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      /  Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 2-Jan-2023 10:54:13
#41 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
Presumably only as a consequence of oversampling. A 48kHz stream literally has no way to convey athing above 24kHz (other than unwanted aliasing frequencies below it). If your mixing process takes multiple streams, oversamples them to some multiple of their original sample rate and allows them to be mixed, boost, cut, EQ, compressed, phase adjusted etc. at that new sample rate then of course you can generate frequencies that weren't present in your originals.


Well, not exactly. Oversampling allows the headroom to allow you to filter out any nyquist bounce back harmonics, prior to it entering back down into the 21/24k realm, that were generated by lower sample rate sessions. It's why I mix in 96 to begin with however, it doesn't alleviate all of the issues, depending on what I am doing. Oversampling allows a much higher processing sample realm, for that plugin, to allow for those situations. It's a very needed feature. Even 96k sometimes is not enough.
Add in any square wave etc to a mix with analogue, that has to calculate endless harmonics, you can get there very easily, or as discussed previously, some sort of saturation, distortion etc. Re-Amping or DSP Impulse Response on guitars will do a fine job. Delays and reverbs, distortions, a bunch of things can generate high order harmonics when processing audio in studio mixing.

Last edited by SHADES on 02-Jan-2023 at 11:09 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 02-Jan-2023 at 11:06 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 2-Jan-2023 11:01:49
#42 ]
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From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
I remember reading about various cool things done using gated mics at different distances from the source, adding various chorus or other effects to vocals that only happen when the source volume increases above the more distant mics gate level. I think some of David Bowie's tracks used this technique on the vocals. Or the happy accidental discovery that led to the gated reverb on percussion made famous by Phil Collins.


Oh yes! that's right, the talk-back mic! The one added to a room so the drummer can talk to the engineer. That was the mistake that they left it on during recording and it made this huge booming drum sound that they had never heard before. That's where that song In the Air Tonight got famous.
A mistake that became a sort after effect. I believe there is a plugin to simulate the talk back mic now.

Quote:
Aesthetically, one problem I think exists with electronic/digital only production (by which I mean sound generation, mixing and processing done entirely electronically) is the lack of opportunity for similar happy accidents. Everything becomes by intent and if you want some cool new sound you have to think about it carefully before you capture it, or find a way to do it afterwards.


Well, you can just pass it through analogue modelling gear or simulation. I do that with my windows sound chain because I want levelled sound across my playlist. Equalizer APO is what it's called. Allows for VST as well.

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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 2-Jan-2023 15:30:34
#43 ]
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@SHADES

Quote:
Well, you can just pass it through analogue modelling gear or simulation


Yes, but that's with intentional forethought. The workflow of DAW production, as flexible as it is, doesn't leave much room for accidental discovery.

One of the things that made me start work on writing my own synth code is because I wanted to see what could be done with FM (I should say phase modulation) synthesis when removing the requirement for sine waves (or other shapes constructed from their basic symmetry which a lot of later Yamaha FM units use). In the process, I learned why it's not a common feature, but at the same time made some truly gnarly sounds. Even just substitution of the sine wave for triangle can produce some great 303 style resonant sounds without a filter in sight.

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Deniil715 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 2-Jan-2023 21:22:01
#44 ]
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@Karlos

Interesting stuff. Have you tried playing with Cathedral?
I made that as an experiment where you can actually model a room by the reflecting surfaces, and set some parameters. It can generate a random room with various parameters. Can generate stereo out of a mono file etc. Quite CPU intensive if you put a lot of reflections in there

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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 2-Jan-2023 22:47:44
#45 ]
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@Deniil715

If it's a simulation, it should be CPU intensive. I mean an accurate simulation is similar to ray tracing. And yet, even when you do that, I'm pretty sure humble filters are still needed regardless to simulate the faster attenuation of high frequencies by air and the general reflectivity of the surfaces at different frequencies.

Years ago at university there was a staircase in a hard stone building. The natural reverberation was wonderful. This was in the days before high quality field recorders. I would have loved to capture some impulse responses of it.

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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 4-Jan-2023 12:25:22
#46 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
Yes, but that's with intentional forethought. The workflow of DAW production, as flexible as it is, doesn't leave much room for accidental discovery. One of the things that made me start work on writing my own synth code is because I wanted to see what could be done with FM (I should say phase modulation) synthesis when removing the requirement for sine waves (or other shapes constructed from their basic symmetry which a lot of later Yamaha FM units use). In the process, I learned why it's not a common feature, but at the same time made some truly gnarly sounds. Even just substitution of the sine wave for triangle can produce some great 303 style resonant sounds without a filter in sight.


Sounds fun!
Yeah, you can pipe any shape you want, calculated or stepped to any frequency you hear. Normally ony the dominant harmonics get picked up by our ears unless, you specifically target them and even then the sweet spot of hearing is around 3-6k. We don't hear in a flat linear way for frequency, it's all curve. That's one thing bose (the audio engineers) tried to address with their speaker and EQ systems. They looked specifically at how we hear and designed their products from there. A lot of audio people hate bose for that, because their product changed the way sound was heard, to how it was produced.
Then again, so does the mixing and mastering of everything, recorded in the first place, right?
How many audio systems have an EQ strapped on them to turn up the bass as an example.

I know audiophiles like the bypass switch so they hear the sound as the engineer decided it should sound but even then, my guess is the engineer (if they are a good one) tried to make it sound decent for a variety of consumer grade devices and his speakers were different.

It's all about what sounds good to you and our ears don't hear on a flat response. They were very popular speaker and EQ packages for a very long time. Still sell for quite a bit of money too.

Creating different sound and having fun is what it's all about. I always hoped the amiga would get more audio channels and higher sample rates but we all know what happened there at commodore, all those years ago. Still loved playing around with sonix and star tracker etc as a kid.
I still have my sampler. Not that i need it these days.

Last edited by SHADES on 06-Jan-2023 at 11:40 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 06-Jan-2023 at 11:36 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 7-Jan-2023 0:11:08
#47 ]
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Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
Even just substitution of the sine wave for triangle can produce some great 303 style resonant sounds without a filter in sight.


Just to harp on this one point. The filter, as you know, would be the analogue domain.
Whether that be the propagation delay for the switching speed of your transistors, or their frequency response bode plot curve, to your resistors or discharge of capacitors or strength to your voice coils and speaker design, once you output to the analogue domain, you get "rounded" and introduce harmonics because, sound is 360 degrees. It's just not possible to make a triangle or square wave in the analogue sound domain, that you hear. Only digital representation of what it can be is. Once it gets generated to go out to a physical device, it starts to get rounded. Even a LED takes time to reach full brightness.

The reason you can damage speakers (blow them up) by sending square wave source to them is because DC or direct current (current in only in one direction) heats up the coil much more at pressure keeping it deflected in one direction for a longer time. Sound, follows a curve of +/- voltage following a sign wave.
If you hook up any speaker to a 9v battery, it's going to start smoking.
The pressure on a speaker cone of creating that magnetic field to go from zero to full scale deflection, would be only hindered by the coil strength and glue, holding it to the cone. Once that coil is pushed out as far as it can go, it will just start heating up, if it hasn't popped through the face of that cone trying to deflect instantly. So, yeah, I can imagine speakers dying really easily trying to reproduce square waves and triangle waves.
Then again, just by sending a triangle shape to a speaker makes that triangle shape a curve though. Just a much harsher sounding one. The speed of transition to full scale deflection of the analogue speaker means it has no choice but to bend the sides of that triangle. Even before that, the transistors driving that signal, only amplify a sweet spot of frequency that also, tapers off like a curve the higher, and lower they get.
Digital amps, well, yeah, I would suspect that they would sound even more harsh, only limited by their switching frequency, to create upper harmonics and output electronic resistances.


Last edited by SHADES on 07-Jan-2023 at 12:13 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 7-Jan-2023 9:23:52
#48 ]
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@SHADES

When I said no filter I meant creating ,TB303 style resonant acid sounds without using a resonant filter. In this case the effect was entirely additive (as distinct from regular subtractive synthesis using filters). One triangle wave (same or related frequency) modulating the phase of another in the "FM" style causes the carrier wave to distort to a more sawtooth shape, then gets foldbacks as the phase modulation increases. These add the first hard octave harmonic and you get more and more the harder you drive it. The foldbacks happen because you are driving the carrier wave "backwards" past its own peaks at that point (the phase distortion backwards is greater than the incremental movement forwards of the oscillator with respect to time). The introduction of the harmonics and the foldbacks give the distinctive resonant/distorted sound.

What I learned in the process of building these things was a deeper intuition of how FM synthesis works. Which is good because the biggest criticism of FM is how unintuitive it is. The visual interpretation is that the rising edge of the modulator wave compresses (time, not amplitude) whatever part of the carrier is playing at that time, and the falling edge stretches it out. Wherever the modulator wave output is stationary (turning points, zero output etc), the carrier is unaffected. Extreme amounts of modulation can literally send the carrier into reverse.

Last edited by Karlos on 07-Jan-2023 at 02:43 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 07-Jan-2023 at 02:39 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 07-Jan-2023 at 09:28 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 07-Jan-2023 at 09:27 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 9-Jan-2023 0:09:00
#49 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
When I said no filter I meant creating ,TB303 style resonant acid sounds without using a resonant filter. In this case the effect was entirely additive (as distinct from regular subtractive synthesis using filters). One triangle wave (same or related frequency) modulating the phase of another in the "FM" style causes the carrier wave to distort to a more sawtooth shape, then gets foldbacks as the phase modulation increases. These add the first hard octave harmonic and you get more and more the harder you drive it. The foldbacks happen because you are driving the carrier wave "backwards" past its own peaks at that point (the phase distortion backwards is greater than the incremental movement forwards of the oscillator with respect to time). The introduction of the harmonics and the foldbacks give the distinctive resonant/distorted sound.


Ok, that makes much more sense.
So you feed the output of a wave oscillator into the control of another (2nd oscillator) type setup.

Quote:
What I learned in the process of building these things was a deeper intuition of how FM synthesis works. Which is good because the biggest criticism of FM is how unintuitive it is. The visual interpretation is that the rising edge of the modulator wave compresses (time, not amplitude) whatever part of the carrier is playing at that time, and the falling edge stretches it out. Wherever the modulator wave output is stationary (turning points, zero output etc), the carrier is unaffected. Extreme amounts of modulation can literally send the carrier into reverse.


Yup yup yup, that's it reverse and back again like a "ringing" modulation. Cool. Yeah, they go negative numbers etc, however, in the real world, they just start counting up again and you get your ordered harmonics, some less in amplitude than others as the cancel each other out or lesson amplitude of other harmonics. I've seen that stuff in software synths before. You start to see more harmonics as you increase amplitudes.

Last edited by SHADES on 09-Jan-2023 at 08:18 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 09-Jan-2023 at 08:16 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 09-Jan-2023 at 12:21 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 9-Jan-2023 23:08:09
#50 ]
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Posts: 3511
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@SHADES

Quote:
Ok, that makes much more sense.
So you feed the output of a wave oscillator into the control of another (2nd oscillator) type setup


Exactly that. To go further, you have what Yamaha call an "operator". Think of an oscillator with envelope (for amplitude, pitch and whatever else) and you use it's output level to adjust the phase of a second operator. That's how FM works fundamentally. You can combine any number of such operators in theory, with lots of different routing topologies (what Yamaha call algorithms in their parlance).

The most interesting part of the scheme is that an operator can modulate itself. This is a bit trickier to implement but it's fundamental to creating saw tooth waves from pure sine based oscillators in that original hardware.

I wrote my oscillator components to support all these things, but not be restricted to sine wave as the fundamental shape. They are just components in a bigger framework with the additional shore of filters, LFO etc.

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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 10-Jan-2023 0:19:27
#51 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
To go further, you have what Yamaha call an "operator". Think of an oscillator with envelope (for amplitude, pitch and whatever else) and you use it's output level to adjust the phase of a second operator. That's how FM works fundamentally. You can combine any number of such operators in theory, with lots of different routing topologies (what Yamaha call algorithms in their parlance).


Yup, so your carrier wave, changes the frequency of your feed in oscillator as it peaks, returns to zero widens etc, yup I get it. FM
You start sending different shapes other than sign into it, or multiples, already modulated or twin inputs fed with separate controls, summed at the output etc
Operators seems a reasonably logical choice of descriptive process, I guess.

Last edited by SHADES on 10-Jan-2023 at 12:21 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 10-Jan-2023 10:29:56
#52 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@SHADES

Even Yamaha started using different wave shapes in their later synths, e.g. the TX81Z. However they did so by permuting the sinewave table they already had. This makes sense because you don't radically increase the lookup ROM on the chip, you are just reading the table differently. So they had things like half rectified sinewaves, waves with pinches, waves with half silent duty cycles and so on, but all were made by reusing the sinewave data.

I've replicated this in my code too but I also allow true saw, square, pulse, saw and other "classic" subtractive synthesis primitives. And I don't have operators, except as high level constructs around the same modular bits. So my FM synth is really just a set of modular bits arranged to perform the task rather than anything hard wired to do so. The same oscillator code classes are used to make subtractive sybths, LFOs etc.

As an aside, not all shapes work well for carrier operators, e.g. if the carrier is a square wave primitive, the only outcome possible from phase modulation is a form of PWM, which there are far less computationally intensive ways of generating.

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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 10-Jan-2023 23:37:29
#53 ]
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Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
I've replicated this in my code too but I also allow true saw, square, pulse, saw and other "classic" subtractive synthesis primitives. And I don't have operators, except as high level constructs around the same modular bits. So my FM synth is really just a set of modular bits arranged to perform the task rather than anything hard wired to do so. The same oscillator code classes are used to make subtractive sybths, LFOs etc.


Have you ever thought of making a plugin? .VST or even a .JS of some sort? I bet the Digital Audio Workstation - Reaper community would get a hoot out of playing with this stuff.
"I'm a Reaper convert"

Last edited by SHADES on 10-Jan-2023 at 11:40 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 10-Jan-2023 23:45:32
#54 ]
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@SHADES

I haven't to be honest. The goal here is more for computationally efficient synthesis and as such it's probably not quite ideal. Proper VST instruments will use a lot more CPU to get things tweaked as close as possible to the "ideal". There are some amazing modular synthesis plugins for VST though.

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SHADES 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 11-Jan-2023 0:10:27
#55 ]
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@Karlos

Ahh, to hell with .vst

https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/js/js.php

Could make some gnarly transition audio effects ??
I wish there was a Reaper for Amiga OS to be honest. Runs in Linux/Mac Win

This is my daily beast now but also, such an amazing creative tool.
So much beyond a mere multi-track studio or sample tracker.

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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 11-Jan-2023 0:44:39
#56 ]
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@SHADES

My next goal is really to complete porting to C++ (maybe C too) and implement as virtual sound hardware for the MC64K virtual machine. Ideally running as a separate process from the interpreter to improve my skills around modern C++ portable approaches to parallelism. It seems like a fruit at just the right being to be both fun and educational at once.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 11-Jan-2023 1:50:16
#57 ]
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From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.


Back in the day I did some car stereos and home units wired 4 Speakers in a Matrix configuration, had some interesting effects, a bit pseudo surround sound, was very interesting. For the 70's it was unique, wonder what can be done at with line level processing?



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Karlos 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 11-Jan-2023 7:56:09
#58 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@QuikSanz

Assuming you start with a stereo signal, the things that I can see that you could use up front are inversion, L/R sum/difference, filter and delay. These can all be used in various ways to make the rear pair of speakers differentiate from the front.

After that you are looking at more complex effects to try and simulate space. You could probably use a dedicated reverb algorithm that outputs 4 channels.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 11-Jan-2023 14:27:45
#59 ]
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@Karlos,

Played with L/R difference and phasing, A slightly adjustable delay on the line could be interesting, could do some flanging.

Chris

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Wol 
Re: Audio processing, effect simulation, that sort of thing...
Posted on 11-Jan-2023 18:40:09
#60 ]
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Posts: 986
From: UK.......Sol 3.

@Thread..
Some mixing equations...

V out (t) = V f1 (t) V f2 (t)

= [V f1 cos(2π f1 t)] [V f2 cos (2π f2 t+ f2)]

=1/2 Vf1 Vf2 [cos(2π(f2 - f1)t + f2) + cos(2π( f2 + f1)t + f2)]

----------------- Down Converted part ----------- UP Converted part

Where:
V = Volts amplitude.

t = Time.

= Frequency.

f1 = input 1

f2 = input 2

= Phase

out = Output Frequencies....lots

π = 3.141...............


These equations explain why you get sum and difference of frequencies mixed
together, usually through some non-linear device ( eg: an Amplifier or Mixer of some sort ).

These equations are usually used in RF Mixer design ; but are valid when any analouge
frequencies are mixed together.

Eg: 20Khz and 10Khz will produce an output of 30Khz and 10Khz...

So you get UP and DOWN converted signals...

Also the UP and DOWN converted signals can also interact with the Two original signals
and produce even more products, on to infinity........at lesser amplitude.

So, some Audio source, say; Music which has a whole bunch of frequencies
stuffed in it; will produce lots of UP and DOWN converted products well outside
the original bandwidth.


Opologies if stuff like this has been posted already, not read all the thread.



Wol..

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