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Poll : Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
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an_overeducated_idiot 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 3:25:43
#481 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2022
Posts: 14
From: Somewhere south of the North Pole

@an_overeducated_idiot

IMPERATIVE ZORRAM

Sorry, couldn't resist

added later: hey, that's my 10th post! Meanwhile, the ghost of Mega RJ Mical murmurs, "Silence, scum."

Last edited by an_overeducated_idiot on 03-Oct-2022 at 03:26 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 6:03:40
#482 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

Where OO goes wrong, is when you add methods to set and get the data, that’s how make something simple a fast into something slow and horrible.

Actually this is a very good feature to protect / control SOME field.

And since it's a feature you're NOT forced to use: use it ONLY if you really need.

So, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Rather, the opposite.

BTW on BOOPSI this is the only way to define and access properties and this is the wrong way, producing a waste of space and horrible performances.

BTW#2, BOOPSI does the same... with methods!


@an_overeducated_idiot

Quote:

an_overeducated_idiot wrote:

As for whether God programs in a procedural or object-oriented language: neither. God doesn't change state, which strongly suggests functional programming.

MUHAHHAHAHAH You made my day!!!


@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@an_overeducated_idiot

Quote:
if (a=b) instead of if (a==b)) takes down AT&T's entire east coast telephone network for half a day,


That's a feature, not a bug

Modern compilers will give you a warmings when you do -wall.

A feature?!?

GLOM. No comment...


@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@matthey

And all of them ended unmaintained before reaching 10% of the code base needed to make them useable with today's web (regardless of the underlying HW).

Most of the web browsers produced for the Amiga were barely usable at the time they were created. This had little to do with the programming language used and a lot to do with the skill of the programmers.

Actually this has A LOT to do with the programming language if those Amiga browser were written in assembly.
Quote:
Then again, most 'modern' web browsers are not usable on all of today's web, and many are not at all usable on anything less than the latest hardware.

Which makes sense: standards get updates because the needs change.

And you need better hardware for the new standards.

What's wrong with that?
Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@Karlos

Every program that can be programmed in any language can also be programmed in asm, provided the developer has a brain like a planet.

The most important requirement for such developer is that it should have a very long life...
Quote:
The reason languages become more 'idiot-proof'

Productive: NOT "idiot-proof".

Idiots are the ones that aren't able to use the right tool(s) to solve a specific problem.
Quote:
is so mere mortals can do programming.

So, according to your (own. And only own) definition you should be immortal, right?

Then it makes sense what you've written before: you can program everything in assembly, because you always have enough time.
Quote:
This was the case right from the beginning with languages like FORTRAN and BASIC, and continues today with Rust and Python.

Fortunately. Without Python I wouldn't be able to reach v10 for my architecture. And using assembly, not even the first version...
Quote:
Sure there is a cost in bloat,

As everything: productivity has a cost. A cost which could be happily payed if the results are coming.
Quote:
but Moore's law took care of that.

But it'll die soon (transistors couldn't get smaller than a certain size).

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 6:53:02
#483 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3131
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@an_overeducated_idiot

Quote:
The problem Rust solves is trusting the developer not to be an idiot. And there is nothing wrong with that


I'm not so sure this is true. If you've wrapped someone's hands up in cotton wool to ensure they can't hurt themselves on sharp things you wouldn't think it was then OK to ask them to drive a car. Unless, of course, you were also an idiot.

The point here is that you don't hire idiots in the first place, and if you did, Rust isn't going to prevent them from making mistakes. It's just that the mistakes they make will be a different kind. Will they be as bad? That's hard to say, it depends on what they are building.

I do appreciate what Rust is trying to do, but it's evangelists remind me of the Java ones of old.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 15:03:15
#484 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@cdimauro

Quote:
A feature?!?


if (a = b)

is the same as:

if ( ptr = malloc(1000) )

set, and check if you have a value, in one operation.
Its perfectly understandable, if you know “=” is always “set”, and “==” is always compare.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2022 at 03:08 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 16:05:00
#485 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3131
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
A feature?!?


if (a = b)

is the same as:

if ( ptr = malloc(1000) )

set, and check if you have a value, in one operation.
Its perfectly understandable, if you know “=” is always “set”, and “==” is always compare.



Yes it's a feature and one which is trivially easy to misuse when it's only one keystroke away from what you intend (whether it's = or backspace). You aren't compiling this with enough warnings enabled. An assignment in a test expression should be parenthesised. GCC has warned about this for years. Imagine someone adds another condition after your malloc() assignment. There's a leak waiting to happen if the deallocation is never reached.

Maybe the Rust evangelists have a point.

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 16:36:48
#486 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Karlos: exactly. It's one of the major source of bugs when working with C/C++/etc..

Python has also introduced the assignment operator recently, but it's using the "Pascal one" := which is much better to avoid such bugs.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 17:14:21
#487 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@Karlos

Not arguing ageist rust, sure they have point, but bugs are made by bad coders, not knowing to use the tools correct, not taking the time to check, the code is working, coding is an art and a skill, and takes time to learn.

it's like carpenter blaming the tools.

I used to code in Amos Basic, you do amazing things with that too, there most definably lot boilerplate code, as Amos code, you tried keep the program short as possible, etch command had huge overhead, even in that language amazing things where made.

You had to be creative with what you had.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2022 at 05:17 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2022 at 05:16 PM.

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bhabbott 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 18:37:03
#488 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 229
From: Aotearoa

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:

I'm not so sure this is true. If you've wrapped someone's hands up in cotton wool to ensure they can't hurt themselves on sharp things you wouldn't think it was then OK to ask them to drive a car. Unless, of course, you were also an idiot.

Modern cars are full of stuff to prevent idiots from making mistakes. But what do you define as an 'idiot'? Someone who drives too fast or erratically? I was impressed by the new work car we got recently. It warned when the boss exceeded the speed limit, and pulled the steering wheel back when he crossed the center line! Should cars be bloated with all this stuff? I say yes, because many drivers are idiots and these features make the roads safer to drive on. But that's not all. The vast majority of modern cars have automatic transmissions, for the idiots right? I have always owned manual cars until I got the Leaf (which, being electric, has no gears to shift). After 6 months of driving it I forgot how to drive a manual car! Many people have had the same experience - ergo we are all idiots.

It's the same with programming languages. Consider asm as being equivalent to a truck with manual gearbox and no synchro - getting those gears meshed right is your responsibility. C is like a manual car with synchro, and modern languages are like a modern automatic with all the safety features.

In the future we will have cars that any idiot can 'drive' without using their hands or feet - and this will be a good thing despite the enormous complexity that needs to be built into the vehicle. Similarly, programming languages are putting more inside the compiler so that 'idiots' can do 'programing' while most of the actual code is hidden away in libraries etc.

Quote:
The point here is that you don't hire idiots in the first place, and if you did, Rust isn't going to prevent them from making mistakes. It's just that the mistakes they make will be a different kind. Will they be as bad? That's hard to say, it depends on what they are building.

Everybody is an 'idiot' in a language they are not competent on. In some jobs you need to know assembly language, and the best C programmer in the world would be making 'idiot' mistakes.

Quote:
I do appreciate what Rust is trying to do, but it's evangelists remind me of the Java ones of old.

Evangelists of old insisted that C was the answer to everything. Then Commodore had to 'down-code' a bunch of stuff in Amiga OS to get the size down and speed up. Were the evangelists wrong? Today C is considered 'low level' compared to most language. Elite programmers chastise those who refuse to embrace C++, and excoriate asm coders. Yet the lower the level the more competence you need to avoid mistakes.


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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 18:39:06
#489 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3131
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

I'm sorry, but no, there's no defence against not putting parenthesis around the assignment in the conditional. It tells you, the next reader/maintainer and the compiler that you expect that to be an assignment which has a "truthy" (non-zero) out come on success. It has no bearing on the code that's actually generated. You don't pay per bracket.

Also, this isn't about a blaming your tools. A circular saw on your carpenter's bench has a number of basic safety features on it. You can take them off if you like, because you know what you are doing, right?

I don't have a problem with assigning something in an expression, provided the assignment is visibly intentional. Consider it like yellow and black chevron warning tape around that saw with no safety cover.

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 18:47:33
#490 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3131
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bhabbott

I've never actually met a "C evangelist" in 30+ years. They're generally too busy making things that everyone else depends on to make things. I may consider myself one, if it weren't for the fact I actually prefer some slightly hopped up admixture of C and C++ that puritans from either side would disown in an instant

I've said the same thing to every "Rust is the future" evangelist: Prove it: Get it fully self compiling and build your own OS out of it upon which to build the most robust platform for it to run on.

What's the point of hacking Rust into the linux kernel when interoperability with the C code requires turning off half the safety switches? What's the point of insisting your application is "strong", when the binary is generated by some untermensch language you routinely criticise as unsafe from the get go? What's the point of making the claim it's safe at runtime when entire swathes of code under it's process will be C code that has been called from it?

If you want the the true promise of Rust, do it from the ground up. Self compile. Build a kernel. Build the runtime. Do it all in Rust. Anything less is just willy waving.

Last edited by Karlos on 03-Oct-2022 at 06:48 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 18:58:51
#491 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@Karlos

The vast majority of modern cars have automatic transmissions, for the idiots right?

Wrong: for the people which like it or NEED it (injuries? You don't know how the real world is).
Quote:
I have always owned manual cars until I got the Leaf (which, being electric, has no gears to shift). After 6 months of driving it I forgot how to drive a manual car! Many people have had the same experience - ergo we are all idiots.

Ergo your is a very common logical fallacy. As usual, you show to lack elementary logic.

I'm perfectly able to switch from manual to automatic gear. So, definitely I'm not an idiot. Whereas you, for what you said yourself, are one (I'm just applying YOUR "logic").
Quote:
It's the same with programming languages. Consider asm as being equivalent to a truck with manual gearbox and no synchro - getting those gears meshed right is your responsibility. C is like a manual car with synchro, and modern languages are like a modern automatic with all the safety features.

Totally wrong: you don't know what you talk about.

Why don't you just talk about assembly, since it seems to be the only language where you have some rough knowledge?
Quote:
In the future we will have cars that any idiot can 'drive' without using their hands or feet - and this will be a good thing despite the enormous complexity that needs to be built into the vehicle. Similarly, programming languages are putting more inside the compiler so that 'idiots' can do 'programing' while most of the actual code is hidden away in libraries etc.

As already said, those languages aren't for idiots.

Idiots are the ones which aren't unable to use the right tool(s) to solve specific problems.

I've already said it, but you don't understand because you're a stubborn dumbass: framed on you asm-only parallel universe (your cave)...
Quote:
Quote:
The point here is that you don't hire idiots in the first place, and if you did, Rust isn't going to prevent them from making mistakes. It's just that the mistakes they make will be a different kind. Will they be as bad? That's hard to say, it depends on what they are building.

Everybody is an 'idiot' in a language they are not competent on.

Then when you plan to stop speaking about languages that you don't know?
Quote:
In some jobs you need to know assembly language, and the best C programmer in the world would be making 'idiot' mistakes.

Maybe such programmer knows ALSO assembly.

Again, your lack of elementary logic is embarrassing...

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 19:00:36
#492 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@bhabbott

I've never actually met a "C evangelist" in 30+ years. They're generally too busy making things that everyone else depends on to make things. I may consider myself one, if it weren't for the fact I actually prefer some slightly hopped up admixture of C and C++ that puritans from either side would disown in an instant

I've said the same thing to every "Rust is the future" evangelist: Prove it: Get it fully self compiling and build your own OS out of it upon which to build the most robust platform for it to run on.

What's the point of hacking Rust into the linux kernel when interoperability with the C code requires turning off half the safety switches? What's the point of insisting your application is "strong", when the binary is generated by some untermensch language you routinely criticise as unsafe from the get go? What's the point of making the claim it's safe at runtime when entire swathes of code under it's process will be C code that has been called from it?

If you want the the true promise of Rust, do it from the ground up. Self compile. Build a kernel. Build the runtime. Do it all in Rust. Anything less is just willy waving.

You can also do incremental changes to replace the components of the project one by one.

It's a much better approach if the project is big and you don't have time / resource to focus only on rewriting it.

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 19:28:47
#493 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3131
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bhabbott

Quote:
Evangelists of old insisted that C was the answer to everything


You could make the claim they were right, to be fair. The whole point of C was help make UNIX portable. It succeeded. Thanks to C, how many operating systems and applications do we have now that run on multiple platforms?

I don't have an issue with Rust itself. It's just another tool in the box. I'm not a big fan of the OCaml inspired syntax and I find the claims made by the most vocal proponents a bit laughable, but I'm sure plenty of decent software will be written in it. It's new and shiny and people love it, but in programming language circles, you grow or die. C has been "dead" for decades, but it's still here, powering almost everything* and what it doesn't is probably C++.

*If it were possible to graph the total number of machine operations globally per day as a function of the programming language that generated said operations, you'd probably need to zoom in a long way to see anything not emanating from C code.

Last edited by Karlos on 03-Oct-2022 at 07:32 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 03-Oct-2022 at 07:31 PM.

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an_overeducated_idiot 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 3-Oct-2022 23:11:23
#494 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2022
Posts: 14
From: Somewhere south of the North Pole

@all

I didn't mean to start a programming language war. Sorry.

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 4-Oct-2022 0:23:49
#495 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3131
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@an_overeducated_idiot

Don't be. We love it. Reflect on who are here. We're not all young impressionable types, we're all older, opinionated and if our skin were any thicker we'd have no other tissue at all.

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bison 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 4-Oct-2022 1:08:25
#496 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2103
From: N-Space

@an_overeducated_idiot

Quote:
The only downsides to Rust are the learning curve with the borrow checker, and the strange choice to make "move" the default for parameter passing, rather than "borrow",

I'm not crazy about the non-mutable default declarations, since most variables are... variable. It seems like a good idea in theory, but gets tedious when writing code.

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an_overeducated_idiot 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 4-Oct-2022 3:14:14
#497 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2022
Posts: 14
From: Somewhere south of the North Pole

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@an_overeducated_idiot

Quote:
The only downsides to Rust are the learning curve with the borrow checker, and the strange choice to make "move" the default for parameter passing, rather than "borrow",

I'm not crazy about the non-mutable default declarations, since most variables are... variable. It seems like a good idea in theory, but gets tedious when writing code.

Good point. Every major language designed over the past 10-15 years that I've looked into offers the ability to indicate declare a run-time symbol as mutable or immutable; for example:
- In Kotlin, val declares an immutable variable, while var declares a mutable one.
- Nim uses let and var, respectively.
That approach is kind of nice, since you always have to indicate your intent.

For the reader unfamiliar with this, "immutable" symbols differ from "constant" symbols (which all three languages declare via some use of const) in that the former are usually known only at run-time, while the latter can be evaluated at compile-time. The point of distinguishing them seems to be to force you to think in advance about what symbols need to be mutable, as aliased mutable symbols lie at the root of many, many pointer errors and data races. Even the relatively ancient Ada recognized this, imposing certain restrictions on aliased variables (Ada's term for "pointers") and offering protected types and protected tasks to avoid data races in concurrent & parallel code.

Rust's approach strikes me as more of a problem with vocabulary; they retained the word "variable" when they really mean "symbol". That's why I like the Kotlin approach, which rather than calling it a "mutable" or "immutable" variable, calls it a "variable" or a "value".

So, yeah, I agree that it's annoying. I guess you're like me, in that most of your variables end up mutable.

On the other hand, making function parameters immutable by default strikes me as the right choice (most languages do it that way, and it seems to be the usual desire), so maybe they settled on default immutability for local variables in order to preserve consistency of expectations. But I'm open to the possibility that that, too, is wrong.

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an_overeducated_idiot 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 4-Oct-2022 4:01:31
#498 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2022
Posts: 14
From: Somewhere south of the North Pole

@all

That reminds me... Another option that I've only touched on is Nim. Its compiler first transpiles to C, which it views as a "universal assembly language", so in principle it should be much easier to port than Rust. Nim isn't quite as robust as Ada or Rust, but its safety mechanisms are far more extensive than C's or C++'s.

Some have observed that C and C++ serve just fine; you just have to not be an idiot. First, thanks a lot. Second, you're right! Trouble is, any sufficiently large C or C++ program becomes so complex that every programmer is rendered an idiot. I once spent two weeks debugging a C++ program simply because I forgot to include a return statement. Sure, I'm an overeducated idiot, and sure, a modern compiler would catch that... but it probably won't catch every possible error, especially the more complicated ones that these features make all too easy to detonate accidentally. And that's before we consider how the C/C++ preprocessor opens the door to all manner of mischief.

You can use tooling to mitigate the language defects (-Wall, linting, etc.) but as a study I linked to earlier in this thread found, even MISRA C's guidelines seem to work against the stated goal of making C safe to use in the auto industry. Likewise, the programmers who developed OpenSSL and maintained it for decades are undoubtedly among the best in the world, but that didn't stop them from falling prey to a security exploit that is possible only because of a frequently-used "feature" of C that other languages prevent, the out-of-bounds-index exploit. (Other languages make it possible either to check statically that the program loops within the bounds of an array, or check at run-time that the index is not out of bounds, or both!)

Sooner or later, the tradeoff in productivity costs becomes painfully clear: the brilliant programmers are spending their time bug hunting instead of writing and improving good code. After all, there can't be that many idiots working at Mozilla, the OpenSSL project, AT&T, ...

PS Karlos, if you think that transpiling to C means Nim is no safer than C, then (a) you're wrong, but in any case (b) learn Ada. It doesn't translate to C first, and many Ada compilers are written in Ada.

Last edited by an_overeducated_idiot on 04-Oct-2022 at 04:02 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 4-Oct-2022 4:47:29
#499 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany



@an_overeducated_idiot

Quote:

an_overeducated_idiot wrote:
@all

I didn't mean to start a programming language war. Sorry.

Don't worry: it's only Bruce that sometimes exists from his asm-cave to spread the word of the Dead Coders Society (which are dead for good reasons, in this case).

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 4-Oct-2022 6:41:21
#500 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3131
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@an_overeducated_idiot

Quote:

PS Karlos, if you think that transpiling to C means Nim is no safer than C, then (a) you're wrong, but in any case (b) learn Ada


I don't know if you are intentionally misrepresenting my position or it just wasn't clear but for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not the one making the claim that any given language is somehow unsafe. That's the fallacy common to the guy that messed up in language X and found that he didn't make that same mistake in language Y and declares: "X is not safe, it lets you do that! Y is safe because it doesn't!" Well, don't that in language X then. Accept your mistake and learn from it. One day, after growth and experience you might even discover there's a particular problem for which that thing you complained about is an elegant and safe solution.

All languages are safe when used correctly. The more a language allows you to do and the more directly it allows you to do it, the more likely you are to need greater care to stay within the definition of correct usage.

If humans can write safe C, and there is ample proof to evidence the fact that they can, I have no doubt that a machine can too.

Last edited by Karlos on 04-Oct-2022 at 08:04 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 04-Oct-2022 at 06:48 AM.

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