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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 23:26:44
#221 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4416
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@OlafS25

It was the idea, but it was dropped pretty quickly. And to be clear I don't think OS4 / MOS do compete with modern OS and to he honest, why should they?

Last edited by Karlos on 15-Feb-2024 at 11:27 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 23:54:56
#222 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4416
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:
No matter if it is actually the real thing


I didn't say anything about Vampires. I just asked about potential sales of a 68K backport in general.

Are you implying by the above that AmigaOS running on 68K is not "the real thing" ?

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matthey 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 1:29:20
#223 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2085
From: Kansas

geen_naam Quote:

The Vampire crowd sold allegedly 10k units running a port of Aros.
That tells me that the classic crowd will buy about anything.


Only 10k units? That is a tiny percentage of 68k Amiga users. What about the hundreds of thousands of THEA500 Mini units sold with no Workbench, no Amiga branding and only ARM Cortex-A53 performance for 68k and Amiga chipset emulation?

geen_naam Quote:

So it is "safe" to say OS4 68k will sell as well as an Amiga condom with a boingball on top.

No matter if it is actually the real thing.

But they can also call it Os3.2 and gradually backport os4 visual features.


Judging by Hyperion sales revenue which turned around Hyperion's financial situation, 68k AmigaOS 3.2 has likely sold tens of thousands of copies. There are 68k Amiga users like me that refuse to buy a copy on moral grounds. There are 68k Amiga users that are waiting for the court cases to resolve or waiting for it to be available for free as Michele and Ben agreed to before Ben backed out. There may be demand for a hundred thousand copies or more. PPC AmigaOS 4 left Hyperion deep in debt while 68k AmigaOS 3 has not only kept them alive but made Hyperion healthy.

The 68k Amiga products don't even offer good value yet products are selling in tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of units. This is just 68k Amiga demand when there is 68k Atari ST, x68000, Mac Sega Genesis/Mega Drive, NeoGeo, Linux, embedded, etc. What if there was competitive 68k devices? What if 68k hardware was professionally developed with a 68k SoC ASIC?

Last edited by matthey on 16-Feb-2024 at 01:33 AM.

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agami 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 5:18:07
#224 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1682
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Holly crap. It took me a while today to go over the 3 pages of overnights.

geen_naam is obviously butt sore from the reaming he received by being presented with the fact that his $2,000+ PPC Linux machine is 10x+ more expensive than a Raspberry Pi 4, and yet the RPi outperforms his manhood compensating X5000 at an average rate of 2:1.

He has many issues, but the primary and most obvious one is that he's just a massive dick.



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ppcamiga1 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 6:50:40
#225 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:
Everybody who buys a RPI to run vintage 68k stuff is an idiot


I agree it is so true

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ppcamiga1 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 6:56:02
#226 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Quote:
Are you implying by the above that AmigaOS running on 68K is not "the real thing" ?


it is emulator get lost with this crap
and start working on something that will be worth of use on arm
something that will be as good as android

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kolla 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 7:32:11
#227 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2963
From: Trondheim, Norway

@geen_naam

Quote:
You do not even dismiss the idea!

Which idea was that?

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kolla 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 7:45:05
#228 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2963
From: Trondheim, Norway

@geen_naam

How old was Amiga when OS4 came around?
And how long ago is that now?

To me, OS4 is a rough port of OS3.9-ish to PowerPC while attempting to "bling" it up visually, and with tons of (to me) undesirable fluff and bloat, while at the same time missing rather core components that should have been included. It never really got much better, and now it’s all so long ago that whatever "next generation" feel there might have been, is also long gone.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 7:51:32
#229 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4416
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@Karlos

Quote:
Are you implying by the above that AmigaOS running on 68K is not "the real thing" ?


No, I am implying that it doesn't matter if it is actually amigaos4. You could port msdos and call it amigaos4. You can sell anything to the classic crowd. Utter retards like agami will buy it anyways. 68k all the way.


Wow. Projecting much?

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kolla 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 8:11:12
#230 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2963
From: Trondheim, Norway

@geen_naam

Quote:
The Vampire crowd sold allegedly 10k units running a port of Aros.


No, that’s not the claim. 10k are all Vampire products ever, and only a small fraction of them are V4SA. For the longest time, even the V4SA was sold with a "freeby" Caffeine OS on a CF card, Caffeine being unlicensed OS3.9. ApolloOS is a rather recent approach, and only shipped with recent sales.

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Gunnar 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 8:20:33
#231 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:
For the longest time, even the V4SA was sold with a "freeby" Caffeine OS on a CF card, Caffeine being unlicensed OS3.9


You are NOT CORRECT
Caffeine is 68k AROS based.
Its NOT OS 3.9!

Please not post lies!


All V4 system where always shipped with AROS

Last edited by Gunnar on 16-Feb-2024 at 08:23 AM.

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kolla 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 8:21:40
#232 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2963
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
Everybody who buys a RPI to run vintage 68k stuff is an idiot


I agree it is so true


I didn’t write that, geen_naam did.

As a raspberry pi is _very_ cheap and does the job, why?

Look outside of our little bubble, people buy raspberry pi to use with RetroPi, emulating all kinds of retro consoles - including Amiga and other 68k platforms.

Are they idiots too then?

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Gunnar 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 8:36:37
#233 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Gunnar:
Quote:
To whom do you talk? I never said this.


Hammer:
Quote:

You stated, "Normally code runs around 2 instructions per clock."




Could it be that you not understand the topic?
You seem to think an average of 2 would be bad?
2 is a very good result.


Let me explain you:

Programs are made out of instructions.
A program can have thousand of instruction.

A simple CPU will execute one instruction after the other.
A very good CPU might execute several instructions at the same cycle.
The 68060 can execute up to 2 instructions per cycle but it has severe limit in doing this
How many the 68060 can do per cycle depends a lot on the program.
And varies a lot. I would say that in real live the 060 gets maybe an average of 1.2


The Apollo 68080 is designed as an highly improved 68060.
The Apollo 68080 has fixed nearly all limit of the 060.

The Apollo 68080 CPU can execute up to 4 instruction per cycle.

But for instruction to be executed in the same cycle - they need to be independent.

you can not execute for example this in the same cycle

move.l (A0)+,D0
cmp.l A0,A1

Why can you not execute them in the same cycle?
Because the MOVE will increment the A0 pointer, and the CMP needs the result of this to start
this means the CMP needs to wait for the MOVE to be finished before it can run.

Programs are very often a mix of independent and depending instructions.
This mix does limit how many instructions a CPU can execute per cycle.
Every program has a different mix.

Even if you make a CPU that could in theory execute 10 instruction in the same cycle.
Most programs are not written that this is possible.

Having a Super-Scalar average around 2.0 instructions is a very good result.
To get this average you need to often execute more than 2 per cycle.

Sometimes you can execute 1 per cycle,
Sometimes you can execute 2 per cycle
Sometimes 3, sometimes 4.


This program and behavior is normal for ALL CPUs in the world.
If you post an AMD or INTEL number of e.g. a CPU doing up to 6 instruction per cycle
then this is only a peak value
You will never reach this with average programs.

Many programs might reach an average of also around 2.0

Last edited by Gunnar on 16-Feb-2024 at 09:02 AM.

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Gunnar 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 8:38:52
#234 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Quote:
Can you provide the example code in question? I'm intrigued.


sure

The PowerPC instruction are 32bit and can contain a 16bit immediate.
To "glue" together a 32bit value you need two PowerPC instructions.
To "glue" together a 64bit value, you make a 32bit value then shift it then again a 32bit.
This make 5 instruction total

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Gunnar 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 8:42:00
#235 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:
And this caffeine OS was renamed to CoffinOS?


Caffeine OS is/was 68k AROS based with free Dopus Magellan as Window Manager.

We have our own AROS fork where we improved a lot which we call ApolloOS


Dont trust Kolla - What he said was not the truth!





We always shiped our V4 with free 68K Aros, now with the free ApolloOS


ApolloOS had many improvement over "stock" Aros.
Aros has some bugs in certain areas like Copper handling - that made a number of old Amiga games not run on Aros.

ApolloOS has many fixes here.
And the compatibility of ApolloOS with old games is magnitude better than Aros.

Our goal that we work on is of course to reach 100% compatibilty

Last edited by Gunnar on 16-Feb-2024 at 09:25 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 9:29:34
#236 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4416
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:
I mean for all his flaws and delusions, Karlos would still be all over Amigaos4 when it was available for 68k. He just hates powerpc because he cannot afford it.


I already own two PPC machines. I have no desire to own a third. That doesn't make me a hater.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 9:31:34
#237 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4416
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

No wait, what an I saying? I own three. Easy mistake to make, they're so forgettable.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 10:17:15
#238 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4416
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@green_naam

Since you insist on calling me a PPC hater (to the extent that you started the whole thing with personal insults), I think you should at least have the balls to justify your position.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 11:15:23
#239 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4416
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@green_naam

Since you insist on calling me a PPC hater (to the extent that you started the whole thing with personal insults), I think you should at least have the balls to justify your position.



Take your time.

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OlafS25 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 11:25:58
#240 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

*sigh*

Caffeine on V4 always was Aros 68k based. You think of Coffeine that is based on 3.9

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