displaced ukrainian families.

What about the desperate families escaping conflict and oppression in Syria? Yemen? Palestine? Libya? Unfortunately out government, and many others in the west appear to have a Dulux chart of skin tone to check against when deciding whether or not someone is worthy of this humanity.

When Russia took Crimea condemnation was quick. Where was the condemnation when Trump said the world should recognise Israeli ownership of the Golan Heights? How is this different? If you can take it by force, it's yours. But only for western governments and their allies, apparently.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

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QBit 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 27-Mar-2022 15:28:18
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 217
From: Unknown

@RobertB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd0tUloMTVk&lc=z22pzpaa0qnhit1k1acdp435pl5n2erwx5oodhnm5ntw03c010c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI9JgYJPn9Y&list=RDMM&start_radio=1&rv=zxjvNUNXhkU

Last edited by QBit on 27-Mar-2022 at 03:51 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 5:38:51
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1603
From: Kansas

Karlos Quote:

The conflict in the Ukraine is tragic, but the destruction here was of things. No matter how rare or irreplaceable, they are nothing compared to the loss of a single life or the displacement of a family.

On that note, a much bigger tragedy of the conflict is the sickening hypocrisy and complete diversion of the world's attention from every other conflict in which people are displaced, killed and indiscriminately harmed.

European governments were quick to open their doors for Ukrainian refugees. Even the pariah state ****hole I have to call come that has actively been pursuing a "hostile" policy towards anyone desperate enough to risk their lives drowning in the channel to get here has asked people to "adopt" displaced ukrainian families.

What about the desperate families escaping conflict and oppression in Syria? Yemen? Palestine? Libya? Unfortunately out government, and many others in the west appear to have a Dulux chart of skin tone to check against when deciding whether or not someone is worthy of this humanity.


Ukraine has been a U.S. Democrat party pet nation building project since at least the Euromaidan demonstrations forced out the Russian puppet leader who fled to Russia. It looks like the U.S. chose the Ukrainian leader after Euromaidan according to a leaked or hacked phone conversation with Victoria Nuland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Click here for pic with captions of the 3 Ukrainian leaders Nuland picked from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland#/media/File:Secretary_Kerry_Meets_With_Ukrainian_Opposition_Leaders_in_Munich_(12253362394).jpg

The caption reads, "John Kerry and Victoria Nuland with Ukrainian opposition leaders Poroshenko, Yatsenyuk and Klitschko, Munich, February 1, 2014." That is Jen Psaki in the pic too. Joe Biden wasn't there but he was the lead in Ukraine as V.P. under Obama. Both Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, and John Kerry's son, Devon Archer, were directors for the shady Ukrainian energy company Burisma, one of the recipients of aide from the U.S. for increased energy production. The big happy family is back in business under the current administration and Ukraine is important because of how many billions of dollars the U.S. has invested in it, with transparency lacking and plenty of corruption I might add. My point is, the current war in Ukraine and support for the Ukrainians may be more politically motivated, perhaps with dirty corrupt politics, than racially motivated. The risk that the war could escalate into WWIII and the fact that Russia has enough nuclear weapons to potentially cause a nuclear winter makes it more interesting than most wars. The apparent return of Russia to steal and destroy more of a non-threatening nation makes it much easier to choose sides against the aggressive bully unjustly targeting civilians. The economic impact is already global with some commodities more than double what they were a couple of years ago. The scale and global impact of the Ukraine war surpasses other current wars especially considering that is has only been going on about a month.

Karlos Quote:

When Russia took Crimea condemnation was quick. Where was the condemnation when Trump said the world should recognise Israeli ownership of the Golan Heights? How is this different? If you can take it by force, it's yours. But only for western governments and their allies, apparently.


Ukrainian Crimea was not threatening Russia before Russia annexed it. Ukraine had an amicable deal with Russia allowing a Russian military base in Crimea. In contrast, Syria tried to wipe out the Jewish race before Israel annexed the Golan Heights. Syria attacked Israel at its inception in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War when Israel didn't even have a professional military but Syria, Egypt, (Trans)Jordan, Iraq and Palestinian forces attacked them. Israel was shelled by artillery from the Golan Heights up to and including the 1967 Six Day War. Israel chose a preemptive air strike against Egypt as the larger Arab nations were planning to attack. Israel invaded the Golan Heights but were attacked by Syria first again. They decided to keep the Golan Heights this time which gave them a buffer zone to survive the 1973 Yom Kippur War when Syria attacked again with 28,000 Syrian troops, 800 tanks and 600 artillery pieces vs the initial Israel 3,000 troops, 180 tanks and 60 artillery pieces. Israel may not exist without the Golan Heights as a buffer zone. The Syrians still didn't learn their lesson but have allied with Iran proxy Hezbollah terrorists who still attack Israel to this day, albeit doing much less damage due to Israel possessing the Golan Heights. Hezbollah has some 100,000-150,000 missiles and rockets pointed at Israel but fortunately they aren't above Israel on the Golan Heights. Israel has negotiated the return of captured lands in return for peace several times and returned Egyptian land when they agreed to peace but a good example of the Syrian ego is the Khartoum Resolution after the Yom Kippur War which stated three nos of, "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it." There were only about 100,000 Syrians that fled the Golan Heights with about 7,000 remaining. The Golan Heights was historically under Jewish control at times and the borders have changed several times. The Golan Heights city of Gamla was destroyed by the Romans after a large battle on the way to destroying Jerusalem and the 2nd temple so some Israelites say, "Gamla will not fall again" in symbolic reference to losing the Golan Heights. There were few Jews living in the Golan Heights at the time it was captured but this likely had to due with anti-Jewish racism toward settling there by the Arab Syrians and the Ottoman Turks before them despite the low population.

Sorry, your comparison was very poor. Israel has a right to defend themselves. They probably could be better about human rights and freedom but it is important to realize there is a certain percentage of Arabs that are actively and perpetually trying to commit terrorist acts and destroy them. Also, they treat Arabs better than many Arabs would treat them which is to exterminate them. Two border police were shot and killed in one incident and 4 civilians killed in a stabbing attack in the last few days which usually doesn't even make the news in other countries but is big news in Israel with such a small population. I like to read the English Times of Israel for news. It seems less biased than most U.S. news and gives a different perspective of events including editorials which sometimes criticize the Israeli government.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/

Be careful of anti-Israel propaganda from the racists who hate them and seek to destroy them. The hatred for such a small group is illogical yet it resurfaces time and time again. I wish everyone could live together in peace but there is real evil in the world.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 5:53:40
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 959
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

m̶a̶t̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ w̶r̶o̶t̶e̶:̶ K̶a̶r̶l̶o̶s̶ [̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶ T̶h̶e̶ c̶o̶n̶f̶l̶i̶c̶t̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ i̶s̶ t̶r̶a̶g̶i̶c̶, b̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶u̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ h̶e̶r̶e̶ w̶a̶s̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶. N̶o̶ m̶a̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ h̶o̶w̶ r̶a̶r̶e̶ o̶r̶ i̶r̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶a̶b̶l̶e̶, t̶h̶e̶y̶ a̶r̶e̶ n̶o̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶e̶d̶ t̶o̶ t̶h̶e̶ l̶o̶s̶s̶ o̶f̶ a̶ s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ l̶i̶f̶e̶ o̶r̶ t̶h̶e̶ d̶i̶s̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ o̶f̶ a̶ f̶a̶m̶i̶l̶y̶. O̶n̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ n̶o̶t̶e̶, a̶ m̶u̶c̶h̶ b̶i̶g̶g̶e̶r̶ t̶r̶a̶g̶e̶d̶y̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ c̶o̶n̶f̶l̶i̶c̶t̶ i̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ s̶i̶c̶k̶e̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ h̶y̶p̶o̶c̶r̶i̶s̶y̶ a̶n̶d̶ c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶e̶t̶e̶ d̶i̶v̶e̶r̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ w̶o̶r̶l̶d̶'s̶ a̶t̶t̶e̶n̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ f̶r̶o̶m̶ e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ c̶o̶n̶f̶l̶i̶c̶t̶ i̶n̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ a̶r̶e̶ d̶i̶s̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶, k̶i̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ a̶n̶d̶ i̶n̶d̶i̶s̶c̶r̶i̶m̶i̶n̶a̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ h̶a̶r̶m̶e̶d̶. E̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶a̶n̶ g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ w̶e̶r̶e̶ q̶u̶i̶c̶k̶ t̶o̶ o̶p̶e̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ d̶o̶o̶r̶s̶ f̶o̶r̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ r̶e̶f̶u̶g̶e̶e̶s̶. E̶v̶e̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ p̶a̶r̶i̶a̶h̶ s̶t̶a̶t̶e̶ *̶*̶*̶*̶h̶o̶l̶e̶ I̶ h̶a̶v̶e̶ t̶o̶ c̶a̶l̶l̶ c̶o̶m̶e̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ h̶a̶s̶ a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶l̶y̶ b̶e̶e̶n̶ p̶u̶r̶s̶u̶i̶n̶g̶ a̶ "h̶o̶s̶t̶i̶l̶e̶" p̶o̶l̶i̶c̶y̶ t̶o̶w̶a̶r̶d̶s̶ a̶n̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ d̶e̶s̶p̶e̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ e̶n̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ t̶o̶ r̶i̶s̶k̶ t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ l̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ d̶r̶o̶w̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ c̶h̶a̶n̶n̶e̶l̶ t̶o̶ g̶e̶t̶ h̶e̶r̶e̶ h̶a̶s̶ a̶s̶k̶e̶d̶ p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ t̶o̶ "a̶d̶o̶p̶t̶" d̶i̶s̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ u̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ f̶a̶m̶i̶l̶i̶e̶s̶. W̶h̶a̶t̶ a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ d̶e̶s̶p̶e̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ f̶a̶m̶i̶l̶i̶e̶s̶ e̶s̶c̶a̶p̶i̶n̶g̶ c̶o̶n̶f̶l̶i̶c̶t̶ a̶n̶d̶ o̶p̶p̶r̶e̶s̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ i̶n̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶?̶ Y̶e̶m̶e̶n̶?̶ P̶a̶l̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶e̶?̶ L̶i̶b̶y̶a̶?̶ U̶n̶f̶o̶r̶t̶u̶n̶a̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ o̶u̶t̶ g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶, a̶n̶d̶ m̶a̶n̶y̶ o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ w̶e̶s̶t̶ a̶p̶p̶e̶a̶r̶ t̶o̶ h̶a̶v̶e̶ a̶ D̶u̶l̶u̶x̶ c̶h̶a̶r̶t̶ o̶f̶ s̶k̶i̶n̶ t̶o̶n̶e̶ t̶o̶ c̶h̶e̶c̶k̶ a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶s̶t̶ w̶h̶e̶n̶ d̶e̶c̶i̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ w̶h̶e̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ o̶r̶ n̶o̶t̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶o̶n̶e̶ i̶s̶ w̶o̶r̶t̶h̶y̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶i̶s̶ h̶u̶m̶a̶n̶i̶t̶y̶. [̶/q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ h̶a̶s̶ b̶e̶e̶n̶ a̶ U̶.S̶. D̶e̶m̶o̶c̶r̶a̶t̶ p̶a̶r̶t̶y̶ p̶e̶t̶ n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ b̶u̶i̶l̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ p̶r̶o̶j̶e̶c̶t̶ s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ a̶t̶ l̶e̶a̶s̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ E̶u̶r̶o̶m̶a̶i̶d̶a̶n̶ d̶e̶m̶o̶n̶s̶t̶r̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶d̶ o̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶n̶ p̶u̶p̶p̶e̶t̶ l̶e̶a̶d̶e̶r̶ w̶h̶o̶ f̶l̶e̶d̶ t̶o̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶. I̶t̶ l̶o̶o̶k̶s̶ l̶i̶k̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ U̶.S̶. c̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ l̶e̶a̶d̶e̶r̶ a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ E̶u̶r̶o̶m̶a̶i̶d̶a̶n̶ a̶c̶c̶o̶r̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶o̶ a̶ l̶e̶a̶k̶e̶d̶ o̶r̶ h̶a̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ p̶h̶o̶n̶e̶ c̶o̶n̶v̶e̶r̶s̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ V̶i̶c̶t̶o̶r̶i̶a̶ N̶u̶l̶a̶n̶d̶. h̶t̶t̶p̶s̶:̶//e̶n̶.w̶i̶k̶i̶p̶e̶d̶i̶a̶.o̶r̶g̶/w̶i̶k̶i̶/V̶i̶c̶t̶o̶r̶i̶a̶_̶N̶u̶l̶a̶n̶d̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ c̶r̶i̶s̶i̶s̶:̶ T̶r̶a̶n̶s̶c̶r̶i̶p̶t̶ o̶f̶ l̶e̶a̶k̶e̶d̶ N̶u̶l̶a̶n̶d̶-̶P̶y̶a̶t̶t̶ c̶a̶l̶l̶ h̶t̶t̶p̶s̶:̶//w̶w̶w̶.b̶b̶c̶.c̶o̶m̶/n̶e̶w̶s̶/w̶o̶r̶l̶d̶-̶e̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶-̶2̶6̶0̶7̶9̶9̶5̶7̶ C̶l̶i̶c̶k̶ h̶e̶r̶e̶ f̶o̶r̶ p̶i̶c̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ c̶a̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ 3̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ l̶e̶a̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ N̶u̶l̶a̶n̶d̶ p̶i̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ f̶r̶o̶m̶ h̶t̶t̶p̶s̶:̶//e̶n̶.w̶i̶k̶i̶p̶e̶d̶i̶a̶.o̶r̶g̶/w̶i̶k̶i̶/V̶i̶c̶t̶o̶r̶i̶a̶_̶N̶u̶l̶a̶n̶d̶#̶/m̶e̶d̶i̶a̶/F̶i̶l̶e̶:̶S̶e̶c̶r̶e̶t̶a̶r̶y̶_̶K̶e̶r̶r̶y̶_̶M̶e̶e̶t̶s̶_̶W̶i̶t̶h̶_̶U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶_̶O̶p̶p̶o̶s̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶_̶L̶e̶a̶d̶e̶r̶s̶_̶i̶n̶_̶M̶u̶n̶i̶c̶h̶_̶(̶1̶2̶2̶5̶3̶3̶6̶2̶3̶9̶4̶)̶.j̶p̶g̶ T̶h̶e̶ c̶a̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ r̶e̶a̶d̶s̶, "J̶o̶h̶n̶ K̶e̶r̶r̶y̶ a̶n̶d̶ V̶i̶c̶t̶o̶r̶i̶a̶ N̶u̶l̶a̶n̶d̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ o̶p̶p̶o̶s̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ l̶e̶a̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ P̶o̶r̶o̶s̶h̶e̶n̶k̶o̶, Y̶a̶t̶s̶e̶n̶y̶u̶k̶ a̶n̶d̶ K̶l̶i̶t̶s̶c̶h̶k̶o̶, M̶u̶n̶i̶c̶h̶, F̶e̶b̶r̶u̶a̶r̶y̶ 1̶, 2̶0̶1̶4̶." T̶h̶a̶t̶ i̶s̶ J̶e̶n̶ P̶s̶a̶k̶i̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ p̶i̶c̶ t̶o̶o̶. J̶o̶e̶ B̶i̶d̶e̶n̶ w̶a̶s̶n̶'t̶ t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ b̶u̶t̶ h̶e̶ w̶a̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ l̶e̶a̶d̶ i̶n̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ a̶s̶ V̶.P̶. u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ O̶b̶a̶m̶a̶. B̶o̶t̶h̶ J̶o̶e̶ B̶i̶d̶e̶n̶'s̶ s̶o̶n̶, H̶u̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ B̶i̶d̶e̶n̶, a̶n̶d̶ J̶o̶h̶n̶ K̶e̶r̶r̶y̶'s̶ s̶o̶n̶, D̶e̶v̶o̶n̶ A̶r̶c̶h̶e̶r̶, w̶e̶r̶e̶ d̶i̶r̶e̶c̶t̶o̶r̶s̶ f̶o̶r̶ t̶h̶e̶ s̶h̶a̶d̶y̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ e̶n̶e̶r̶g̶y̶ c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶n̶y̶ B̶u̶r̶i̶s̶m̶a̶, o̶n̶e̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ r̶e̶c̶i̶p̶i̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ o̶f̶ a̶i̶d̶e̶ f̶r̶o̶m̶ t̶h̶e̶ U̶.S̶. f̶o̶r̶ i̶n̶c̶r̶e̶a̶s̶e̶d̶ e̶n̶e̶r̶g̶y̶ p̶r̶o̶d̶u̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶. T̶h̶e̶ b̶i̶g̶ h̶a̶p̶p̶y̶ f̶a̶m̶i̶l̶y̶ i̶s̶ b̶a̶c̶k̶ i̶n̶ b̶u̶s̶i̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ t̶h̶e̶ c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ a̶d̶m̶i̶n̶i̶s̶t̶r̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ a̶n̶d̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ i̶s̶ i̶m̶p̶o̶r̶t̶a̶n̶t̶ b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ o̶f̶ h̶o̶w̶ m̶a̶n̶y̶ b̶i̶l̶l̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ o̶f̶ d̶o̶l̶l̶a̶r̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ U̶.S̶. h̶a̶s̶ i̶n̶v̶e̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ i̶n̶ i̶t̶, w̶i̶t̶h̶ t̶r̶a̶n̶s̶p̶a̶r̶e̶n̶c̶y̶ l̶a̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ a̶n̶d̶ p̶l̶e̶n̶t̶y̶ o̶f̶ c̶o̶r̶r̶u̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ I̶ m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ a̶d̶d̶. M̶y̶ p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ i̶s̶, t̶h̶e̶ c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ w̶a̶r̶ i̶n̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ a̶n̶d̶ s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶r̶t̶ f̶o̶r̶ t̶h̶e̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶s̶ m̶a̶y̶ b̶e̶ m̶o̶r̶e̶ p̶o̶l̶i̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ m̶o̶t̶i̶v̶a̶t̶e̶d̶, p̶e̶r̶h̶a̶p̶s̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ d̶i̶r̶t̶y̶ c̶o̶r̶r̶u̶p̶t̶ p̶o̶l̶i̶t̶i̶c̶s̶, t̶h̶a̶n̶ r̶a̶c̶i̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ m̶o̶t̶i̶v̶a̶t̶e̶d̶. T̶h̶e̶ r̶i̶s̶k̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ w̶a̶r̶ c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ e̶s̶c̶a̶l̶a̶t̶e̶ i̶n̶t̶o̶ W̶W̶I̶I̶I̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ f̶a̶c̶t̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶ h̶a̶s̶ e̶n̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ n̶u̶c̶l̶e̶a̶r̶ w̶e̶a̶p̶o̶n̶s̶ t̶o̶ p̶o̶t̶e̶n̶t̶i̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ a̶ n̶u̶c̶l̶e̶a̶r̶ w̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ m̶a̶k̶e̶s̶ i̶t̶ m̶o̶r̶e̶ i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶h̶a̶n̶ m̶o̶s̶t̶ w̶a̶r̶s̶. T̶h̶e̶ a̶p̶p̶a̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ r̶e̶t̶u̶r̶n̶ o̶f̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶ t̶o̶ s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ a̶n̶d̶ d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶ m̶o̶r̶e̶ o̶f̶ a̶ n̶o̶n̶-̶t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶t̶e̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ m̶a̶k̶e̶s̶ i̶t̶ m̶u̶c̶h̶ e̶a̶s̶i̶e̶r̶ t̶o̶ c̶h̶o̶o̶s̶e̶ s̶i̶d̶e̶s̶ a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶s̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ a̶g̶g̶r̶e̶s̶s̶i̶v̶e̶ b̶u̶l̶l̶y̶ u̶n̶j̶u̶s̶t̶l̶y̶ t̶a̶r̶g̶e̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ c̶i̶v̶i̶l̶i̶a̶n̶s̶. T̶h̶e̶ e̶c̶o̶n̶o̶m̶i̶c̶ i̶m̶p̶a̶c̶t̶ i̶s̶ a̶l̶r̶e̶a̶d̶y̶ g̶l̶o̶b̶a̶l̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶ c̶o̶m̶m̶o̶d̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶ m̶o̶r̶e̶ t̶h̶a̶n̶ d̶o̶u̶b̶l̶e̶ w̶h̶a̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶y̶ w̶e̶r̶e̶ a̶ c̶o̶u̶p̶l̶e̶ o̶f̶ y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶ a̶g̶o̶. T̶h̶e̶ s̶c̶a̶l̶e̶ a̶n̶d̶ g̶l̶o̶b̶a̶l̶ i̶m̶p̶a̶c̶t̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ w̶a̶r̶ s̶u̶r̶p̶a̶s̶s̶e̶s̶ o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ w̶a̶r̶s̶ e̶s̶p̶e̶c̶i̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ i̶s̶ h̶a̶s̶ o̶n̶l̶y̶ b̶e̶e̶n̶ g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ o̶n̶ a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ a̶ m̶o̶n̶t̶h̶. K̶a̶r̶l̶o̶s̶ [̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶ W̶h̶e̶n̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶ t̶o̶o̶k̶ C̶r̶i̶m̶e̶a̶ c̶o̶n̶d̶e̶m̶n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ w̶a̶s̶ q̶u̶i̶c̶k̶. W̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ w̶a̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ c̶o̶n̶d̶e̶m̶n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ w̶h̶e̶n̶ T̶r̶u̶m̶p̶ s̶a̶i̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ w̶o̶r̶l̶d̶ s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ r̶e̶c̶o̶g̶n̶i̶s̶e̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶i̶ o̶w̶n̶e̶r̶s̶h̶i̶p̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶?̶ H̶o̶w̶ i̶s̶ t̶h̶i̶s̶ d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶t̶?̶ I̶f̶ y̶o̶u̶ c̶a̶n̶ t̶a̶k̶e̶ i̶t̶ b̶y̶ f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶, i̶t̶'s̶ y̶o̶u̶r̶s̶. B̶u̶t̶ o̶n̶l̶y̶ f̶o̶r̶ w̶e̶s̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ a̶l̶l̶i̶e̶s̶, a̶p̶p̶a̶r̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶.[̶/q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶ U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ C̶r̶i̶m̶e̶a̶ w̶a̶s̶ n̶o̶t̶ t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶t̶e̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶ b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶ a̶n̶n̶e̶x̶e̶d̶ i̶t̶. U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ h̶a̶d̶ a̶n̶ a̶m̶i̶c̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ d̶e̶a̶l̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶ a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ a̶ R̶u̶s̶s̶i̶a̶n̶ m̶i̶l̶i̶t̶a̶r̶y̶ b̶a̶s̶e̶ i̶n̶ C̶r̶i̶m̶e̶a̶. I̶n̶ c̶o̶n̶t̶r̶a̶s̶t̶, S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶ t̶r̶i̶e̶d̶ t̶o̶ w̶i̶p̶e̶ o̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ J̶e̶w̶i̶s̶h̶ r̶a̶c̶e̶ b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ a̶n̶n̶e̶x̶e̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶. S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶ a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ a̶t̶ i̶t̶s̶ i̶n̶c̶e̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ 1̶9̶4̶8̶ A̶r̶a̶b̶-̶I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶i̶ W̶a̶r̶ w̶h̶e̶n̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ d̶i̶d̶n̶'t̶ e̶v̶e̶n̶ h̶a̶v̶e̶ a̶ p̶r̶o̶f̶e̶s̶s̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶ m̶i̶l̶i̶t̶a̶r̶y̶ b̶u̶t̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶, E̶g̶y̶p̶t̶, (̶T̶r̶a̶n̶s̶)̶J̶o̶r̶d̶a̶n̶, I̶r̶a̶q̶ a̶n̶d̶ P̶a̶l̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶i̶a̶n̶ f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶s̶ a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶. I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ w̶a̶s̶ s̶h̶e̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ b̶y̶ a̶r̶t̶i̶l̶l̶e̶r̶y̶ f̶r̶o̶m̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ u̶p̶ t̶o̶ a̶n̶d̶ i̶n̶c̶l̶u̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶h̶e̶ 1̶9̶6̶7̶ S̶i̶x̶ D̶a̶y̶ W̶a̶r̶. I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ c̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ a̶ p̶r̶e̶e̶m̶p̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ a̶i̶r̶ s̶t̶r̶i̶k̶e̶ a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶s̶t̶ E̶g̶y̶p̶t̶ a̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ l̶a̶r̶g̶e̶r̶ A̶r̶a̶b̶ n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ w̶e̶r̶e̶ p̶l̶a̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶o̶ a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶. I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ i̶n̶v̶a̶d̶e̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ b̶u̶t̶ w̶e̶r̶e̶ a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ b̶y̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶ f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶. T̶h̶e̶y̶ d̶e̶c̶i̶d̶e̶d̶ t̶o̶ k̶e̶e̶p̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ t̶h̶i̶s̶ t̶i̶m̶e̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ g̶a̶v̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶ a̶ b̶u̶f̶f̶e̶r̶ z̶o̶n̶e̶ t̶o̶ s̶u̶r̶v̶i̶v̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ 1̶9̶7̶3̶ Y̶o̶m̶ K̶i̶p̶p̶u̶r̶ W̶a̶r̶ w̶h̶e̶n̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶ a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ 2̶8̶,0̶0̶0̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶n̶ t̶r̶o̶o̶p̶s̶, 8̶0̶0̶ t̶a̶n̶k̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ 6̶0̶0̶ a̶r̶t̶i̶l̶l̶e̶r̶y̶ p̶i̶e̶c̶e̶s̶ v̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ i̶n̶i̶t̶i̶a̶l̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ 3̶,0̶0̶0̶ t̶r̶o̶o̶p̶s̶, 1̶8̶0̶ t̶a̶n̶k̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ 6̶0̶ a̶r̶t̶i̶l̶l̶e̶r̶y̶ p̶i̶e̶c̶e̶s̶. I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ m̶a̶y̶ n̶o̶t̶ e̶x̶i̶s̶t̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ a̶s̶ a̶ b̶u̶f̶f̶e̶r̶ z̶o̶n̶e̶. T̶h̶e̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶n̶s̶ s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ d̶i̶d̶n̶'t̶ l̶e̶a̶r̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ l̶e̶s̶s̶o̶n̶ b̶u̶t̶ h̶a̶v̶e̶ a̶l̶l̶i̶e̶d̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ I̶r̶a̶n̶ p̶r̶o̶x̶y̶ H̶e̶z̶b̶o̶l̶l̶a̶h̶ t̶e̶r̶r̶o̶r̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ w̶h̶o̶ s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ t̶o̶ t̶h̶i̶s̶ d̶a̶y̶, a̶l̶b̶e̶i̶t̶ d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ m̶u̶c̶h̶ l̶e̶s̶s̶ d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ d̶u̶e̶ t̶o̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ p̶o̶s̶s̶e̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶. H̶e̶z̶b̶o̶l̶l̶a̶h̶ h̶a̶s̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶ 1̶0̶0̶,0̶0̶0̶-̶1̶5̶0̶,0̶0̶0̶ m̶i̶s̶s̶i̶l̶e̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ r̶o̶c̶k̶e̶t̶s̶ p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶e̶d̶ a̶t̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ b̶u̶t̶ f̶o̶r̶t̶u̶n̶a̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ t̶h̶e̶y̶ a̶r̶e̶n̶'t̶ a̶b̶o̶v̶e̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ o̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶. I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ h̶a̶s̶ n̶e̶g̶o̶t̶i̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ r̶e̶t̶u̶r̶n̶ o̶f̶ c̶a̶p̶t̶u̶r̶e̶d̶ l̶a̶n̶d̶s̶ i̶n̶ r̶e̶t̶u̶r̶n̶ f̶o̶r̶ p̶e̶a̶c̶e̶ s̶e̶v̶e̶r̶a̶l̶ t̶i̶m̶e̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ r̶e̶t̶u̶r̶n̶e̶d̶ E̶g̶y̶p̶t̶i̶a̶n̶ l̶a̶n̶d̶ w̶h̶e̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶y̶ a̶g̶r̶e̶e̶d̶ t̶o̶ p̶e̶a̶c̶e̶ b̶u̶t̶ a̶ g̶o̶o̶d̶ e̶x̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶n̶ e̶g̶o̶ i̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ K̶h̶a̶r̶t̶o̶u̶m̶ R̶e̶s̶o̶l̶u̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ t̶h̶e̶ Y̶o̶m̶ K̶i̶p̶p̶u̶r̶ W̶a̶r̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ s̶t̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ t̶h̶r̶e̶e̶ n̶o̶s̶ o̶f̶, "n̶o̶ p̶e̶a̶c̶e̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶, n̶o̶ r̶e̶c̶o̶g̶n̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ o̶f̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶, n̶o̶ n̶e̶g̶o̶t̶i̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ i̶t̶." T̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ w̶e̶r̶e̶ o̶n̶l̶y̶ a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ 1̶0̶0̶,0̶0̶0̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶n̶s̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ f̶l̶e̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ 7̶,0̶0̶0̶ r̶e̶m̶a̶i̶n̶i̶n̶g̶. T̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ w̶a̶s̶ h̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ J̶e̶w̶i̶s̶h̶ c̶o̶n̶t̶r̶o̶l̶ a̶t̶ t̶i̶m̶e̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ b̶o̶r̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ h̶a̶v̶e̶ c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶d̶ s̶e̶v̶e̶r̶a̶l̶ t̶i̶m̶e̶s̶. T̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ c̶i̶t̶y̶ o̶f̶ G̶a̶m̶l̶a̶ w̶a̶s̶ d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶e̶d̶ b̶y̶ t̶h̶e̶ R̶o̶m̶a̶n̶s̶ a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ a̶ l̶a̶r̶g̶e̶ b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶ o̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ w̶a̶y̶ t̶o̶ d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ J̶e̶r̶u̶s̶a̶l̶e̶m̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ 2̶n̶d̶ t̶e̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ s̶o̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶i̶t̶e̶s̶ s̶a̶y̶, "G̶a̶m̶l̶a̶ w̶i̶l̶l̶ n̶o̶t̶ f̶a̶l̶l̶ a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶" i̶n̶ s̶y̶m̶b̶o̶l̶i̶c̶ r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ t̶o̶ l̶o̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶. T̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ w̶e̶r̶e̶ f̶e̶w̶ J̶e̶w̶s̶ l̶i̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ G̶o̶l̶a̶n̶ H̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ a̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ t̶i̶m̶e̶ i̶t̶ w̶a̶s̶ c̶a̶p̶t̶u̶r̶e̶d̶ b̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶i̶s̶ l̶i̶k̶e̶l̶y̶ h̶a̶d̶ t̶o̶ d̶u̶e̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ a̶n̶t̶i̶-̶J̶e̶w̶i̶s̶h̶ r̶a̶c̶i̶s̶m̶ t̶o̶w̶a̶r̶d̶ s̶e̶t̶t̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ b̶y̶ t̶h̶e̶ A̶r̶a̶b̶ S̶y̶r̶i̶a̶n̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ O̶t̶t̶o̶m̶a̶n̶ T̶u̶r̶k̶s̶ b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶ d̶e̶s̶p̶i̶t̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ l̶o̶w̶ p̶o̶p̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶. S̶o̶r̶r̶y̶, y̶o̶u̶r̶ c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶ w̶a̶s̶ v̶e̶r̶y̶ p̶o̶o̶r̶. I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ h̶a̶s̶ a̶ r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ t̶o̶ d̶e̶f̶e̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶s̶e̶l̶v̶e̶s̶. T̶h̶e̶y̶ p̶r̶o̶b̶a̶b̶l̶y̶ c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ b̶e̶ b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ h̶u̶m̶a̶n̶ r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ f̶r̶e̶e̶d̶o̶m̶ b̶u̶t̶ i̶t̶ i̶s̶ i̶m̶p̶o̶r̶t̶a̶n̶t̶ t̶o̶ r̶e̶a̶l̶i̶z̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ i̶s̶ a̶ c̶e̶r̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ p̶e̶r̶c̶e̶n̶t̶a̶g̶e̶ o̶f̶ A̶r̶a̶b̶s̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ a̶r̶e̶ a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶l̶y̶ a̶n̶d̶ p̶e̶r̶p̶e̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ t̶r̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ t̶o̶ c̶o̶m̶m̶i̶t̶ t̶e̶r̶r̶o̶r̶i̶s̶t̶ a̶c̶t̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶. A̶l̶s̶o̶, t̶h̶e̶y̶ t̶r̶e̶a̶t̶ A̶r̶a̶b̶s̶ b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ t̶h̶a̶n̶ m̶a̶n̶y̶ A̶r̶a̶b̶s̶ w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ t̶r̶e̶a̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ i̶s̶ t̶o̶ e̶x̶t̶e̶r̶m̶i̶n̶a̶t̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶. T̶w̶o̶ b̶o̶r̶d̶e̶r̶ p̶o̶l̶i̶c̶e̶ w̶e̶r̶e̶ s̶h̶o̶t̶ a̶n̶d̶ k̶i̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ i̶n̶ o̶n̶e̶ i̶n̶c̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶ a̶n̶d̶ 4̶ c̶i̶v̶i̶l̶i̶a̶n̶s̶ k̶i̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ i̶n̶ a̶ s̶t̶a̶b̶b̶i̶n̶g̶ a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ l̶a̶s̶t̶ f̶e̶w̶ d̶a̶y̶s̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ u̶s̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'t̶ e̶v̶e̶n̶ m̶a̶k̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ n̶e̶w̶s̶ i̶n̶ o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ b̶u̶t̶ i̶s̶ b̶i̶g̶ n̶e̶w̶s̶ i̶n̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ s̶u̶c̶h̶ a̶ s̶m̶a̶l̶l̶ p̶o̶p̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶. I̶ l̶i̶k̶e̶ t̶o̶ r̶e̶a̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶ E̶n̶g̶l̶i̶s̶h̶ T̶i̶m̶e̶s̶ o̶f̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ f̶o̶r̶ n̶e̶w̶s̶. I̶t̶ s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ l̶e̶s̶s̶ b̶i̶a̶s̶e̶d̶ t̶h̶a̶n̶ m̶o̶s̶t̶ U̶.S̶. n̶e̶w̶s̶ a̶n̶d̶ g̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ a̶ d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ p̶e̶r̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ o̶f̶ e̶v̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ i̶n̶c̶l̶u̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ e̶d̶i̶t̶o̶r̶i̶a̶l̶s̶ w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶i̶m̶e̶s̶ c̶r̶i̶t̶i̶c̶i̶z̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶i̶ g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶. h̶t̶t̶p̶s̶:̶//w̶w̶w̶.t̶i̶m̶e̶s̶o̶f̶i̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶.c̶o̶m̶/ B̶e̶ c̶a̶r̶e̶f̶u̶l̶ o̶f̶ a̶n̶t̶i̶-̶I̶s̶r̶a̶e̶l̶ p̶r̶o̶p̶a̶g̶a̶n̶d̶a̶ f̶r̶o̶m̶ t̶h̶e̶ r̶a̶c̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ w̶h̶o̶ h̶a̶t̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶ a̶n̶d̶ s̶e̶e̶k̶ t̶o̶ d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶ t̶h̶e̶m̶. T̶h̶e̶ h̶a̶t̶r̶e̶d̶ f̶o̶r̶ s̶u̶c̶h̶ a̶ s̶m̶a̶l̶l̶ g̶r̶o̶u̶p̶ i̶s̶ i̶l̶l̶o̶g̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ y̶e̶t̶ i̶t̶ r̶e̶s̶u̶r̶f̶a̶c̶e̶s̶ t̶i̶m̶e̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶i̶m̶e̶ a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶. I̶ w̶i̶s̶h̶ e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ l̶i̶v̶e̶ t̶o̶g̶e̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ i̶n̶ p̶e̶a̶c̶e̶ b̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ i̶s̶ r̶e̶a̶l̶ e̶v̶i̶l̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ w̶o̶r̶l̶d̶.


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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 8:13:46
#12 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@matthey

Your opinions change what with regards to attitudes to refugees from other conflicts?

Since you pick up on the Israeli Palestinian conflict comparison, do you deny that there are innocent displaced Palestinians in said conflict? I'm sure the UN recognises this. And if Israel has the right to defend itself against its perceived enemies, why not Putin? We're so conditioned to the doublethink we don't even see the hypocrisy of it all when it's brandished Infront of us.

You don't even mention the rest. Yemen, for instance? The UK government doesn't say much about it because the armaments sales to the Saudi regime are profitable.

Last edited by Karlos on 28-Mar-2022 at 08:18 AM.

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amigang 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 10:55:08
#13 ]
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Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1873
From: Cheshire, England

@Karlos

I think this is becoming the problem for the west and its values when we apply different values for different conflicts and countries.

Its really sad whats happening in Ukraine, but it also sad what happen to yeman, Palestinians, afghanistans and iraq.

I wish mankind stopped fighting and work together, because what we can build, create is so much more impressive than what we can destroy. a real shame that we still haven't learnt this.

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 14:36:23
#14 ]
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@amigang

The aggression of our allies is either overlooked or, when it can't be so readily overlooked or hidden, cast in a light that makes the the recipient of their aggression a threat that the aggressor has a right to defend itself against.

This works very well for Israel. The best equipped army in the region is surrounded by hostiles that somehow equates to self defence when oppressing Palestinians. The conflict is portrayed as even sided, when absolutely nothing is further from the truth. It's a hugely asymmetric conflict. Just look at the death toll on each side. Ans yet, despite holding all the cards, Israel is forever the victim in this argument, everything it does is within it's right to self-defense. Disagree with this? You're an antisemite.

If the situation were reversed and it were a Jewish community besieged by Palestinians annexing their land, restricting their moment and responding with extreme disporoptionaliy to every act of violence, I'd be saying the same thing of their plight.

But we live in this reality. Nothing makes the reproductive organs of both your typical virtue signalling liberal or right leaning conservative politician retract faster than mentioning Palestine. "It's complicated.". "You don't understand!". "It's different!"

No, it really isn't.

Last edited by Karlos on 28-Mar-2022 at 02:36 PM.

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samo79 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 16:31:15
#15 ]
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From: Italy, Perugia

By their nature war conflicts do not spare anything .. especially in areas like Mariupol where civilians are prevented from escape in order to be constantly used as human shields by the neo-fascist extremists of the Azov battalion

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bison 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 16:38:01
#16 ]
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@Karlos

Quote:
And if Israel has the right to defend itself against its perceived enemies, why not Putin?

Perceived enemies? Do you mean the people who are shooting rockets into their cities? "Perceived" isn't the right word.

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 18:40:30
#17 ]
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@bison

Such a tragically predictable response.

It is absolutely the right word. Ask yourself why some Palestinians fire these rockets, if you can bear to. Israel created this threat to itself when it ignored the 1948 borders and drove countless families from their land in a relentless campaign of expansion and created a cycle of misery, suffering and violence that has persisted ever since.

The situation at the start was no different from the Palestinian's perspective than how Russia's aggression in Ukraine today is perceived by your average Ukrainian today. Half the population were driven from their homes and have never been able to return.

The only difference today is the passage of time and who owns the narrative. It's been about a month since the Russians forced their way into Ukraine. It's been 74 years since Israel tore up the map and began it's expansion. It's become a multi generational conflict. Examine how the map of Israel and Palestine has changed since 1948 to the present day and honestly ask yourself, would you be happy if you were on the receiving end of it.

So yes, some of them fire rockets sometimes. Some of those actually make it through the defences and some of those on turn injure and kill people. Does it justify a tenfold retribution from the greater power in the conflict? Casualty data from each side for most flare ups are recorded by the UN. You can check for yourself:
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

It's a grim story repeated over and over. Tell me, what would you offer the Palestinians in return for their pacification?

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matthey 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 19:11:18
#18 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2007
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From: Kansas

Karlos Quote:

Your opinions change what with regards to attitudes to refugees from other conflicts?


My opinions don't change reality. The Ukrainian people are perceived as peaceful law abiding Europeans which other European and Western countries are more likely to open their doors for. We are very wary of Muslim and Arab immigrants and refugees which have sometimes brought terrorism and hatred for us to our countries. These people would likely be better off settled into Middle East nations but they are often less compassionate to their own people and ruled by authoritarian autocrats. Much of the Middle East destabilization has come from Iran which is trying to build an empire of influence much like Putin trying to rebuild the Russian/Soviet empire, sometimes by proxy and puppet regimes. Iran is at least partially responsible for attacks in Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Lebanon, the Palestinian states, Israel and Saudi Arabia. Biden is ignoring the Iranian terrorism and trying to lift sanctions with the renegotiated nuclear deal so Iran gets oil money instead of Russia. This is U.S. foreign policy to support one evil regime instead of another as long as we meet our greenhouse gas obligations and don't produce the energy for the world here despite us being blessed with the supply.

There is likely some racial discrimination of poor immigrants from parts of Africa and Haiti over by the U.S. Some of the North African immigrants are Muslim and crime has been a problem. Many of these poor people lack education, skills and there may be language barriers. The world would benefit from utilizing their cheap labor force but these same socioeconomic problems limit how these nations can compete with the cheap labor of Asia. The world could do more to help these countries but in many cases they are shitting in their own nest. It is difficult to invest in corrupt nations where there is a lack of morality as can be seen by the huge U.S. malinvestment nation building in Ukraine, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Karlos Quote:

Since you pick up on the Israeli Palestinian conflict comparison, do you deny that there are innocent displaced Palestinians in said conflict? I'm sure the UN recognises this. And if Israel has the right to defend itself against its perceived enemies, why not Putin? We're so conditioned to the doublethink we don't even see the hypocrisy of it all when it's brandished Infront of us.


Sure, there are innocent Palestinians affected by the terrorist tendencies of the few but supported by a significant portion of the population. Some Palestinians are happy for the Israel economic success and benefit greatly from it but others sabotage it. Israel benefits from a cheap labor force but it is safer to use returning immigrants than local Palestinians. The Palestinians are another case of a people shitting in their own nest when huge economic opportunity is next door. The land of Judea/Israel (later called Syria Palestine by Greeks and Romans) was a poor low population region like the Golan Heights in most of modern history up until the late 1800s. It was settlers to the "Holy Land" that modernized and created an economic powerhouse that allowed the local population to grow. Other Arab/Muslim nations have made peace with Israel and have friendly diplomatic relations like Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. There is some unity against Iran and the terrorism they spread.

Announcing permanent regional forum, Israel, Arab states laud alliance, decry terror
https://www.timesofisrael.com/announcing-permanent-regional-forum-israel-arab-states-laud-alliance-decry-terror/

Karlos Quote:

You don't even mention the rest. Yemen, for instance? The UK government doesn't say much about it because the armaments sales to the Saudi regime are profitable.


Now I have mentioned Yemen but the big problem is Iran. This is a proxy war and the U.S. is also on the same side while Iran, Syria and Russia are on the opposing side. This is a continuation of the Cold War and proxy wars between the U.S. and Russia. Just in the Middle East, there is also the current Syrian War and in the past the wars between Israel backed by the U.S. and the Arab nations backed by Russia. The major difference is that some of the Arab countries have switched sides, still often reluctant to call themselves Israel or U.S. allies, and Iran is now the biggest threat to Middle East stability. The U.S. was involved directly with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars while being attacked by Iranian and Russian proxies like Russia was attacked by U.S. proxies when they were directly involved in Afghanistan. In my opinion, modern U.S. foreign policy has been awful, especially in the Middle East, but that doesn't make us the bad guys. There aren't many "good guys" in the Middle East so maybe it is better to stay out of the region but Iran, Russia and now China will take advantage and they have become hostile expansionist bullies.

Karlos Quote:

The aggression of our allies is either overlooked or, when it can't be so readily overlooked or hidden, cast in a light that makes the the recipient of their aggression a threat that the aggressor has a right to defend itself against.


Yes, there is often propaganda and false flags when starting wars. Certainly Saudi Arabia is far from a beacon of morality and freedom as our ally but Iran makes them look good. Ukraine really didn't do anything hostile toward Russia itself but did fight the separatists in the south east backed by Russia. Russia has the propaganda but the real reason for the invasion is Putin's plan to restore the Russian/Soviet empire by direct control or puppet regime. Belarus is a puppet regime, Georgia has land under Russia control and is intimidated into submission, Ukraine is New Russia (Novorossiya) and Moldova may be next on the list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya

Putin's ambitions could grow with success and appeasement like Hitler's ambitions in WWII. Unfortunately, the nuclear capabilities of Russia makes it very dangerous to check.

Karlos Quote:

This works very well for Israel. The best equipped army in the region is surrounded by hostiles that somehow equates to self defence when oppressing Palestinians. The conflict is portrayed as even sided, when absolutely nothing is further from the truth. It's a hugely asymmetric conflict. Just look at the death toll on each side. Ans yet, despite holding all the cards, Israel is forever the victim in this argument, everything it does is within it's right to self-defense. Disagree with this? You're an antisemite.


The times have changed since the Israel War for independence when they borrowed a cannon from a museum. Israel has a small population and territory while they have been relentlessly attacked by armies several times their size. That is the reason why they are one of the best equipped militaries in the world and have compulsory service including women. They have some of the best intelligence agencies in the world and will preemptively strike if they believe an attack is being planned against them. They profile people and have reduced freedom in the name of national security and this causes blowback sometimes. They can't afford to lose though.

Karlos Quote:

If the situation were reversed and it were a Jewish community besieged by Palestinians annexing their land, restricting their moment and responding with extreme disporoptionaliy to every act of violence, I'd be saying the same thing of their plight.

But we live in this reality. Nothing makes the reproductive organs of both your typical virtue signalling liberal or right leaning conservative politician retract faster than mentioning Palestine. "It's complicated.". "You don't understand!". "It's different!"

No, it really isn't.


If the situation was reversed, there would likely be genocide of the people of Israel. Here are some quotes from before the Six Day War.

Quote:

“Those who survive will remain in Palestine. I estimate that none of them will survive.” - Ahmed Shukairy, chairman of PLO in Jordanian Jerusalem, asked in news interview what will happen to the Israelis if there is a war.

"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood" - President of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser

“The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel." - Cairo Radio

“I believe that the time has come to begin a battle of annihilation.”- Syria’s Defence Minister Hafez Assad (later to be Syria’s President).

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map” - President Aref of Iraq

“Strike the enemy’s settlements, turn them into dust, pave the Arab roads with the skulls of Jews.”
- Hafez Assad
(Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p. 293)

“The operation of liberation is not merely removing an imperialistic base, but what is more important: the extermination of a society; not only is military defeat the aim in the Palestinian war of liberation, but the liquidation of the Zionist character of the occupied land, whether in manpower or in society.”
- Fatah statement (Liberation of the Occupied Lands and the Method of Struggle Against Direct Colonialism, September 1967; quoted in Y. Harkabi, The Palestinian Covenant and its Meaning [Vallentine Mitchell, 1979], pp. 47-8)

“We must fight our way to victory on a sea of blood and a horizon of fire.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Wall Street Journal, November 14, 1969)


Maybe it was just propaganda but in the 1973 Yom Kippur War there were 293 Israeli POWs while at least 86 may have been killed after surrendering.

https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-86-israeli-pows-killed-in-1973-war-1.5339130

It is wise to take threats of extermination seriously and Iran is the boldest nation making these threats to Israel today. There have been cases of abuse and unjust treatment by Israelis but it is not at the same level in my opinion. Many Palestinians are oppressed but how much of it is them shitting in their own nest?

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bison 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 19:11:29
#19 ]
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Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2088
From: N-Space

@Karlos

Quote:
Israel created this threat to itself when it ignored the 1948 borders and drove countless families from their land in a relentless campaign of expansion and created a cycle of misery, suffering and violence that has persisted ever since.

You're living in some sort of fantasy world.

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 19:16:52
#20 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2814
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bison

When valid counterargument fails there's always insults and name calling to fall back on.

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