@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @tlosm It's on their roadmap for Q1 2025 = near future!

“Full size�, not “mini�.

_________________
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@matthey

Maybe you will get a CD32 Mini looking like this:









































































The Amiga500 look was used, because it was the Amiga most people had. Making a full size reproduction wouldn't make sense today, it would occupy a lot of space on the desk with a nearly empty case.
An Amiga inspired keyboard case could be possible but they should figure out how to exchange the keys for national keyboard support, I don't know if they would go this way.

An Amiga/Atari/C64/MSX/Spectrum X-Over would be another possibility, but the styles and keyboard where totally different, so it would be better to do it without a keyboard.

I would call a CD32 version unlikely, the design is not 'iconic', people who had formerly used the Amiga had long left when this system appeared. Most of this products are targeting a retro gamer market, I wouldn't be surprised if they would announce some X-Over gaming thing.

I'm curious what they will bring to the market but I might not be a possible customer.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 19-Oct-2024 at 06:54 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 19-Oct-2024 at 06:53 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 19-Oct-2024 at 04:31 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 19-Oct-2024 at 04:30 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 19-Oct-2024 at 04:29 PM.

BigD Quote:

The A600 form factor reminds people of the A1200 but is cuter an cheaper to produce with a fully functional keyboard. For me THEA500 Mini WAS THECD32 Mini; it could play AGA/CD32 games, came with a CD32 type joypad and had no built in keyboard! Job done, no need to return to that. Have an 060 RTG level ARM emulated Amiga in an A600 case. The form factor is about aesthetics and marketing and on that front the A600 fits the brief for a Maxi Console!

There are some people who don't have as fond of recollection of the Amiga 600 like the customers that bought it right before the Amiga 1200 came out. David Pleasance and anyone else that had to sell the Amiga 600 probably didn't think it was so cute either.

OneTimer1 Quote:

Maybe you will get a CD32 Mini looking like this:

The CD32 doesn't work well without the CD-ROM. It's not the prettiest or the most popular "box" either. A box design is cheap and easy though. The A3000 was the prettiest and most recognizable box Amiga. A Mini box makes more sense actually.



Something like a Checkmate Amiga 3000 case could be used as a Maxi but it is pointless with a bunch of empty space unless the hardware is expandable, unlike THEA500 Mini.

BigD Quote:

The Amiga500 look was used, because it was the Amiga most people had. Making a full size reproduction wouldn't make sense today, it would occupy a lot of space on the desk with a nearly empty case. An Amiga inspired keyboard case could be possible but they should figure out how to exchange the keys for national keyboard support, I don't know if they would go this way. An Amiga/Atari/C64/MSX/Spectrum X-Over would be another possibility, but the styles and keyboard where totally different, so it would be better to do it without a keyboard. I would call a CD32 version unlikely, the design is not 'iconic', people who had formerly used the Amiga had long left when this system appeared. Most of this products are targeting a retro gamer market, I wouldn't be surprised if they would announce some X-Over gaming thing. I'm curious what they will bring to the market but I might not be a possible customer.

For the Maxi, the Amiga 1200 is the most appealing and worth more, perhaps up to 40% more if the keyboard is descent quality and supports different layouts for different languages like the original Amiga 1200. If the keyboard is cheap and only has a universal layout then the Amiga 600 is fine because it is a toy. I expect the latter with poor ARM hardware and another missed Amiga opportunity to expand the Amiga user base. The Trevor 40th anniversary Amiga is an A1222 which is a bigger joke.

Last edited by matthey on 20-Oct-2024 at 01:03 AM.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: There are some people who don't have as fond of recollection of the Amiga 600 like the customers that bought it right before the Amiga 1200 came out. David Pleasance and anyone else that had to sell the Amiga 600 probably didn't think it was so cute either.

The disdain for the A600 was based on poor value for money, kind of like the disdain for the A1222+.
It was not based on the enclosure.

I doubt anyone suffered any PTSD from their A600 purchase to the point where an A600 Maxi would be triggering.

For me, beyond having a good/usable keyboard, the product will pivot on what's inside:
- If it's just a A500 Mini in a proper keyboard wedge case, then no sale.
- If it's a decent upgrade from the A500 Mini, in performance, connectivity, and software scope, i.e. A new entry in the 68k+ category, then I will get one.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

agami Quote:

The disdain for the A600 was based on poor value for money, kind of like the disdain for the A1222+. It was not based on the enclosure.

From an Amiga consumer perspective, I expect you are correct that the Amiga 600 disdain is mostly due to lack of value and not the aesthetics. Value is relative as the Amiga 600 IDE, PCMCIA, ECS and smaller footprint advantages partially offset incompatibility, keyboard castration and a higher price compared to the Amiga 500(+). The Amiga 1200 came out shortly after with much better value than the Amiga 600 making recent Amiga 600 customers feel ripped off (68EC020&AGA@14MHz for $100 USD more than 68000&ECS@7MHz and no castrated keyboard). More savvy Amiga customers may have realized that Amiga 1200 availability was reduced until Amiga 600 inventories were sold off and that the Amiga 600 was the single most foreseeable mistake that sunk CBM. The A1222+ is indeed "kind of like" the Amiga 600 as the worst single foreseeable PPC Amiga1 mistake also due to lack of value and also wasting resources/capital and blocking better opportunities in the 68k Amiga retro market. The A1222+ has vastly worse value than the Amiga 600 did but the scale of the mistake due to barely any production is less.

Even the Amiga 1200 and CD32 lacked value which is why they did not sell better/faster by the time of their too late release. AGA was a rushed chipset that should have had AA+ specs which would have dramatically increased value with 28/56MHz CPU+chipset operation, increased bandwidth for more colors using non-interlaced VGA compatible modes, increased chip mem support, chunky modes, faster blitter, 16-bit audio, full speed HD floppy support, buffered serial support, etc. A 68k&AA+ SoC could have further increased value by reducing costs by ~$100 USD according to the "Future Product Options" doc and $100 just happens to be the difference between the introduction price of the Amiga 600 and Amiga 1200.

"Future Product Options"
https://pdf.ac/3cAJLO

If CBM had not been so far behind in their Amiga chipset development plans, the Amiga 600 mistake may have never been made as CBM could have brought newer and better value hardware to market for a similar price and without the need for castration. We see a lot of castration and cut down features in the Amiga market today due to lack of value from avoiding competitive development and mass production. Lower prices from castration alone do not provide value.

agami Quote:

I doubt anyone suffered any PTSD from their A600 purchase to the point where an A600 Maxi would be triggering. For me, beyond having a good/usable keyboard, the product will pivot on what's inside: - If it's just a A500 Mini in a proper keyboard wedge case, then no sale. - If it's a decent upgrade from the A500 Mini, in performance, connectivity, and software scope, i.e. A new entry in the 68k+ category, then I will get one.

Again, I agree that the hardware inside is very important for the value of a real Amiga and not just a toy with a nostalgic facade. As long as castrations and facades are used to provide value for toys the Amiga will go nowhere. Even a RPi 4 inside a Maxi with a functional keyboard is still a toy. It offers minimal additional value over a RPi 4 in the tiny Amiga 3000 case I posted above with a better external USB keyboard and which could have a cheaper price. All these emulation and FPGA products are just cut down in different areas and can't differentiate themselves while dividing the 68k Amiga market. A 68k SoC offers vastly better value than any emulation hardware or FPGA hardware thus unifying the Amiga market for mass production. Even with dramatically increased 68k Amiga value, the Amiga market may be border line too small for 68k SoC development and mass production which is why it would be important to sell into other markets with other 68k retro hardware and embedded markets being the obvious choice. Really, development should have been started years ago and out now for the retro 68k peak and Amiga 40th Anniversary but the Amiga demise is all about perpetually poor leadership and missed opportunities in Amiga Neverland.

Last edited by matthey on 20-Oct-2024 at 05:45 PM.

@matthey

A Raspberry Pi case in beige with faked cooling slots ... sure it looks "Amigaish" except for the wedgie fans.

I had already posted some links to Amigaish cases in the A600GS thread:

A3000 inspired cases:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5921605
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:948311
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4106497

Amiga PSU (or loosely C= like) cases:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3742544
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1794271
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2942692

Cases inspired by external floppy cases for the Amiga:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5342990
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2824673

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 20-Oct-2024 at 06:32 PM.

OneTimer1 Quote:

A Raspberry Pi case in beige with faked cooling slots ... sure it looks "Amigaish" except for the wedgie fans.

A wedge Amiga makes all kinds of sense, especially for Euro Amiga markets. In some ways, it is more practical today with small SBCs and reduced expansion needs than it was back in the CBM days. CBM mass produced Amigas though which made multiple language keyboards and higher value internal hardware more practical. So called Amigas today are low production fantasies and cheap toys. The RGL Maxi is unlikely to be an exception.

@thread

Saw this review of the Commodore 64x this morning:
https://youtu.be/JG1TdfezJzo?si=9np6fwNO-uGxfxkf

Available as full system or just the barebones case:
https://www.mini-itx.com/bundle/C64x-LI39

Some of you might do a spit-take at the price of the barebones system as you probably have this misguided notion that it's only $5 of plastic, a $10 keyboard, and $2 worth of cables.

If I don't like what RGL market as the A Maxi, then I can fall back on this enclosure and build my own emulation system.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@matthey

Quote:

Even the Amiga 1200 and CD32 lacked value which is why they did not sell better/faster by the time of their too late release.

According to Brian Bagnall's books they both faced production issues due to Commodore mismanagement/lack of funds.

agami Quote:

Saw this review of the Commodore 64x this morning: https://youtu.be/JG1TdfezJzo?si=9np6fwNO-uGxfxkf Available as full system or just the barebones case: https://www.mini-itx.com/bundle/C64x-LI39 Some of you might do a spit-take at the price of the barebones system as you probably have this misguided notion that it's only $5 of plastic, a $10 keyboard, and $2 worth of cables.

The C64x and many other cases are not mass produced. The cheaper mass produced wedge computer keyboards may be close to the "misguided notion", for example the RPi 400.

RPi 400 (4GiB) $70
RPi 4 4GiB $55
---
~$15 for case with heat sink, keyboard, power supply, micro HDMI to HDMI cable and mouse

It is a crazy good deal even if it is "cheaper" than what I would prefer for daily use. The Amiga 1200 keyboard is higher quality and was ~$9 USD circa 1993 which would be ~$19 USD adjusted for inflation. As you know, many mass produced computer parts decreased in cost relative to inflation unless labor intensive. Keyboard production is likely more automated today including for changes for different foreign keyboards if there is enough volume for production runs? Different keyboard layouts require different part numbers, increase inventory costs and complicate logistics. CBM was big and produced PC keyboards as well so they already had the means to produce Amiga keyboards where a business may be better off contracting an East Asian business to make them. CBM mistakes included retaining divisions that were becoming more and more commoditized and lower margin like PC and fab production while falling behind in their higher margin silicon design and engineering. The RPi Foundation uses commodity SoCs but has also become a fabless semiconductor developer which has the potential to lower costs and improve value further as the silicon costs are a much larger difference from CBM days than case, keyboard and cable costs.

The RPi 400 could have used a cheaper in-order CPU with higher performance than a RPi 3 Cortex-A53 and 2 GiB of memory instead of 4 GiB to reduce the price by at least $20 USD. The in-order SiFive U74 core claims to reach 2.64 DMIPS/MHz and avoids most load-to-use stalls compared to the Cortex-A53 2.3 DMIPS/MHz with a big load-to-use penalty of 3 cycles.

core | DMIPS/MHz performance
Cortex-A53 2.3 (RPi 3)
SiFiveU74 2.64 (StarFive VisionFive 2)
Cortex-A72 5.45 (RPi 4)
Cortex-A76 6.60 (RPi 5)

An older OoO Cortex-A57 core was already about 6 times larger than an in-order Cortex-A53 core and a Cortex-A72 core is likely significantly larger. A Cortex-A76 core is likely significantly larger yet. ARM core transistors appear to be growing exponentially and are far from small cores today. ARM used to add extra CPU cores to SoCs because they were small and provided parallel performance to partially make up for their weak single core performance but most newer ARM SoCs have no core count reduction bloating up the transistor counts times 4 in many cases. Newer ARM core transistors counts don't seem to be available perhaps because they are nothing to brag about anymore?

year | CPU | transistors
1975 6502 3,500
1979 68000 68,000
1984 68020 190,000
1985 ARM1 25,000
1985 80386 275,000
1986 ARM2 30,000
1987 68030 273,000
1990 68040 1,170,000
1993 Pentium 3,100,000 superscalar in-order 2-way
1994 68060 2,530,000 superscalar in-order 2-way
1994 ARM7 250,000
1995 PentiumPro 5,500,000 OoO uop
2002 ARM11 7,500,000
2008 Nehalem 731,000,000 (1st gen Core i7 with 4 cores) 64 bit OoO uop
2011 Cortex-A7 10,000,000 superscalar in-order 2-way
2012 Cortex-A53 12,500,000 64-bit superscalar in-order 2-way
2012 Cortex-A57 75,000,000 64-bit OoO 3-way big.LITTLE companion of Cortex-A53

A SiFive U74 core is likely smaller than a Cortex-A53 core and uses a core design that more closely resembles a CISC design like the 68060 than the Cortex-A53 design. The CISC design practically removes performance killing load-to-use stalls even for RISC ISAs. A CISC ISA like the 68k can have even higher performance as most memory access instructions are the equivalent of 2 RISC instructions. There are fewer 68k instructions to execute than RISC-V instructions and the code density is significantly better which boosts performance. This leads to another important advantage which is a smaller footprint needing less memory. ARM is using AArch64 which has worse code density than RV32IMC/RV64IMC which has worse code density than the 68k. A 68k Amiga with 2 GiB of memory would seem amazingly spacious while 2GiB is tight for AArch64 Linux. ARM royalties add cost as well with 2% plus for Cortex-A cores and 0.5% for their Physical IP Package (POP). The RPi 400 could be vulnerable to a product using an in-order CPU core with 3-4 DMIPS/MHz performance, 2 GiB of memory with better code density and a thin 32-bit OS and the avoidance of ARM royalties for production. The cost savings could be applied to a better quality and more faithful retro product which could be important for the retro market. There would be more development cost where ARM is quicker and easier to develop but has a production cost disadvantage.

agami Quote:

If I don't like what RGL market as the A Maxi, then I can fall back on this enclosure and build my own emulation system.

Sure. There are many more and better Amiga options than the C64x for a PC SBC. The Checkmate 3000 easily houses a PC SBC. The new Amiga 1200 cases can use USB keyboards so a small PC SBC could fit in an Amiga 1200 case. There are Amiga key caps for the USB keyboards. You get the best emulation with WinUAE and better CISC performance with x86-64. You will pay more than for mass produced products and it isn't an Amiga but you can pretend it is if you can fantasize as well as Trevor. It may not be the best Amiga despite the facade but it is a functional PC to complete your assimilation to the PC world.

Turrican3 Quote:

According to Brian Bagnall's books they both faced production issues due to Commodore mismanagement/lack of funds.

No doubt. CBM needed to sell the CDTV and Amiga 600 to have the cash to produce the Amiga 1200 and CD32 but they had to heavily discount them and they were still slow sellers. The XOR patent issue in the US also caused dead NTSC CD32 inventory which couldn't be solved by discounting. The Amiga 1200 and CD32 were moderately successful at the price CBM was selling them for. Knock $100 USD off the price while doubling the performance and they would have been flying off the shelves in the UK at least. With a better CD32 controller, Sega may have been in big trouble before the Saturn was released.

Last edited by matthey on 21-Oct-2024 at 10:06 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 21-Oct-2024 at 09:45 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: agami [quote] Sure. There are many more and better Amiga options than the C64x for a PC SBC. The Checkmate 3000 easily houses a PC SBC. The new Amiga 1200 cases can use USB keyboards so a small PC SBC could fit in an Amiga 1200 case. There are Amiga key caps for the USB keyboards.

In terms of computers in a keyboard, the C64x scratches a particular nostalgia itch. I sold my original breadbox C64 to buy an A500 in the late '80s. Later in life I purchased a C64c on Ebay to get back what was once lost, but there is still a fondness for the old breadbox case because it was my first computer.

Quote:

You will pay more than for mass produced products and it isn't an Amiga but you can pretend it is if you can fantasize as well as Trevor. It may not be the best Amiga despite the facade but it is a functional PC to complete your assimilation to the PC world.

I don't think the RGL A Maxi will be a "mass produced" product. I doubt they'll move much more the a 10th of the A500 Mini. That's still more than 10k units, and I suppose in Amigaland 10k of a single SKU can be seen as mass produced, but that does not make it an Amiga.

I give into no such fantasies. Nothing has ever been the Amiga since Commodore, an I have tried pretty much everything the industry had to offer since 1994. Which in no small part contributes to my conviction that there is not only a slot for a 3rd commercial consumer computing platform, but also a role for it to be one that hits all the marks the Amiga did in its own era.

Until then, I will be a restless and reluctant user of the available computing technologies.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@OneTimer1

Quote:

Maybe you will get a CD32 Mini looking like this:

There should be a piece of case about that size left from the destructive testing A1200.net did to colour match their limited run CD32 coloured A1200 cases! I still maintain that THEA500 Mini is THECD32 Mini in all but case form factor! Why do that again? Just buy the Mini and put it in a 3D printed mini CD32 case if you want that!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @BigD Quote: BigD wrote: @tlosm It's on their roadmap for Q1 2025 = near future! “Full size�, not “mini�.

Sorry, I must have though A600 form factor = mini or something. My mistake.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

BigD Quote:

There should be a piece of case about that size left from the destructive testing A1200.net did to colour match their limited run CD32 coloured A1200 cases! I still maintain that THEA500 Mini is THECD32 Mini in all but case form factor! Why do that again? Just buy the Mini and put it in a 3D printed mini CD32 case if you want that!

There are CD32 cases already available.





It is doubtful that any of them support a working CD-ROM drive which makes the case more of a nostalgic facade than functional with meaning for the "CD". A non-functional CD-ROM drive is as bad as a non-functional keyboard.

The question is whether an optical drive would still be worthwhile today. The general belief seems to be that optical drives are becoming obsolete for desktops, laptops and consoles. There was a recent poll in 2023 that seems to indicate some users are reluctant to give up their optical drives because of software compatibility among other reasons.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/poll-do-you-use-optical-drives-in-2023.2612119/ Quote:

Do you still use optical drives (tick all that apply)? SATA Votes: 42 58.3% IDE Votes: 0 0.0% eSATA Votes: 2 2.8% SCSI Votes: 0 0.0% USB Votes: 32 44.4% Firewire Votes: 0 0.0% Other Votes: 1 1.4% I don't use optical drives Votes: 18 25% Total Voters: 72

Some conservative users have been reluctant to become dependent on cloud services and would rather have physical discs and cases. Retro hardware like the Amiga also has old CD-ROM software that some users would like to use and access. The media is very cheap and allows to use smaller hard/solid state drives. The CD32, Neo Geo CD, Sega CD and 68k Mac CD often allowed to play CD games from a CD without the need to install the game. Modern games have become so huge that a base 500GiB drive can barely install more than a hand full of games and installing or downloading more can take a long time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/10/31/how-many-games-can-you-fit-on-a-ps4-or-xbox-one-hard-drive/ Quote:

So games run from about 30-50, and we can average them at 40 gb for argument's sake and exclude the idea of DLC. At that size, a 500 gb hard drive will fit 12 games. So once you've got a full hard drive, you'll need to uninstall some games if you want to play more.

There is a big difference between cartridge based games and modern games for a wide selection of games. Optical disks with much faster modern drives would seem closer to cartridges for games designed to execute directly from the optical disk. Perhaps optical drives make more sense for a retro platform/micro-console?

Last edited by matthey on 23-Oct-2024 at 10:36 PM.