@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

That�s a silly thing to say, AmigaONE was releases in 2005, Pegasus in 2004/2003 or something, they are now 19 years old technology, and 20/21 if you�re talking about MorphOS.

Classic AmigaOS 4.1 FE's 68K compatibility is not the same as Classic AmigaOS 3.9's compatibility.

Quote:

talking about a 20 year old system as yet another "Amithlon" or Draco or Apple-influenced.

Apple established its multimedia abstraction layers earlier in the 68K era when compared to Commodore's Amiga 68K.

Quote:

Sound so wrong to me, and also �Amithlon� is modified UAE, not a native OS, does not count as continuation, it�s just another hack.

Amithlon's focus is different from WinUAE.

With Amithlon, "who cares about games" - Bernie Meyer. https://youtu.be/cUcE12W15Aw?t=140

Emu68 1.0 rc3 has improved "on-demand" features for legacy chipset access timings.


AmigaOS 4 has CIAgent which is a CIA emulator. http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=emulation/misc/ciagent.lha

Draco has two CIA chips.

Amithlon has emulated CIA functions.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jan-2024 at 07:35 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jan-2024 at 05:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jan-2024 at 05:57 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jan-2024 at 05:54 AM.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

With Amithlon, "who cares about games" - Bernie Meyer.

If it’s faster, it’s better for games. he should seed who cares for legacy games.

Amithlon, and Emu68 in the same category, as described in video, comparable with how MacOS7.6.x did it. (Boots of a CPU emulator, when using PowerPC.)

MorphOS and AmigaOS4.x is more comparable to MacOS9.
(Native OS, with backwards compatibility)

“Amithlon has emulated CIA functions.”

I don’t know how it compared to what I do in NallePuh, or what was done in CiaAgent.
NallePuh CIAA/B emulation code is not based on UAE or CiaAgent, it was written from ground up. Studding the hardware reference manual.

NallePuh / CiaAgent has MMU triggered emulation, low intensity, does not really affect the overall system performance, you can have it in the background if you want to, it wont slow down the system performance much. Its only when the addresses are hit, there is overhead. (With timers you, set up a timer, and wait for the result, the same with audio, once you written to you wait until sound is done playing.)

If you at looked at the comment section of CiaAgent there is not any list of software it helps, and really hard to find anything that it works with, mostly CiaAgent idea, is useless without Paula emulation, because it’s mostly is in music programs where its used.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Jan-2024 at 09:57 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Amithlon could easily disregard games because you would have access to other cores and other Linux processes that could start UAE. At least in Winuae I can pull windows apps, I would assume that it would be rather trivial to do it.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: If it’s faster, it’s better for games. he should seed who cares for legacy games.

Unlike the Apple ecosystem, the Amiga NG ecosystem doesn't have a strong 3rd party software vendor ecosystem that can replace the significant number of legacy software.

Bernie Meyer's presentation from https://youtu.be/cUcE12W15Aw?t=140 was about Amiga non-gaming applications.

Amithlon has DraCo AmigaOS 3.x RTG / AHI / CIA compatibility level.

During the early 2000s, I was using a non-linear editing system (NLE) for a non-profit organization on my gaming PC with Athlon XP/nForce 2 with Firewire/ GeForce 4 Ti VIVO (Video-Out, Video-In, S-Video Out, MPEG 2 acceleration). I used Ulead VideoStudio and GeForce 4 Ti bundled Cyberlink PowerDirector NLEs. I use Firewire to transfer digital videos from digital camcorders.

Amiga's major NLE software such as DarCo's MovieShop and Newtek's Toaster Flyer needs specific hardware and they don't run on very fast" plain jane" 68K AmigaOS 3.X.

Amiga's Video Toaster was a major anchor for other Amiga-related professional apps.

Standalone MPEG-2 accelerator add-on card was killed by gaming GPUs with built-in MPEG-2 accelerators.

The majority of the Newtek Amiga-Toaster software stack needs Toaster-specific hardware.

Both Amithlon and Amiga NG solutions do NOT carry over Amiga's major Video Toaster market niche.

My Amiga 3000 was a few years early when I needed a non-linear editing system (NLE) use case.

DarCo's 16-bit Zorro II is semi-custom and not an upgrade when compared to the 32-bit Zorro III. DraCo Bus slots are custom 68040-based 32-bit slots (266 MB/s with 32-bit @ 66 Mhz). DraCo lacks the standard PCI slots.

Workstation PCs have 64-bit PCI-X slots and late 1990s gaming PC has AGP 2X (blow away 68040 bus @ 66Mhz).

PCI 2.1 32 bit has 33 or 66 Mhz mode
AGP 1.0 2X (533 MB/s) was introduced in 1997.

The use case software drives the platform selection.

----
Recently, the non-profit organization gave me the conversion work from 600 hours of audio lectures into transcription and I used AI CUDA acceleration via my older gaming PC's RTX 3080 Ti + Ryzen 7 5800X3D combo. I could have used RTX 4090 which could have halved the AI audio transcription time.
RTX 4080 is about 1.5X faster when compared to RTX 3080 Ti.
RTX 4090 is about 2.0X faster when compared to RTX 3080 Ti.

My gaming PCs are faster than the typical office PCs.

The use case pattern is repeated.

Again, the use case software drives the platform selection.

Quote:

Amithlon, and Emu68 in the same category, as described in video, comparable with how MacOS7.6.x did it. (Boots of a CPU emulator, when using PowerPC.)

Against Amithlon, the major difference is that Emu68 respected the C= Amiga chipset legacy with on-demand "slow-mo" features.

Apollo-Core's 68080 has on-demand "slow-mo" features. Apollo-Core used WHDLoad's startup process to trigger slow-mo features.

----
1. Apple's abstraction layers during the 68K era and matured when it shifted towards PowerPC.

2. During Apple's 68K-toPPC shift, MacO's 3rd party vendors were in a strong corporate position to port existing software into the PPC version.

Escom is only interested in the Commodore brand while AMIGA Technologies GmbH is relatively lightweight.

CSG (Commodore Semiconductor Group) group can fabricate Commodore chipsets and management buyout performed and evolved into GMT Microelectronics.

GMT Microelectronics was defunct in 2001. Should have relocated the fabrication equipment out of Pennsylvania.


Quote:

MorphOS and AmigaOS4.x is more comparable to MacOS9. (Native OS, with backwards compatibility)

Words are cheap. I know the compatibility difference between AmigaOS 4.1 FE PowerPC and AmigaOS 3.9 68K.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jan-2024 at 06:48 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jan-2024 at 06:14 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jan-2024 at 06:11 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jan-2024 at 06:04 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jan-2024 at 05:52 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jan-2024 at 05:33 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@pixie

Quote:

Amithlon could easily disregard games because you would have access to other cores and other Linux processes that could start UAE. At least in Winuae I can pull windows apps, I would assume that it would be rather trivial to do it.

Uh, no.

There wasn't much of linux in Amithlon. Think of Linux as a hypervisor, which doesn't really have any job other than to provide resources to a single VM. In particular, in Amithlon, almost all of the RAM was fully under AmigaOS control, and completely unavailable to Linux. And what was there was in places rather mutilated. For example, because HPET timers were still the exception rather than the norm, the 8254 timer interrupt was heavily modified and abused in the service of CIA emulation; Heck, even the whole PCI space got shifted on startup to the decidedly-no-standard 2GB...3GB range, so it would not conflict with some fixed addresses on the Amiga side.

Also, keep in mind that Amithlon was released 22+ years ago. "Other cores" were simply not a thing back then (even though one of my development machine was a very rare Dual-Celeron-300 hack), and IIRC, I went to great lengths to make sure that things were actually still useful on a 32MB (yes, megabytes) machine.

So no, running Linux OpenOffice, or TuxRacer, or emacs, was not something that was possible. And anybody who'd have wanted to do that wasn't the target audience, anyway.

Last edited by umisef on 27-Jan-2024 at 02:25 PM.
Last edited by umisef on 27-Jan-2024 at 02:24 PM.

@umisef

I see, thanks for the clarification. One thing that might be done, albeit not as transparently, with a bit of care one might dual boot, either to amithlon or to linux uae/windows winuae. And if both shared the same amiga hd one could either play amiga games or do productivity stuff in a PC.
I extrapolated too much from actual tech, I reckon

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@Hammer

I agree it won’t be able to use all API your referring too, but even so most P96/CGX+AHI games did not, porting over old MacOS7.x.x or MSDOS games, or early Win95 games, many old MSDOS games looks better on VGA then do on AGA or OCS, simply because videos where cut out, voice was cut, color was cut, frames was cut in animations, all to make it so small it can fit on floppy disks.

"legion of karanda" is perfect example of this.
And the old MSDOS game
"The Legend of Kyrandia: Malcolm's Revenge" that we never got on Amiga.
"UFO enemy unknown 2"

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@pixie

Quote:

One thing that might be done, albeit not as transparently, with a bit of care one might dual boot, either to amithlon or to linux uae/windows winuae. And if both shared the same amiga hd one could either play amiga games or do productivity stuff in a PC.

We did all this at the tlme, no worries.

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@pixie

Quote:

with a bit of care one might dual boot, either to amithlon or to linux uae/windows winuae. And if both shared the same amiga hd

One caveat to that approach was that Windows 9x (or was it just 95? So long ago...) had a habit of corrupting disks it did not understand, so any Windows9x boot would make an actual Amiga disk in the same PC unreadable-to-AmigaOS.

Fortunately, the corruption was predictable and minor, and best of all, fully reversible, so on startup, Amithlon would check all disks it could find and, if necessary, silently fix the damage.

However, as real Amigas don't do that, it was important to not move a disk from a PC into a real Amiga when the most recent boot had been a Windows one.

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: even though one of my development machine was a very rare Dual-Celeron-300 hack

I had one of those dual socket Celeron hacks running on an Abit motherboard.
Man, Abit used to make some really cool motherboards.
Afterwards I upgraded to a dual socket PIII 800, but then the Athlon MP came out and my dual socket days for daily driver computing were over.
Well, almost over. I did end up running a Hackintosh on a dual socket Xeon for a few years up until 2019.

Good times.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Hammer I agree it won�t be able to use all API your referring too, but even so most P96/CGX+AHI games did not, porting over old MacOS7.x.x or MSDOS games, or early Win95 games, many old MSDOS games looks better on VGA then do on AGA or OCS, simply because videos where cut out, voice was cut, color was cut, frames was cut in animations, all to make it so small it can fit on floppy disks. "legion of karanda" is perfect example of this. And the old MSDOS game "The Legend of Kyrandia: Malcolm's Revenge" that we never got on Amiga. "UFO enemy unknown 2"

FYI, X-COM: Terror from the Deep was released on MS-DOS in 1995 and on Windows 9x in 1998.

PC ecosystem has strong 3rd party software companies that displaced most of the MS-DOS games.

From Windows 95 to Windows XP (NT 5.1, released in 2001), about 5 years are needed for the transition.

OpenXcom is an open-source re-implementation of the first game in the series intended to fix all the bugs and enable modding.

OpenApoc is a similar open-source project for X-COM: Apocalypse (XCOM 3).

Fast 68K/RTG/AHI should be able to run OpenApoc.

Major retro PC game ports to 68K/RTG AmigaOS have reduced my retro Shapeshifter (MacOS 68K).

Last edited by Hammer on 30-Jan-2024 at 04:01 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

The problem with 64 bit code is that it is larger most of the time while moving or calculating on 64 bits is only advantageous some of the time. Most of the time, the same operations are done with twice as much data which takes twice as much space in memory. Some ISAs allow 32 bit and 64 bit sizes giving the option to use 32 bit to gain the smaller data advantages of 32 bit but it is important to avoid partial register writes of 32 bit data to 64 bit registers. The performance advantage of 64 bit over 32 bit is often overestimated. A paper called "Performance Characterization of SPEC CPU2006 Integer Benchmarks on x86-64 Architecture" found less than a 1% performance gain in the SPEC CPU2000 int benchmark and a 7% performance gain in the SPEC CPU2006 int benchmark with 64 bit vs 32 bit compiled code on a x86-64 64 bit CPU. It looks like the SPEC CPU2006 int benchmark was changed to better support 64 bit code. The x86-64 code has 16 GP registers vs 8 GP registers in x86 code but x86-64 code is larger by 21% in the case of the SPEC CPU2006 benchmark. A 7% performance gain at the expense of 21% code size isn't bad but another paper showed a 4.4% int performance gain on SPEC CPU2000 from 16 GP registers instead of 8 GP registers so perhaps less than 3% 64 bit performance gain at the expense of 21% larger code ("Performance Characterization of the 64-bit x86 Architecture from Compiler Optimizations� Perspective"). A naive recompile of code to 64 bit can easily result in an overall loss in performance. There is code that more than doubles performance with 64 bit code and more modern high end hardware can handle 64 bit code better without as much slowdown but 64 bit is not some magic bullet for performance. It mainly gives more than 4GiB of addressing with an increased hardware cost.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1384/5
IA-32 vs X64 on Athlon 64 3500+

Wolfenstein Enemy Territory (higher is better)
SuSE 9.1
64 bit = 40.2 fps
32 bit = 37.3 fps

Windows XP SP1
64 bit = 54.5 fps
32 bit = 42.5 fps

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1384/6
MySQL 4.0.2d Test Select (less is better)
SuSE 9.1
64 bit = 215
32 bit = 289

Windows XP SP1
64 bit = 259
32 bit = 264

Major gains with X64 Linux and X64 MySQL.

-----------
https://wccftech.com/avx-512-rpcs3-playstation-3-emulator-do-wonders-together-30-performance-boost-over-cpus-with-avx2/

32 register model AVX-512 vs 16 register model AVX2 on early AVX-512 enabled Intel Core i9-12900K CPU
[i] switching from AVX2 to AVX-512, you get a 30% performance boost [i]


PlayStation 3's games are designed with up to 128 registers and there's a performance boost on X64's 32-register model AVX-512 despite a register renaming hardware workaround.


----------------

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221474563_Performance_Characterization_of_SPEC_CPU2006_Integer_Benchmarks_on_x86-64_Architecture
AMD K8 microarchitecture.

Speedup of 64-bit mode over 32-bit mode
mcf = -26.35% (larger memory footprint due to 64-bit long and pointers)
hmmer = 34.35% (more registers in 64-bit mode)
libquantum = 35.35% (more registers in 64-bit mode)
h264ref = 35.35% (more registers in 64-bit mode)
xalancbmk = -13.65% (larger memory footprint due to 64-bit pointers)

Five SPEC CPU 2006 integer benchmarks showed significant performance differences.

------------------
For Syncthing use case.

AMD A6-4400M (Piledriver architecture)

x86-32
INFO: Single thread SHA256 performance is 44 MB/s using crypto/sha256 (43 MB/s using minio/sha256-simd).
INFO: Hashing performance is 38.21 MB/s

x86-64
INFO: Single thread SHA256 performance is 70 MB/s using minio/sha256-simd (59 MB/s using crypto/sha256).
INFO: Hashing performance is 64.51 MB/s

75% improvement on AMD A6-4400M using crypto/sha256.

--

AMD Ryzen 4350G (Zen 2 architecture)

Syncthing v1.13.1 x86-32
INFO: Single thread SHA256 performance is 268 MB/s using crypto/sha256 (264 MB/s using minio/sha256-simd).
INFO: Hashing performance is 235.24 MB/s

Syncthing v1.13.1 x86-64
INFO: Single thread SHA256 performance is 1909 MB/s using minio/sha256-simd (470 MB/s using crypto/sha256).
INFO: Hashing performance is 1085.84 MB/s

712% improvement on Ryzen 4350G using crypto/sha256.

The performance boost is also dependent on the microarchitecture's implementation.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Feb-2024 at 06:57 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

X64 Linux

Syntax error.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer Quote: X64 Linux Syntax error.

SuSE is a Linux distro that is available for IA-32 and X64 versions.

Fedora Core 2 MySQL 4.0.2d Test Select, less is better
64 bit = 207 seconds
32 bit = 239 seconds

For this use case, the X64 version has a performance advantage.

Last edited by Hammer on 02-Feb-2024 at 01:17 AM.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)