@NutsAboutAmiga

I think he's referring to compatibility with respect to WHDLoad. Since PiStorm is pretty much a whole CPU emulation, whereas OS4 includes a user mode 68K emulation (for the most part), compatibility with WHDLoad installs (which often require low level patches for compatibility) is better on PiStorm.

Otherwise system friendly stuff that uses the chipset, of course, runs on OS4 on BPPC/CSPPC.

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2024 at 10:43 PM.

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@Thread

Can we stop this now? The answer is: there's nothing wrong with PiStorm, but there's a lot wrong with reacting to and then baiting obviously trolling individuals!

Last edited by BigD on 20-Jan-2024 at 01:30 AM.

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@ppcamiga1

The opinion of an anonymous troll doesn't matter… let's move on.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

No not saying that but whats the point of emulating a AMiga on an AMiga As ppc can only run 68K via emulation LOL... Might as well use pc to emulate the Amiga

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@g01df1sh

On WarpOS / PowerUP uses context switching between 680x0 and PowerPC no CPU emulation.

So if like to run 680x0 slowly on a real 680x0 CPU you can do that. if use WarpOS you should not have no problem with WHDLoad.

68K running on Petunia JIT, does not emulate a complete computer, it only emulates the program, the OS is not emulated, and hardware is not emulated, it has minimum overhead.

It’s amazing there are so many opinions about things people have never used.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jan-2024 at 10:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jan-2024 at 10:04 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Petunia is good for system friendly 68K applications. Even on my 603e 240MHz, it was so much faster than than the actual 68040 the same board had installed. I measured up to 10x better performance for some of my own 68K code.

At the time it did make me wonder, if that type of emulation was available as a bare metal solution when the board was released, maybe there was no need to go native at all. There'd have been no reason for the complex dual CPU solution and the card could've presented itself as a fast 68K to the rest of the system.

Exactly what Emu68 brings to the table today (with the added bonus of RTG, etc).

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@Karlos

Quote:

maybe there was no need to go native at all.

its just fraction of native speed,

680x0 does have 64bit or 128bit registers, as well, some code be typed in 680x0 assembler. This means that some features is unacceptable from a virtual 68K CPU.

Sure, we can JIT a theoretical 68090 CPU be able use more of the host CPU that way.



Then you can use exception handler on a real 68020/68040 to emulate missing instructions.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jan-2024 at 08:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jan-2024 at 08:43 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jan-2024 at 08:43 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

its just fraction of native speed,

A worn out and tired argument that never gets any truer with age.

A fraction, you say? Well, 4/5 is also fraction. Unless your JIT is utterly awful, it should be turning in a significant fraction of native speed for scalar code. Less than 80% and you probably have some optimisation to do.

Vector speed is an irrelevant comparison because there's no vector unit for 68K. That's not to say you can't allow for native code passthrough for those highly compute bound tasks where only native vectorisation is up to the task, e.g. codecs and such.

Most code is not compute bound most of the time.

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@Karlos

So 128bit VMX/AltiVec instruction is 128bits you load in 16 bytes in one operation. If want load in 16 bytes on 680x0 you need to do that with 4 operations of 32bit.

that is 1/8 of the copy speed (read & write), or if you’re using 1 x 64bit load instructions on power, you need to use 2 x 32bits instructions on 680x0 that 1/4 of the speed (read & write), so we are taking fractions.

I no expert on what JIT compiler produces how good it is, but I do not need to know, to know its fractions.

Ok, most of the code is not copy code, most of code maybe 32bit, so the perhaps some counting code, or some other silly code, will be the same.

Even Emu68K does not always produce a 1 to 1 instructions some times it takes 2, yes I know what the BS live mips say, but I have also read the code generated from it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2024 at 04:46 PM.
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@NutsAboutAmiga

Some basic facts:

Most code is scalar.
Most of that scalar code is not compute bound.
Of the small fraction of the scalar code that is compute bound, only portion is anemiable to data parallelism.

Exceptions are obvious:
- Block memory operations
- Media codecs
- Graphics operations (which are still better offloaded to dedicated hardware).

I don't really see where the argument that you need to move to totally native for the sake of performance - applies. And in the small areas where it does matter, sure, have native passthrough.

Quote:

Even Emu68K does not always produce 1 to 1 instructions some times it takes 2, yes I know what the BS live mips say, but I have also read the code generated from it.

You don't need to rely on MIPS, just use real world applications to test it. We all saw the lightwave test case example. Raytracing is at the intersection of compute bound, branchy, gnarly, FPU and memory intensive.

Oh, one more thing. You mention the size of data moves as a factor in performance but neglect to recognise the importance of caches in that statement. Even on the 603e, a simple byte copy loop wasn't much slower than an unrolled long copy provided the source and destination were in cacheable memory. Not a big surprise, since entire cache lines are transferred. CPUs only got faster since and memory, not so much, by comparison.

On my i7, the most naive bytecopy or memory fill type loop possible ends up comparable to the most unrolled, duff device structured uint64 sized implementation. The only way to beat it is with explicit vector intrinsics. For example: https://github.com/0xABADCAFE/MC64000/blob/e1e8fc1ededbea2a03d2d654d70726f53090079c/core/src/cpp/include/host/mem/avx2/functions.hpp#L56 - this just about saturates.

Last edited by Karlos on 22-Jan-2024 at 12:00 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jan-2024 at 09:58 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @g01df1sh Are you saying you can't run 68K on WarpUP or PowerUP? or AmigaOS4.1 Classic / MorphOS for BlizzardPPC / CyberStormPPC.

WarpOS/PowerUP doesn't speed up legacy 68K apps.

AmigaOS4.1 Classic's 68K emulator is not compatible with WHDLoad games, Shapeshifter, and Deluxe Music 2.

I haven't tested Deluxe Music 2 on MorphOS for classic Amiga.

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jan-2024 at 04:18 AM.

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@Hammer


Quote:

WarpUP/PowerUP doesn't speed up legacy 68K apps.

But does not stop anyone from setting up a Trippel boot system.
Boot option 1. AmigaOS3.x, boot option 2. WarpOS, boot option 3. AmigaOS4.x.

Quote:

AmigaOS4.1 Classic's 68K emulator is not compatible with WHDLoad games,

Its only because no one has figured out how to do It yet.

Quote:

Shapeshifter

Setup dual boot system, problem solved.
probably more interesting to run SheepShaver if someone has any idea how to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQAf7GII9NY

Quote:

and Deluxe Music 2.

Something that should be investigated, as that’s problem related to some bugs in AmigaOS4.x.
(In any case, how hard can be make a similar program, this program need 7Mhz CPU, I bet we can do better today, generate better sound.)

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Boot option 1. AmigaOS3.x, boot option 2. WarpOS, boot option 3. AmigaOS4.x.

What's the difference between option 1 and 2? Also, PowerUP and MorphOS.

Last edited by kolla on 22-Jan-2024 at 10:16 PM.

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@kolla

Option 1 for puritans.
Option 2 for when you don’t feel like a puritan.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2024 at 08:20 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2024 at 04:43 PM.

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Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Hammer But does not stop anyone from setting up a Trippel boot system. Boot option 1. AmigaOS3.x, boot option 2. WarpOS, boot option 3. AmigaOS4.x.

There's no need to triple-boot when WarpOS only speeds up certain software modules within the Haage & Partner's AmigaOS 3.9 environment.

AmigaOS 3.9 works without PowerPC e.g. AmigaOS 3.9 based CoffeineOS.

Quote:

Its only because no one has figured out how to do It yet.

Petunia userland 68K emulator has a dependency with AmigaOS 4.x.

Phase 5's Blizzard PPC and CyberStorm PPC's tiny install base is a larger concern.

Quote:

Setup dual boot system, problem solved.

That's only IF there's compelling PowerPC AmigaOS 4.x software.

Quote:

probably more interesting to run SheepShaver if someone has any idea how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQAf7GII9NY

I'm aware of SheepShaver, but a certain PowerPC SKU doesn't have a standard PowerPC FPU.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jan-2024 at 01:02 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

WarpUP/PowerUP doesn't speed up legacy 68K apps.

That’s a strange statement, as that was the main purpose of PowerUP and WarpUP, accelerated datatypes, mpega.library, plugins and modules for various programs etc.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer Quote: WarpUP/PowerUP doesn't speed up legacy 68K apps. That’s a strange statement, as that was the main purpose of PowerUP and WarpUP, accelerated datatypes, mpega.library, plugins and modules for various programs etc.

WarpOS/PowerUP's software is PPC-complied programs, hence they are NOT 68K.

Emu68's approach doesn't need special PPC-compiled modules.

There's a reason why the WarpOS/PowerUP approach ARM-based A314 project is less successful when compared to PiStorm.

There are two major ARM-based open-source projects for the classic Amiga i.e. PiStorm and A314.

Warp 1260 includes a 400MHz ARM co-processor.

The key difference between A314 and Phase 5's Blizzard PPC is that A314 placed its ARM-based RPi SoC's interface on the Chip RAM side while Blizzard PPC is interfaced via the Fast RAM side.

The close source Warp 1260's 400MHz ARM co-processor is on the Fast RAM side.

Both Warp 1260 and Blizzard PPC have Motorola 68K CPU, non-68K RISC CPUs as coprocessors on the Fast RAM side, and RTG.

Apollo-Core's success was due to speeding up the existing 68K with SAGA RTG and C= Amiga chipset compatibility.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jan-2024 at 01:29 AM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jan-2024 at 01:09 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jan-2024 at 01:09 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jan-2024 at 01:08 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

WarpOS/PowerUP's software is PPC-complied programs, hence they are NOT 68K.

You wrote “apps” not “software”, so stick with applications and not the more general “software”. An example can be MultiView, an “app”, which is fully 68k. And MultiView can use datatype libraries that are compiled for PowerPC. Iirc, the OS3.9 picture.datatype detects WarpUP and use powerpc if available - it’s still 68k as well. With PowerUP and WarpUP, the PPC was mostly a quirky co-processor sharing the ram address space with the 68k.

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@Hammer

Quote:

I'm aware of SheepShaver, but a certain PowerPC SKU doesn't have a standard PowerPC FPU.

I think to run PowerPC code hosted on AmigaOS4.1, we might need to use JIT, just to move the read and writes into a safe space, any illegal instructions or register conflicts can also be handled at the same time.

the first PowerMac used really old 601, 603/ 604 and 74xx CPU’s some of the same CPU’s are also used in the AmigaONE models, also consider this WarpOS programs works on AmigaOS4.1, and this programs where also not written for AmigaOS4.1, G5 is a similar CPU to the Pa-Semi CPU in the X1000.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jan-2024 at 07:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jan-2024 at 07:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jan-2024 at 07:28 PM.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer Quote: WarpOS/PowerUP's software is PPC-complied programs, hence they are NOT 68K. You wrote “apps” not “software”, so stick with applications and not the more general “software”. An example can be MultiView, an “app”, which is fully 68k. And MultiView can use datatype libraries that are compiled for PowerPC. Iirc, the OS3.9 picture.datatype detects WarpUP and use powerpc if available - it’s still 68k as well. With PowerUP and WarpUP, the PPC was mostly a quirky co-processor sharing the ram address space with the 68k.

WarpOS/PowerUP's software coverage is narrower when compared to the PiStorm-Emu68 method.

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