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      /  Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
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bhabbott 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 6-Dec-2023 21:00:08
#241 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 316
From: Aotearoa

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Do you know that the Commodore 128 sold the same amount of machines with a single variant and in much less years?


Commodore 128
Quote:
While the C128 sold a total number of 4 million units between 1985 and 1989, its popularity paled in comparison to that of its predecessor. One explanation for these lower sales numbers may be because the C64 was sold to people primarily interested in video games, which the more expensive C128 didn't add much value towards improving...

After Commodore raised the price of the 64 for the first time by introducing the redesigned 64C in 1986, its profit from each 64C sold was reportedly much greater than that from the C128...

But ultimately the C128 could not compete with the new 16/32-bit systems, which outmatched it and the rest of its 8-bit generation in nearly every aspect. When the C128(D/DCR) was discontinued in 1989, it was reported to cost nearly as much to manufacture as the Amiga 500, even though the C128D had to sell for several hundred dollars less

According to Dr. Peter Kittel, who worked for Commodore Germany until the end, a total of 5,292,200 Amigas were sold world wide. In Germany a total of 1,081,000 A500s were sold, compared to 284,300 C128s.

The C128 was sold from 1985 to 1989, 4 years. The A500 was sold from 1987 to 1991, 4 years. That's not 'much less years' for the C128.

My only experience with the C128 was when a customer brought a recently purchased one back to the shop where I bought my A1000 in 1987, complaining of 'jail bars'. As I was a friend of the shop owner I offered to take a look at it over the weekend to see if the 'fault' could be repaired. I determined that the interference was coming from inside the VIC chip and nothing could be done about it. The customer left with a brand new C64 and the difference in cash.

Last edited by bhabbott on 06-Dec-2023 at 09:14 PM.
Last edited by bhabbott on 06-Dec-2023 at 09:10 PM.
Last edited by bhabbott on 06-Dec-2023 at 09:02 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 7-Dec-2023 6:01:50
#242 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3530
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
ECS was good enough.
In ESC times games were better on Amiga than on affordable pc.

True. However there was a perception among Amiga fans that ECS was not enough, since it had fewer bitmap colors than VGA. Bad ports from other platforms reinforced this view.

In a previous post I showed that many early VGA games touted as being superior had no more colors than the Amiga was capable of, and some had the same or even less colors than their Amiga counterparts.

Again with this propaganda? Another parrot which is repeating the same stuff to... THE parrot of the forum.

Obviously no! Plenty of games which I've reported had MUCH MORE COLOURS of the Amiga versions (if there was a corresponding one).
Quote:
But PC EGA and CGA games generally looked pretty awful,

CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! Mr. Obvious...
Quote:
so PC users (rightly) considered VGA to be much better in comparison. This made Amiga fans feel inadequate because their 'superior' machine had fewer colors. Never mind all the other things that contributed to the Amiga having better games, it was only what it didn't have that they wrung their hands over.

Never mind to open a VGA (and, before that, an EGA one) hardware manual and check what features were supported by the hardware?

I don't think that you have done it, even after some time ago I've listed all of them. Are you aging badly?
Quote:
Quote:
It was AGA that made Commodore bankrupt.
No chunky pixels in AGA and rest is history.

This is ahistorical. Before 3D texture mapped games became popular chunky pixels weren't an issue,

Wrong: it always depends on the games.

In fact, there were 3D games without textures (at most using some pattern for simulating more colours or shadows) before the texture mapping technique was used, and on ALL of them a packed/chunky pixel format would have been a GREAT benefit.

I've covered this on my long list of "planar vs packed" series of articles. It's in Italian but it can easily translated with DeepL, Google Translate, etc.
Quote:
and weren't even relevant for less than 256 colors.

Why? Because you stated it?
Quote:
3D games also required a very fast CPU (66MHz 486 recommended for Doom) which most Amigas didn't have.

Wrong again. Take a look at Flashback: its PC port worked well even on PCs with just an 8086, because it was very well optimized.

There's an history / article about this, which was shared here or on EAB: search it and learn something.
Quote:
Doom was released on the PC in December 1993, more than a year after AGA. Even if AGA had chunky pixels it was unlikely to get a Doom port before April 1994 when Commodore went bankrupt. It certainly wouldn't have saved them.

Of course: too many wrong decisions by Commodore's management AND engineers. As usual...
Quote:
As for AGA itself, most fans agree that far from making Commodore bankrupt, it helped stave it off. If only AGA had been released a little earlier Commodore might have lasted a while longer.

It would have only prolonged the agony...
Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Do you know that the Commodore 128 sold the same amount of machines with a single variant and in much less years?


Commodore 128
Quote:
While the C128 sold a total number of 4 million units between 1985 and 1989, its popularity paled in comparison to that of its predecessor. One explanation for these lower sales numbers may be because the C64 was sold to people primarily interested in video games, which the more expensive C128 didn't add much value towards improving...

After Commodore raised the price of the 64 for the first time by introducing the redesigned 64C in 1986, its profit from each 64C sold was reportedly much greater than that from the C128...

But ultimately the C128 could not compete with the new 16/32-bit systems, which outmatched it and the rest of its 8-bit generation in nearly every aspect. When the C128(D/DCR) was discontinued in 1989, it was reported to cost nearly as much to manufacture as the Amiga 500, even though the C128D had to sell for several hundred dollars less

According to Dr. Peter Kittel, who worked for Commodore Germany until the end, a total of 5,292,200 Amigas were sold world wide. In Germany a total of 1,081,000 A500s were sold, compared to 284,300 C128s.

The C128 was sold from 1985 to 1989, 4 years. The A500 was sold from 1987 to 1991, 4 years. That's not 'much less years' for the C128.

Did I read it right, or the C128 sold 4 millions of machines in 4 years and the Amiga 500 only one in the same amount of time?

Then my sentence is still correct, even restricting it to a single Amiga model.

Overall, yes, the C128 one million less machines of what I was recalling. It happens: I'm also aging...
Quote:
My only experience with the C128 was when a customer brought a recently purchased one back to the shop where I bought my A1000 in 1987, complaining of 'jail bars'. As I was a friend of the shop owner I offered to take a look at it over the weekend to see if the 'fault' could be repaired. I determined that the interference was coming from inside the VIC chip and nothing could be done about it. The customer left with a brand new C64 and the difference in cash.

Which made sense: the C128 was almost always used in C64 mode...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 7-Dec-2023 17:50:37
#243 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 709
From: Unknown

@bhabbott

It was AGA that made Commodore bankrupt.
No chunky pixels in AGA and rest is history.

Quote:
This is ahistorical. Before 3D texture mapped games became popular chunky pixels weren't an issue, and weren't even relevant for less than 256 colors.


Amiga 1200 was released 21 October 1992.
Wolfenstein 3D on 5 May 1992.
Comanche Maximum Overkill was released in November 1992.
Legend of Valour was released in November 1992.
(ms-dos version has textures on floor and ceiling).
Amiga 1200 was released when 3D texture mapped games were on top
and should have chunky pixels.
Has not so Commodore bankrupt.


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ppcamiga1 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 7-Dec-2023 17:53:39
#244 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 709
From: Unknown

ECS I like it.
it was good enough.
up to the end of 1992.
games were better than on pc.
it was really nice.

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bhabbott 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 4:37:40
#245 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 316
From: Aotearoa

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@bhabbott

It was AGA that made Commodore bankrupt.
No chunky pixels in AGA and rest is history.

Quote:
This is ahistorical. Before 3D texture mapped games became popular chunky pixels weren't an issue, and weren't even relevant for less than 256 colors.


Amiga 1200 was released 21 October 1992.
Wolfenstein 3D on 5 May 1992.
Comanche Maximum Overkill was released in November 1992.
Legend of Valour was released in November 1992.
(ms-dos version has textures on floor and ceiling).
Amiga 1200 was released when 3D texture mapped games were on top
and should have chunky pixels.
Has not so Commodore bankrupt.

Wolfenstein 3D was a shareware program that wasn't ported to other platforms until 1994. By this time Commodore was already beyond saving. A1200 sales were limited by production issues, not lack of demand. In any case a stock A1200 wasn't fast enough to run Wolf 3D at an acceptable frame rate even if it did have chunky pixels.

Comanche Maximum Overkill is another game that needed a 486 for good frame rate.

Legends of Valour was ported to the Amiga in 1993. It was superior to the DOS version.
Quote:
Bulmer says that "We did the Amiga first as a texture-mapped polygon game like the PC but it was so slow because the maths is a nightmare ... So what we're now doing is ray-tracing the player's view, which is a scheme Ian came up with for the PC but we never had time to do." Programmers for the Amiga port, Graham Lilley and Paul Woakes, implemented ray tracing for the Amiga version to help the game run better, "and solved any problems there were" with it. The One's interviewer notes that ray tracing the 3D scenes is more complicated mathematically, to which Bulmer responds that "It is and it should be incredibly slow ... But it isn't. Now we know why it works but we're not telling anybody else! Theoretically the Amiga version should be playing on an 8MHz 286 PC but using this technique we've developed it's more like playing on 16MHz 386. It's given us a huge increase in performance. In fact, we want to take it back over to the PC for the sequel when we get time." The Amiga's ray traced 3D allows functional windows, through which the player can see into or out of a building. Bulmer enthuses about this feature in the Amiga version, stating that "You can look diagonally across a building, through a window, into a room, out of the window on the other side and into another street to another building and into a window there."


The Amiga version was much better received than the PC version.
Quote:
The PC version was generally poorly received. Computer Gaming World called the game "a stimulating new perspective on fantasy role-playing", but strongly criticized its "general lack of atmosphere" and other "numerous deficiencies", including the difficulty in saving the game or finding food, drink, and sleep. Despite liking the 3-D VGA graphics, the magazine warned that the "grandiose claims" SSI made about the game and Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace threatened the company's "long-standing reputation for quality". It received 2 out of 5 stars in Dragon. According to VideoGames & Computer Entertainment, "Legends of Valor is an ambitious attempt that couldn't get itself out of the starting gate."

The Amiga version was received much better, and was rated 88% by CU Amiga, with Amiga Format stating in their original review, "Legends of Valor is a cross between a Dungeons & Dragons game and a graphic adventure ... the [actual] interface is intuitive and well designed ... there are plenty of nice touches ... if you've met the person before then they'll remember you." In a 1993 issue, Amiga Format rated the game 91%, but in a 1995 issue the re-release was given 86% despite being the same game. Amiga Power continues the same trend, giving the game 88% in a 1993 issue, and the re-release 89% in a 1995 issue.


How could a game that received rave reviews on the Amiga be a reason for its demise?

Legends of Valour (Amiga) - A Playguide Xmas Special - by LemonAmiga.com

Some comments:-

"This was a bit sluggish on the A500 but it was still fast enough to be more than adequately playable"

"I loved this game, ran without issue on my A1200!"

"I played this game a lot on the amiga, for weeks, months even. I pretty much joined every guild including the guild of thieves and reached its upper ranks..."

"On the PC version the food in the stores has no animations, not like on amiga..."

The truth is, any 3D game that needed chunky pixels for good performance probably needed a fast CPU anyway, and then C2P wasn't much of an issue (eg. a 50MHz A1200 matches the frame rate of a 40MHz 386DX when running Doom). The A4000 was fast enough, but cost the same as a name-brand 486 so was outside the budget of most Amiga fans. Since the PC got the latest games first and they might never be ported to the Amiga, if you had the money a PC was the better choice. This had nothing to do with chunky pixels. It had to do with the PC attracting developers because it had 90% of the market, and was the standard for 'serious' use too so you could justify the expense because it wasn't 'just' a gaming machine.

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agami 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 5:38:30
#246 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1617
From: Melbourne, Australia

@bhabbott

You patient patient person.

ppcamiga1 is only capable of communicating in platitudes, and can only deal with the world at large by boiling complex problems into singular issues, and often incorrectly.

I know he is in Poland, but he would be right at home in the Appalachian Mountains of Alabama: Making moonshine and blaming China for the actions of his local government.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 6:11:48
#247 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3530
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@bhabbott

It was AGA that made Commodore bankrupt.
No chunky pixels in AGA and rest is history.

Amiga 1200 was released 21 October 1992.
Wolfenstein 3D on 5 May 1992.
Comanche Maximum Overkill was released in November 1992.
Legend of Valour was released in November 1992.
(ms-dos version has textures on floor and ceiling).
Amiga 1200 was released when 3D texture mapped games were on top
and should have chunky pixels.
Has not so Commodore bankrupt.

Wolfenstein 3D was a shareware program that wasn't ported to other platforms until 1994. By this time Commodore was already beyond saving. A1200 sales were limited by production issues, not lack of demand. In any case a stock A1200 wasn't fast enough to run Wolf 3D at an acceptable frame rate even if it did have chunky pixels.

Comanche Maximum Overkill is another game that needed a 486 for good frame rate.

Legends of Valour was ported to the Amiga in 1993. It was superior to the DOS version.
Quote:
Bulmer says that "We did the Amiga first as a texture-mapped polygon game like the PC but it was so slow because the maths is a nightmare ... So what we're now doing is ray-tracing the player's view, which is a scheme Ian came up with for the PC but we never had time to do." Programmers for the Amiga port, Graham Lilley and Paul Woakes, implemented ray tracing for the Amiga version to help the game run better, "and solved any problems there were" with it. The One's interviewer notes that ray tracing the 3D scenes is more complicated mathematically, to which Bulmer responds that "It is and it should be incredibly slow ... But it isn't. Now we know why it works but we're not telling anybody else! Theoretically the Amiga version should be playing on an 8MHz 286 PC but using this technique we've developed it's more like playing on 16MHz 386. It's given us a huge increase in performance. In fact, we want to take it back over to the PC for the sequel when we get time." The Amiga's ray traced 3D allows functional windows, through which the player can see into or out of a building. Bulmer enthuses about this feature in the Amiga version, stating that "You can look diagonally across a building, through a window, into a room, out of the window on the other side and into another street to another building and into a window there."


The Amiga version was much better received than the PC version.

And the reason is clearly reported and highlighted on what you've reported: Amiga had the benefit of a much better algorithm / optimization.

So, you're comparing apples to oranges here...
Quote:
The truth is, any 3D game that needed chunky pixels for good performance probably needed a fast CPU anyway, and then C2P wasn't much of an issue (eg. a 50MHz A1200 matches the frame rate of a 40MHz 386DX when running Doom).

Which, again, resorts to the above case, since the Amiga port had some other optimizations.

So, you cannot directly compare the results.

You should have the code with the same optimizations and then we can take a look at the results and compare them. Otherwise -> apples to oranges...
Quote:
The A4000 was fast enough, but cost the same as a name-brand 486 so was outside the budget of most Amiga fans. Since the PC got the latest games first and they might never be ported to the Amiga, if you had the money a PC was the better choice. This had nothing to do with chunky pixels. It had to do with the PC attracting developers because it had 90% of the market, and was the standard for 'serious' use too so you could justify the expense because it wasn't 'just' a gaming machine.

It had to do with chunky pixels as well, because the C2P routine took a consistent part of the execution, as it was reported also on EAB and other sites.

Plus, you "forgot" to mention that the most advanced C2P routines were NOT available at the time, but they were developed years after.

There's no time machine (and never will be), and you cannot move stuff from the future and put back in the past. The past has to deal with what was available at it's time. Dot.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 10:13:43
#248 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@bhabbott

It was AGA that made Commodore bankrupt.
No chunky pixels in AGA and rest is history.

Quote:
This is ahistorical. Before 3D texture mapped games became popular chunky pixels weren't an issue, and weren't even relevant for less than 256 colors.


Amiga 1200 was released 21 October 1992.
Wolfenstein 3D on 5 May 1992.
Comanche Maximum Overkill was released in November 1992.
Legend of Valour was released in November 1992.
(ms-dos version has textures on floor and ceiling).
Amiga 1200 was released when 3D texture mapped games were on top
and should have chunky pixels.
Has not so Commodore bankrupt.


Chunky graphics alone wouldn't solve 68EC020 @ 14 Mhz being gimped by Chip RAM.

1990 Wing Commander VGA needs about 386DX-25 integer performance level PC.

Wing Commander ECS on my Amiga 3000's 68030 @ 25 Mhz was pretty smooth like my 386DX-33/ET4000AX PC clone, but the PC's Wing Commander has 256 colors VGA.


My later A3000 version was shipped with Kickstart 2.04 ROM and 25Mhz 68030/68882 (useless for games) in early 1992. I preferred AGA over obsolete ECS, but A3000 is a dead-end games machine while the 386DX-33 PC clone is SVGA upgradable.

I run WHDLoad WingCommander CD32 on my A1200 with (AmigaKit) 8 MB 32-bit Fast RAM and it needs a higher-clocked 68020/68030 CPU.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 11:04 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 10:35 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 10:33 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 10:21:10
#249 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Australia

@bhabbott

Quote:

The truth is, any 3D game that needed chunky pixels for good performance probably needed a fast CPU anyway, and then C2P wasn't much of an issue (eg. a 50MHz A1200 matches the frame rate of a 40MHz 386DX when running Doom). The A4000 was fast enough, but cost the same as a name-brand 486 so was outside the budget of most Amiga fans. Since the PC got the latest games first and they might never be ported to the Amiga, if you had the money a PC was the better choice. This had nothing to do with chunky pixels. It had to do with the PC attracting developers because it had 90% of the market, and was the standard for 'serious' use too so you could justify the expense because it wasn't 'just' a gaming machine.

For the US market during H2 1993, Gateway 2000's 486SX-33 PC's asking price is like A4000 with 25Mhz 68EC030.

Commodore is not competitive against Apple's Quadra 605 (68LC040 @ 25Mhz) or 486SX-33 PC clones.



https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9306_June_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 72 of 314

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 170 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1494,

4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1895,

Page 128 of 314
Polywell Poly 486-33V with 486SX-33, 4MB of RAM, SVGA 1MB VL-Bus, price: $1250


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9308_August_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 62 of 324

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 212MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1495,

4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1795,



Page 292 of 324
From Comtrade
VESA Local Bus WinMax with 32-Bit VL-Bus Video Accelerator 1MB, 486DX2 66 Mhz, 210 MB HDD, 4MB RAM, Price: $1795



https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9310_October_1993.pdf
October 1993, Page 13 of 354,
ALR Inc, Model 1 has Pentium 60-based PC for $2495.



https://archive.org/details/amiga-world-1993-10/page/n7/mode/2up
Amigaworld, October 1993, Page 66 of 104
Amiga 4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299
Amiga 4000/030 @ 25Mhz for $1599


Page 82 of 104
M1230X's 68030 @ 50Mhz has $349
1942 Monitor has $389
A1200 with 85MB HDD has $624
A1200 with 130MB HDD has $724

The Commodore solution is beaten by the Gateway solution.


Target sales period: XMas of 1993 Q4.. 1993 XMas sales period was Commodore's last chance.

Using IBM's price guidance is flawed since Commodore has very weak corporate PC fleet sales. IBM's market share in 1993 was a minority.

386DX-33 or 386DX-40 with ET4000AX is cheaper than A1200 with M1230X's 68030.

I support David Pleasance's push for an accelerated A1200 bundle games SKU.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:26 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 10:23 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 11:02:54
#250 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Australia

@bhabbott

Quote:
Your list proves my point. All but one of those games (Star Trek Final Frontier) had EGA and CGA graphics options.

Many of those games also had an Amiga version, and several of them have virtually identical graphics. Others have far fewer colors in the Amiga version than they could have, probably because they were ported from the PC EGA version.

Where in Time Is Carmen Sandiego?: VGA 31 colors, Amiga 31 colors.

Space Harrier: VGA 27 colors, Amiga 29 colors.

Fiendish Freddy's Big Top O' Fun: VGA 26 colors, Amiga 29 colors

Battle Chess: PC VGA 41 colors, Amiga 32 colors (visually they look identical).

Steel Thunder: only 25 colors in MCGA '256 color' mode.

Microsoft Flight Simulator 3: only 13 colors visible in MCGA '256 color' screenshot.

Space Rogue: VGA title screen 27 colors, Amiga 13.

M1 Tank Platoon: rear gunner view VGA 67 colors, Amiga 15, EGA 13.

Tongue of the Fatman: 28 colors in VGA title screen.

Blue Angels: 30 colors in VGA cockpit view, 16 in EGA, 4 in CGA.

Mean Streets: VGA 106 colors, Amiga 15, EGA 13.

Indiana Jones: Indy's Office VGA 169 colors, Amiga 16, EGA 16.

A10 Tank KIller: VGA 137 colors, Amiga 22 colors (but looks very similar).

Moby Games lists 100 VGA+MCGA games from 1987 to 1989. But the total number of PC DOS games listed for this period was 1,315. So that means 92% were not VGA+MCGA. For context, Moby Games lists 1,029 Amiga games in the same period. Since OCS beats EGA, that means Amiga games generally beat PC games. So much for OCS being 'obsolete' in 1989!

During 1989, Amiga was the primary target gaming platform and PC VGA had artwork ports from the Amiga OCS. The same problem when the Atari ST's 16 color/512 color palette artwork limits the Amiga's superior graphics difference.

1990 Wing Commander VGA was PC's "Defender of the Crown" moment and was timed PC exclusive. Amiga's Wing Commander OCS/ECS is the inferior version.

PC's Monkey Islands VGA is the superior version while the Amiga version has a reduced color version.

Amiga OCS had cost vs performance advantages from 1987 to 1990, but SVGA clones like ET4000AX were released in 1989. In 1989, my Dad had an IBM PS/2 Model 55SX from work, hence a taste for PC VGA. IBM VGA is slow while ET4000AX is fast.

I played Amiga's Links Golf (HAM mode, 6-bit planes) game on my Amiga 3000 and it's pretty good, close to the PC 386 VGA version. I prefer 256 colors without tricks capability.

The majority of Amiga adventure games weren't designed with hard disk in mind which limits the displayed artwork colors.


HAM mode Monkey Islands would be nice.

Amiga's Universe adventure game has copper-enabled tricks for 256-color VGA approximation, but this programming optimization wasn't spread among the Amiga programmer teams since Commodore didn't own software optimization IP.

If Commodore owned software optimization IP for Elf Mania and Universe and spread across many 3rd party programmers as a turnkey game SDK. Commodore is not Nintendo...

Quote:

Doom was released on the PC in December 1993, more than a year after AGA. Even if AGA had chunky pixels it was unlikely to get a Doom port before April 1994 when Commodore went bankrupt. It certainly wouldn't have saved them.

A few months before Doom's December 1993 release, Doom previews were hyped in PC magazines.

Doom preview screenshots in PC press told PC gamers to prepare for Doom's release.

You're not a PC Master Race gamer during 1993.


Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:35 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:32 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:19 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:17 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 11:58:18
#251 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Australia

@bhabbott

Quote:

Microsoft released Windows NT in 1993. It was way more advanced than DOS and Windows 3.1, and more advanced than Windows 95 and 98 too. So by your logic all PCs not running NT after 1992 were obsolete, until 2000 when Windows XP came out.

Windows NT 3.1 sets the groundwork for Win32 API while mainstream Windows 3.1/MS-DOS has Win32S's Win32 subset.

Win32S on Windows 3.1 allows pathfinder users to work on the Win32 transition.

Microsoft manages the transition from 16bit MS-DOS/Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 to Windows XP.

During my 1997 university year, our fleet PCs ran on Windows NT 4.0 and we were playing LAN-party OpenGL Win32 games.

Quote:

But what about hardware? Intel released the i386 CPU in 1985. That means all PCs produced after that with an 8086/8 or 80286 CPU were obsolete, right? Intel released the i486 in 1989. Now all PCs using a 386 CPU were also obsolete, right? And in 1993 they released the Pentium CPU. Now all 486s were obsolete!

In 1987 TSeng Labs introduced their ET3000 'SuperVGA' chipset, which did 256 colors in 640x480 and 800x600, 16 colors in 1024x768, and 132x44 line text. This instantly made all other lesser VGA chips obsolete, right? And all those games that stuck to 320x200 were obsolete too!!!

No, they weren't. A thing doesn't automatically become obsolete when something 'more advanced' comes out.

The slower VGA chipset from IBM can run the same 386/VGA PC games at a slower performance which gives a taste and promotes PC upgrades.

The trigger point when my Dad trades in an IBM PS/2 Model 55SX (16-bit FSB 386SX-16) for 32-bit FSB 386DX-33/ET4000AX based PC is games and lower cost add-on cards when compared to MCA or Zorro II/III cards. Lesson: avoid proprietary slot standards from IBM and Commodore.

Some bridgeboards enable 16-bit ISA slots for big box Amigas, but they are not C= standard chipset.

With A3000/030 to A4000/030, it's like dumping the entire 386DX-33 class machine with unchangeable EGA+ for another new build 386DX-33 with a fast VGA clone.
Amiga's game console topology doesn't work on expandable desktop computers.

Quote:

So 97% of PC games in that period only needed an 8086? I have an Amstrad PC2086 (released in 1988) with 8MHz 8086, onboard VGA and 640k RAM. It runs VGA games [i]very slowly. But according to you this was the latest technology that made the Amiga obsolete. In the real world we knew different.

It depends on VGA's performance. 286-16 with ET4000AX has A500/A1200 AGA results e.g. Body Blows.

Quote:

However 1989 was the year that 286 sales peaked. By 1990 386 sales were catching up, surpassing the 286 in 1991. This was largely due to the introduction of cheaper systems using the 80386SX (introduced in 1888) and AMD's AM386DX (1991). So 1990 was when the paradigm shift began in the PC world that became a threat to the Amiga's existence. Amiga sales peaked in 1991 and then went into a steep decline as (relatively) cheaper more capable PCs hit the market.

Your minority gaming PC argument is flawed.

From 1987, PC's full 32bit 386DX and VGA standard had a longer time to establish this gaming platform target.

PC Doom 1 and 2 has 4 million copies sold and IDsoftware estimated another 15 million floating copies. Gaming PC minority beats the Amiga install base. The lesson: VHS clone army vs Betamax.

1990 Wing Commander VGA was PC's "Defender of the Crown" moment.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/history/history-1989-annual-report.html

"Intel 386 architecture leads the 32-bit market" - Intel
1986 = 18%
1987 = 40%
1988 = 57%
Source: Dataquest


Quote:

Personally I am just happy that we got what we did. AGA was late, but they still got it out - and the A1200 is an awesome machine. That doesn't mean I am not interested in what might have been, but without the finger pointing and vitriol towards the people who gave us the wonderful stuff we got. I am sick of Amiga fans dumping on Commodore for being so incompetent as to produce over 5 million machines, which were so well designed and built that we are still using them today.

I fully support Dave Haynie's and David Pleasance's attacks on Commodore International's mismanagement.

I prefer Commodore surviving the 1990s culling like Apple or Nintendo.


Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:09 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:04 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:02 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:04:27
#252 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Your free to live in whatever world you wanna do, but in this one OCS was pushing the limits of what MOS could do and any chance no matter how minor took a lot of effort to get it fully working.

CSG has fabricated the Ramsey 25 Mhz 32-bit memory controller.

CSG can do more than OCS/ECS when given enough time. Management's misdirection and time-wasting sucks.

Ramsey's proven 25 Mhz 32-bit memory controller IP could be paired with a faster raster graphics hardware design.

A1200 Budgie includes a 32-bit fast RAM controller.

Anyway, PC VGA port Turrican AGA needs Fast RAM for smooth AGA 256 colors action gameplay.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 01:52 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 01:41 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 01:36 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:33:19
#253 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:

Surely. Like the OCS for systems with 68020+ processors

From bustest benchmark, A3000's 32-bit Chip RAM access is faster than A500's 16-bit Chip RAM.

Quote:

Because, and as I've already stated other times, the chipset has ITS OWN, independent, memory controller.

Could you please tell me when you'll study how the Amiga chipset works?

My point with the Ramsey memory controller is proven mastery by Commodore's engineers which is not pie in the sky.

I support your alternate ECS evolution argument.

Quote:

320x240@256 colours is A LITTLE BIT different (and MUCH LESS demanding) compared to 640x480@256. Isn't it?

It should do both use cases since ET4000AX can do it.

Quote:

Behaviour? Do you know / understand how a 68000 platform (so, not specifically an Amiga) works? I don't think so.

The Blitter is no faster in AGA than it was in 68000-era OCS.


Quote:

Clap clap clap..

I'm supporting your alternative ECS evolution argument with Commodore's proven skills.

Quote:

And? What's the point here?

Exceeds the 28Mhz example and is not limited by 3.5/7/14/28Mhz division.

Quote:

And? What's the point here?

25 Mhz partly covers the ET4000AX's VGA pixel clock.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 01:49 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 01:46 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 14:35:42
#254 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3530
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

Surely. Like the OCS for systems with 68020+ processors

From bustest benchmark, A3000's 32-bit Chip RAM access is faster than A500's 16-bit Chip RAM.

Which is expected...
Quote:
Quote:

320x240@256 colours is A LITTLE BIT different (and MUCH LESS demanding) compared to 640x480@256. Isn't it?

It should do both use cases since ET4000AX can do it.

It doesn't mean that the system would be able to support games at this high resolution.

320x240@256 colours was very common even when the ET4000AX supported much higher resolutions (and depths), and for good reasons.
Quote:
Quote:

Behaviour? Do you know / understand how a 68000 platform (so, not specifically an Amiga) works? I don't think so.

The Blitter is no faster in AGA than it was in 68000-era OCS.

Exactly, but the context was different here.
Quote:
Quote:

And? What's the point here?

Exceeds the 28Mhz example and is not limited by 3.5/7/14/28Mhz division.

On modern systems you don't need to follow the exponential progression for clocks, in order to be perfectly synced with the Amiga chipset requirements: it's enough to be any multiple of the base clock.

In fact, Vampire works that way. But it still has a base PAL/NTSC clock. So, not any arbitrary clock.

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Hammer 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 23:44:16
#255 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:

Which is expected...

It's too bad it didn't have the graphics chipset that could use faster 32-bit Chip RAM.

Quote:
It doesn't mean that the system would be able to support games at this high resolution.

320x240@256 colours was very common even when the ET4000AX supported much higher resolutions (and depths), and for good reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-47q33atbk
A quick video to demonstrate the capabilities of ISA video card based on ET4000/W32i video display controller chip playing StarCraft.

Despite throwing PiStorm32 Emu68 RPi 4B at this problem, C= AGA wouldn't match ISA ET4000/W32i 640x460x16 bit color gaming results.

ET4000 supports Windows 98's 2D acceleration which is PC's RTG solution.

YouTube video shows 1993 era ET4000/w32i Blitter hardware on local video memory with ISA bus.

For my 1996-era Pentium 150-based PC, OEM S3 Trio 64UV+ PCI is relatively low cost and I don't need to recycle my ET4000AX.

320x256 resolution gaming on AGA is sufficient as long there's sufficient CPU or math compute power. AGA wouldn't be sufficient for Diablo or StarCraft.

386DX-33 CPU is the major bottleneck.

From https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=80292
It's a retro ISA SVGA card with ET4000/W32i

For StarCraft youtube video, the retro PC has TX486DLC @ 40 MHz, 32 MB RAM, 16-bit ISA backplane and Tseng Labs ET4000/W32i 2 MB video memory. TX486DLC supports 386 socket.

Last edited by Hammer on 09-Dec-2023 at 12:09 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Dec-2023 at 12:07 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Dec-2023 at 12:03 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 11:56 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 11:51 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Dec-2023 at 11:45 PM.

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agami 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 9-Dec-2023 1:45:00
#256 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1617
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Hammer

Quote:
Hammer wrote:
@ppcamiga1

Chunky graphics alone wouldn't solve 68EC020 @ 14 Mhz being gimped by Chip RAM.

In his mind it would've.

I assume it goes a little something like this:
- Commodore's AGA does 640x480 at 256 colours with native chunky, instead of what we got
- John Carmack continues dev of Doom on 68k and releases it first on AGA Amiga's
- This produces a boon for sales of 030 accelerator cards for A1200's, and the demand for 030 A4000s drives the price down to 486 PC levels
- CD32 + Doom bundle becomes the No. 1 holiday season gift request
- 1994 bankruptcy avoided

So in another way it's not the chunky pixels, it's John Carmack's December 1993 Doom that is the "Kingmaker" in the computer gaming saga.

I suppose in his simple mind it wasn't Steve Jobs or the NeXTSTEP-based OS X which ultimately saved Apple. It was John Carmack announcing Doom III on Mac OS X at MacWorld Tokyo Expo 2001.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 9-Dec-2023 7:15:48
#257 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 709
From: Unknown

DOOM on 14 MHz 68020 with FAST RAM is playable in low detail.
on amiga with gfx card that has chunky pixel.
It was AGA that made Commodore bankrupt in 1994.



Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 09-Dec-2023 at 07:16 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 9-Dec-2023 10:23:56
#258 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3530
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

Which is expected...

It's too bad it didn't have the graphics chipset that could use faster 32-bit Chip RAM.

Quote:
It doesn't mean that the system would be able to support games at this high resolution.

320x240@256 colours was very common even when the ET4000AX supported much higher resolutions (and depths), and for good reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-47q33atbk
A quick video to demonstrate the capabilities of ISA video card based on ET4000/W32i video display controller chip playing StarCraft.

It was nice to see, but the frame rate wasn't smooth.
Quote:
Despite throwing PiStorm32 Emu68 RPi 4B at this problem,

Those weren't available on 1990: don't mention them, they are out of context.
Quote:
C= AGA wouldn't match ISA ET4000/W32i 640x460x16 bit color gaming results.

ET4000 supports Windows 98's 2D acceleration which is PC's RTG solution.

YouTube video shows 1993 era ET4000/w32i Blitter hardware on local video memory with ISA bus.

For my 1996-era Pentium 150-based PC, OEM S3 Trio 64UV+ PCI is relatively low cost and I don't need to recycle my ET4000AX.

That's already too much and too far way from the mentioned context: 1990 AKA ECS time.
Quote:
320x256 resolution gaming on AGA is sufficient as long there's sufficient CPU or math compute power. AGA wouldn't be sufficient for Diablo or StarCraft.

386DX-33 CPU is the major bottleneck.

From https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=80292
It's a retro ISA SVGA card with ET4000/W32i

For StarCraft youtube video, the retro PC has TX486DLC @ 40 MHz, 32 MB RAM, 16-bit ISA backplane and Tseng Labs ET4000/W32i 2 MB video memory. TX486DLC supports 386 socket.

AGA would have been already too little too late even on 1990 with its crappy Blitter: that's the major bottleneck of the Amiga platform, since ECS times.

2D games REQUIRED a faster Blitter for moving more stuff and/or handling more colours.

This was never the case because Commodore engineers had no idea at all about what was really needed for Amiga games...

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kolla 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 9-Dec-2023 10:33:42
#259 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2809
From: Trondheim, Norway

@cdimauro

So let’s implement that then, show what could have been.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga ECS and the deception of: “Read my lips – no new chips”
Posted on 9-Dec-2023 12:22:18
#260 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3530
From: Germany

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@cdimauro

So let’s implement that then, show what could have been.

I've already provided all details. So, please go on!

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