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cdimauro 
The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 10:18:45
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

English: Following the bankruptcy of the parent company, some companies or groups of enthusiasts have tried to give continuity to the Amiga platform, presenting new ones based, for the most part, on new hardware.
Some have coined the term "Amiga NG" for such systems, as if they were a "Next Generation", but in reality they are ports or re-implementations that carry the same flaws as the original.
https://www.appuntidigitali.it/22008/the-non-existent-amiga-ng-systems/

Italian: A seguito del fallimento della casa madre, alcune aziende o gruppi di appassionati hanno cercato di dare continuità alla piattaforma Amiga, presentandone di nuove basate, per lo più, su nuovo hardware.
Alcuni hanno coniato il termine "Amiga NG" per tali sistemi, come si trattasse di una "Next Generation", ma in realtà si tratta di port o reimplementazioni che si portano dietro gli stessi difetti dell'originale.
https://www.appuntidigitali.it/21896/gli-inesistenti-sistemi-amiga-ng/

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amigang 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 11:26:28
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2026
From: Cheshire, England

@cdimauro

Well the term AmigaNG really came about from Gateway, when they where making the AmigaMCC and Amiga "QNX" OS. Had it came out that really would of been dropping a lot of the legacy, that when my website started.

Now you could say what came after never had the same ambitions and was just taking what Commodore had left and pushing it as far forward as they can.

For me what makes a Next Generation Amga, is what allows me to still do modern tasks, like HD or higher OS resolution, being able to play modern media, mp3, hd video, pdf etc. Access the internet and play more modern 3d games.

Now a high-end Classic Amiga can do the above to certain levels, I suppose by my rules you can call that a next generation Amiga.

But different system do it better than others, I think AmigaOS4 and AmigaONE X1000 and above can do these tasks even better.

I mean to me now the system that gets closest to my dream is, Amikit XE setup with Rabbit Hole so you can access modern apps on your Amiga desktop, ok it not native and not ported apps, but I think (and i said this before) unfortunately there not enough developers left to port all the needed modern apps, that nothing ageist the efforts, I would love it to be all native and ported and integrated. But I think we have to be realistic with what the community of our size and resource can do.

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OldFart 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 12:12:14
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3062
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@amigang

Quote:
For me what makes a Next Generation Amga, is what allows me to still do modern tasks, like HD or higher OS resolution, being able to play modern media, mp3, hd video, pdf etc. Access the internet and play more modern 3d games.
The system-of-choice for this to accomplish is called "RaspberryPi" i.c. model 4 and the latest, and currently the greatest, model 5. And add some emulator if existent, for playing those games that made Amiga great.

It's a hell of a lot cheaper then anything currently marketed as "Amiga" with whatever pre- or suffix.

What it lacks though, is the Amiga look-and-feel.

OldFart

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Karlos 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 14:15:19
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

NG is just a label, really. I don't have an issue with that as misleading as it sounds to say it.

It's clear to anyone that has any experience with them that they are not generational leaps over 3.x/68K, they are an evolution of the same generation with all the same fundamental limitations.

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Amiga4000 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:15:37
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2006
Posts: 375
From: The Ford Galaxy

The acronym should be referred to as "NGH". Next Generation Hobby.
And I approve the following post of yore.


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hardwaretech 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 22:15:44
#6 ]
Member
Joined: 5-May-2010
Posts: 63
From: blaine minnesota usa

With the price of tiny PCs and stuff like Pimiga 4 with rabbit hole function you could setup a distro that controls other emulators on the host system like Basilisk, sheep shaver, even qemu and VirtualBox and Linux now that would one powerful little system for under $400 for something with a rysen 5700. I have to build one next year just to sell all ready working on basilik and sheepshaver image just need buy little pc for a project after I get my 2 other computers built. No its not next gen Amiga but it a lots of platforms and software control by an Amiga for not much money.

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Hans 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 2:10:38
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5067
From: New Zealand

@cdimauro

Quote:
Some have coined the term "Amiga NG" for such systems, as if they were a "Next Generation", but in reality they are ports or re-implementations that carry the same flaws as the original.

There were grand plans and great roadmaps to take us from AmigaOS 3.x to a fully modern AmigaOS 5. Alas, the road proved rather difficult to travel on, and progress was painfully slow.

One thing that slowed things down, was trying to maintain 100% backward compatibility (both software and hardware) without sandboxing the old stuff. That's like tying lead weights to your legs, and then walking uphill, dragging the weights along with you.

Convincing people to let go of the old stuff is hard too. Want to give WorkBench a modern UI? Prepare for flak from those who feel that anything but the old WorkBench isn't "the real Amiga." They've fallen in love with the old one, warts and all.

Hans

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agami 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 5:27:20
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Amiga4000

A lot can change in 8 years, including how we feel about the things we do with our discretionary moneytime.

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agami 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 6:17:23
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Adding to what @cdimauro wrote in his blog post, I also don't think it helps that people lump hw and sw, in particular OS. They also don't take into account how much they ignore actual sw (games AND apps), and lets not forget other hw (peripherals) and other sw (libraries, frameworks, APIs, programming languages, engines).

So a "NG System" should be hw (host and peripherals), os (architecture) and the sw development ecosystem (libraries, frameworks, APIs languages, engines), apps, and games. After all, what good is NG hw if the os is stuck in the previous G, or what good is NG OS, if the APIs and programing language support are throwbacks to the Windows 9x and NT4 era?

A Raspberry Pi 4/5 is more NG than an A-EON X5000, let alone an Acube SAM460 (all systems sold in 2022/23). So why is it not NG to run AmigaOS 3.2.1 on an Amiga 1200 + PiStorm emu68, but it IS NG to run AmigaOS 4.1.x on a SAM460?

Forget for a moment 64bit support and SMP/SMT support. What modern programming languages and frameworks are supported under AmigaOS 4?
I got that undeutilised Radeon card in there, can I do some ML?
Even open source environments such as AAMP are constructed of old very old versions of MySQL and PHP.

AmigaOS 4 and MophOS are NG operating systems as much as Windows ME is, which is to say not at all.
And the apps and games most people run on them most of the time, and some only recently available, have been around on other platforms for at least a decade.

Last edited by agami on 16-Feb-2024 at 06:19 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 6:48:40
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

@agami

it was ng up to 2015 with working web browser and mpg player
time passed so it is not ng in 2024
new ng lets call it ng 2.0 should be made
with amiga gui and graphics on top of unix
it should be made by szulc, szonwejs, karlos, agami, dimauro
and other morosns that waste time on attack of ppc


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Hans 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 9:35:33
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5067
From: New Zealand

@geen_naam

I don't think the situation is that bad. There does seem to be some people attempting to bully others into following their chosen pied piper, which is one of the least effective ways to get people on-board with your "vision." Does anybody really expect anyone to "join the cause" because you told them that their cause (or pet project) is stupid?

What makes it funny is that retro computing is a hobby.

Mind you, for some people arguing and getting others riled up is a hobby too.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 16-Feb-2024 at 09:47 AM.
Last edited by Hans on 16-Feb-2024 at 09:45 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 9:42:17
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

Again, it's a label.

There's no agreed objective definition as to what constitutes a generational leap for something to be "next generation". Mine is based on the terminology that was thrown around at the start, even before PPC came along, when the limitations of the existing OS were understood and acknowledged by pretty much everyone that used the machine for more than playing games from floppy disk.

Last edited by Karlos on 16-Feb-2024 at 09:56 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 11:42:15
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

and it also funny to see how OS4 fans defend their choice by taking OS 3.1 as reference, a OS from 1992. Of course OS4 is a improvement compared to 3.1, it is 10 years ahead in time, based on 3.9 basically running on better hardware including stuff that was 3rd party in the 90s like network stack, RTG, AHI, USB stack. So you basically compare something from 1992, developed for the chipsets without graphic card, no network and of course no USB ports, That is misleading too.

But the problem is not 68k but what was implemented and integrated at that time. You can add all that with third party components and in Aros 68k you have even all integrated already. You can use and configure sophisticated desktops on 68k like magellan. The only area where PPC has some advantages is 3D because amiga hardware not supports it and using modern graphic cards you have plenty of power, if the OS supports it of course.

Finally it is not important, it is hobby. For most users only 68k is real thing, for some even only the old hardware and of course 3.1. I do not understand why it is so important for you to convince everyone how great your choice (X5000) is and how superior to 68k based systems.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 16-Feb-2024 at 11:47 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 16:07:17
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9598
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Ah, holy fight against enemy of the "ONE TRUE FAITH" (add your favourite Amiga denomination). Too bad you weren't there during the height of Blue/Red war, your posts would have been really entertaining.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 18:59:50
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@pavlor

Yeh… we see it for what it is, high level of misinformation, and bias, its not shocking coming from him, but we are used to it.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 19:51:03
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
There does seem to be some people attempting to bully others into following their chosen pied piper, which is one of the least effective ways to get people on-board with your "vision."


I agree. Karlos instead of attacking ppc should hard work on useful solutions on arm.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 19:52:18
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

but some cooperation is still possible.
one condition no attack on ppc.

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TiredofLife 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 20:05:41
#18 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2005
Posts: 1702
From: Here

Amiga systems referred to as next generation clearly are.
Captain Kirk and crew on his Enterprise would be clearly outgunned by the Next Generation Captain Picard and his Enterprise.

Still basically the same tech but upgraded.
And would still last just as long as the classic crew and Enterprise against the Q.

So there you have it, you can't argue with Star Trek and still consider yourself informed and sane.

P.S sorry for ending the thread.

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Karlos 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 20:56:11
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@TiredofLife

Quote:

So there you have it, you can't argue with Star Trek and still consider yourself informed and sane.




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Doing stupid things for fun...

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cdimauro 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 21:08:39
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
@cdimauro

Well the term AmigaNG really came about from Gateway, when they where making the AmigaMCC and Amiga "QNX" OS. Had it came out that really would of been dropping a lot of the legacy, that when my website started.

Now you could say what came after never had the same ambitions and was just taking what Commodore had left and pushing it as far forward as they can.

For me what makes a Next Generation Amga, is what allows me to still do modern tasks, like HD or higher OS resolution, being able to play modern media, mp3, hd video, pdf etc. Access the internet and play more modern 3d games.

Now a high-end Classic Amiga can do the above to certain levels, I suppose by my rules you can call that a next generation Amiga.

But different system do it better than others, I think AmigaOS4 and AmigaONE X1000 and above can do these tasks even better.

I mean to me now the system that gets closest to my dream is, Amikit XE setup with Rabbit Hole so you can access modern apps on your Amiga desktop, ok it not native and not ported apps, but I think (and i said this before) unfortunately there not enough developers left to port all the needed modern apps, that nothing ageist the efforts, I would love it to be all native and ported and integrated. But I think we have to be realistic with what the community of our size and resource can do.

I don't question if someone enjoy his/her system. My article is more on technical level, regarding the points that I've analysed.


@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Some have coined the term "Amiga NG" for such systems, as if they were a "Next Generation", but in reality they are ports or re-implementations that carry the same flaws as the original.

There were grand plans and great roadmaps to take us from AmigaOS 3.x to a fully modern AmigaOS 5. Alas, the road proved rather difficult to travel on, and progress was painfully slow.

Not your fault. Here the problem is the usual: the post-Commodore management.

They (Bill?) decided to port the o.s. to PowerPC and a port is what it is: nothing really new, which solves the atavistic problems.

A new path should have been followed, but probably OS5 required too much effort/investments for what could be done by the IP owners.
Quote:
One thing that slowed things down, was trying to maintain 100% backward compatibility (both software and hardware) without sandboxing the old stuff. That's like tying lead weights to your legs, and then walking uphill, dragging the weights along with you.

Indeed. Exactly the reason which is bringing all systems to the the same status.
Quote:
Convincing people to let go of the old stuff is hard too. Want to give WorkBench a modern UI? Prepare for flak from those who feel that anything but the old WorkBench isn't "the real Amiga." They've fallen in love with the old one, warts and all.

Hans

Well, then even a 3.1 theme on Linux could satisfy them...


@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@Karlos

Adding to what @cdimauro wrote in his blog post, I also don't think it helps that people lump hw and sw, in particular OS. They also don't take into account how much they ignore actual sw (games AND apps), and lets not forget other hw (peripherals) and other sw (libraries, frameworks, APIs, programming languages, engines).

So a "NG System" should be hw (host and peripherals), os (architecture) and the sw development ecosystem (libraries, frameworks, APIs languages, engines), apps, and games. After all, what good is NG hw if the os is stuck in the previous G, or what good is NG OS, if the APIs and programing language support are throwbacks to the Windows 9x and NT4 era?

Consider that new APIs, libraries etc. can certainly be added on any system. We saw it with MUI, for example.

And you can see it as well it Windows: the 3.0 version introduced the Win32 APIs which were then used on Windows '95 and NT, but the architecture of those new OSes were A BIT different in their execution & implementation (and that's the reason why NT deserves this acronym).


@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@agami

it was ng up to 2015 with working web browser and mpg player
time passed so it is not ng in 2024
new ng lets call it ng 2.0 should be made
with amiga gui and graphics on top of unix
it should be made by szulc, szonwejs, karlos, agami, dimauro
and other morosns that waste time on attack of ppc




@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@OlafS25

I am just saying that amigaos4 is the next generation amigaos. But apparently I've hit a nerve of insecure OS3 users.

AmigaOS 3 is dead and it failed in the 90s. Amigaos4 is next generation dead and failed in the 10s.

"next generation" and with the same issues of Amiga OS 3.1: sure, I believe you!


@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Ah, holy fight against enemy of the "ONE TRUE FAITH" (add your favourite Amiga denomination).

"Holy fight"? Talking to an atheist?!?
Quote:
Too bad you weren't there during the height of Blue/Red war, your posts would have been really entertaining.

That was good then: I don't like neither religions nor pseudo-religions.


@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@pavlor

Yeh… we see it for what it is, high level of misinformation,

Where? Care to quote AND prove it?
Quote:
and bias,

Same as above: where?
Quote:
its not shocking coming from him, but we are used to it.



I'm used to your non-sense when you don't know how to reply: you just talk, talk, talk...


@TiredofLife

Quote:

TiredofLife wrote:
Amiga systems referred to as next generation clearly are.
Captain Kirk and crew on his Enterprise would be clearly outgunned by the Next Generation Captain Picard and his Enterprise.

Still basically the same tech but upgraded.
And would still last just as long as the classic crew and Enterprise against the Q.

So there you have it, you can't argue with Star Trek and still consider yourself informed and sane.

P.S sorry for ending the thread.


Don't worry: I'm still here to tell you that no, they aren't NG. With good arguments (if you've read the article. Which I strongly doubt).

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