it is about equal to 11 gen n100 on Intel, which you can buy a tiny computer with 16 MB a SSD for about $100-200 us on Amazon. While ok for a casual gamer playing basic e-sports titles none of which a1222 can play. Why pay $1200 or more when you can most likely buy a Strix Halo mb and RAM and it has an even better GPU? Not to mention an AI chip. As for amiga stuff you still have an AMIGA emulator or AROS. Oh I forgot you can even run Windows or emulate a mac 68k, PPC, or OS10. and Amiga os 4. I get it If you have money to burn buy the A1222 and live your childhood fantasy, but buying does not make cash sense when Amiga does not even support their last machine anymore. Yes I would have liked to see the amiga never died but that is not what have happen. Until they can release a similar power for the cost I am out of buying an amiga. How can they compete Manying a risc version of their software? Their are now standard window machines running on risc nothing saying they can not run other software.

hardwaretech Quote:

it is about equal to 11 gen n100 on Intel, which you can buy a tiny computer with 16 MB a SSD for about $100-200 us on Amazon.

Perhaps you are talking about 16GiB of memory not 16MiB? Yes, x86-64 SoC SBCs are in the $100-$200 USD price range and they are much more powerful than the A1222 in practically every way. Even ARM SoC SBCs which are in the $10-$100 USD range are more powerful than the A1222.

hardwaretech Quote:

While ok for a casual gamer playing basic e-sports titles none of which a1222 can play.

The nice thing about many of the x86-64 SoC SBCs is that there is a large selection of games which work on them when Windows is installed. How modern of x86-64 games depends on the hardware, especially the integrated GPU.

hardwaretech Quote:

Why pay $1200 or more when you can most likely buy a Strix Halo mb and RAM and it has an even better GPU?

The A1222 makes no sense whatsoever outside of fantasy Amiga Neverland. The A1222 SBC uses a graphics card in a PCIe x16 slot (old version 1.0 though?) so it is upgradeable to a better GPU than some of the integrated GPUs. However, there is no standard FPU or SIMD unit but a funky non-standard bastard PPC combined FPU+SIMD unit that shares the integer registers and isn't supported in the GCC compiler anymore. The PPC SoC used sabotages any 3D advantage that could be gained by using a higher performance GPU on a graphics card.

hardwaretech Quote:

Not to mention an AI chip.

AI is over rated and I believe there is an AI bubble reminiscent of the 2000 dot-com bubble for several reasons.

1. energy hungry
2. fuzzy logic
3. no morality
4. insane valuations of AI related stocks like Nvidia

AI, crypto and data centers could match the energy use of Japan in two years.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/investing/video/ai-crypto-data-centers-could-match-japan-s-energy-use-in-two-years-bannister~2916949

From the video at the above link, a google AI search can use 10 times the energy of a regular search.

AI uses fuzzy logic where there is no right or wrong determination but a fuzzy imprecise estimation that can change over time and has limited uses as it is unreliable. It is not something which can be used in critical programming. AI could decide that 2+2=5. AI has made up complete lies about people and events which is also a problem where moral decisions are important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

AI is not new either as this fuzzy logic is an old buzz word from years ago. There are multiple types of AI and different implementations of it as well. I still see it as more in the experimental stage rather than ready for mass deployments. I'm not a fan of AI specific hardware like a Tensor Processing Unit (TPU) in a SoC. However, SIMD unit, vector unit and/or GPU support of smaller datatypes like 4 bit integer datatypes used for AI is cheap to implement and worth considering.

hardwaretech Quote:

As for amiga stuff you still have an AMIGA emulator or AROS. Oh I forgot you can even run Windows or emulate a mac 68k, PPC, or OS10. and Amiga os 4.

Amiga support is quickly headed to EOL emulation with hardware like the A1222. FPGA based Amiga hardware doesn't offer much value either. When emulation of the Amiga offers more value than Amiga hardware then Amiga hardware is pointless.

hardwaretech Quote:

I get it If you have money to burn buy the A1222 and live your childhood fantasy, but buying does not make cash sense when Amiga does not even support their last machine anymore. Yes I would have liked to see the amiga never died but that is not what have happen. Until they can release a similar power for the cost I am out of buying an amiga. How can they compete Manying a risc version of their software? Their are now standard window machines running on risc nothing saying they can not run other software.

The A1222 is far from the fantasy of most 68k Amiga fans. This is why the A1222 may sell hundreds of units while THEA500 Mini sells hundreds of thousands of units. THEA500 Mini is limited and shitty emulation but at least there was enough nostalgia to invoke the fantasy for hundreds of thousands of 68k Amiga fans at a fraction of the A1222 price.

Last edited by matthey on 09-May-2024 at 01:23 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 09-May-2024 at 01:20 AM.

@matthey

Quote:

FPGA based Amiga hardware doesn't offer much value either.

What?

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@hardwaretech

yet another time
yet another scumbag and idiot
start the same shit again
again again and again

we already have good pcs
every one here has at least one
and dont need another one

we buy amiga because we want something different not boring pc
amiga is hobby price/performance no matter

@matthey

uae outperfom real 68k in year 2000
so what
it is still used

@hardwaretech

want us to switch to boring pc?
give us something as good as windows or macos
something good enough to sell to our customers instead of windows or macos
stop trolling start working

@hardwaretech

Is this a new thread or an accidental post? There's no context in what you are saying? Specs for what?

Sure you can emulate anything but regarding a decent OS4 emulation, there's no online packages or CD software available, that easily installs it all for you.

I'm not sure what childhood fantasy you are referring too. Most Amigans would have been adults in the latter days of souped up 68K and then PPC expansions. I was in my 30's by the time I started using OS4. It wasn't a childhood fantasy for me. It was a way to continue my Amiga experience without depreciating all my work to an older looking emulation.

matthey Quote:

FPGA based Amiga hardware doesn't offer much value either.

kolla Quote:

What?

FPGA CPUs are the value problem and the value declines as the FPGA price goes up.

$15 FPGA 50MHz CPU
$50 FPGA 100MHz CPU
$500 FPGA 150MHz CPU

The progression is something like this although the numbers likely vary. Memory bandwidth is much higher than the original 68k CPUs which improves performance. The low clock speed compared to an ASIC limits CPU performance to below emulation performance.

1GHz ASIC CPU with emulation@25% performance = 250MHz

A 1GHz ASIC CPU emulating the 68k is likely to outperform the FPGA AC68080@100MHz. The A1222 CPU is clocked at 1.2GHz so it has better integer performance, likely even when emulating the 68k. A floating point performance competition may be interesting though. Some logic is competitive in a FPGA like parallel logic and chipsets where SAGA adds some value back for the AC68080. Also, the ACSA is roughly half the price of the A1222 and a more complete system. Neither system has anywhere close to enough value to attract customers outside of the niche Amiga market.

Last edited by matthey on 10-May-2024 at 01:37 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 10-May-2024 at 01:27 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 10-May-2024 at 01:26 AM.

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @hardwaretech Is this a new thread or an accidental post? There's no context in what you are saying? Specs for what?

It's really not that hard to reverse engineer from the comments and their timeliness to deduce that it's in reference to the 1022 in the A1222+.
The AmigaOS 4 computing hardware with what has to be the worst price/performance ratio, it's got the X5000 smirking over there asking "how you like me now?".

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@agami

I could see it was something about the A1222 in the post. But a subject with a partial sentence lead in with no caps made it look like it was intended as a comment and not a new topic. So looked like some kind of typo that ended up as a new thread.

Including the contents which didn't explain what it was about either and launched into something about a mini PC on Amazon. I didn't see how a mini PC relates to an A1222 at all. Except for people who claim both is a PC, which doesn't have the same meaning as it did 40 years go, so don't know why it keeps coming up when it does in places.

Well, the A1222 has suffered major reverses. Good idea, bad timing. Or. Good idea, bad choice of CPU. It does cost getting a board designed and produced regardless. But sourcing a PPC is harder as time goes on and even the PPC used would be obsolete by PPC standards since years. The price/performance ratio was fine when the XE came out. And still reasonable with the X1000. But since Apple dropped the ball and killed off PPC, there's nothing direct to compare them too, aside from other RISC boards now, and so the price/performance ratio has become substantially worse. Perhaps worst for the A1222 is that the 1022 has even been on a router and would have been mass produced for a cheaper price.

Last edited by Hypex on 10-May-2024 at 05:29 AM.

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @agami I could see it was something about the A1222 in the post. But a subject with a partial sentence lead in with no caps made it look like it was intended as a comment and not a new topic. So looked like some kind of typo that ended up as a new thread.

Yes, a peculiar way to title a post and dive right into the body.

Quote:

Including the contents which didn't explain what it was about either and launched into something about a mini PC on Amazon. I didn't see how a mini PC relates to an A1222 at all. Except for people who claim both is a PC, which doesn't have the same meaning as it did 40 years go, so don't know why it keeps coming up when it does in places.

I suppose he logic goes a little something like this:

1. There are things specific numbers (speeds and feeds) can accomplish, and
2. There are things I can accomplish with a specific expenditure (dollars and sense).

1. In terms of speeds and feeds, the A1222+ is pretty weak. Dual core, 1.2GHz, DDR3 RAM, SATA 2.6, GbE, USB, PCI Gen 1 (4 lanes on an x16 slot). Something one would find in a comparative contemporary mini PC, only actually more, for only a few hundred bucks.

2. For the asking price of the the A1222+ board or system, one can purchase quite the PC or even a quite capable M2 Mac mini. In each case, for the same money the person can accomplish way more in terms of diversity (including emulating Amiga systems) and especially terms of time.

So I can see the OP's point: From the specs he was able to look up, it's hard to find the angle where the A1222+ makes any kind of sense. Other than the kind that is non.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: What?

Yeah, what value exactly?

That $100 mini PC will run WinUAE just fine. Actually so fine that you could add all those stupid fake retro extensions into UAE and it would still outperform the not-really-real-real-HW by quite a margin...

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@matthey

of course FPGAs cannot compete with modern CISC processors. FPGA was made for hardware in development. But it offers the advantage that you can create hardware with it and update it without needing change the hardware itself. For retro communities the perfect solution

@ppcamiga1

I will do as soon axruntime including a amiga desktop are available. on linux

Hypex Quote:

Well, the A1222 has suffered major reverses. Good idea, bad timing. Or. Good idea, bad choice of CPU. It does cost getting a board designed and produced regardless. But sourcing a PPC is harder as time goes on and even the PPC used would be obsolete by PPC standards since years. The price/performance ratio was fine when the XE came out. And still reasonable with the X1000. But since Apple dropped the ball and killed off PPC, there's nothing direct to compare them too, aside from other RISC boards now, and so the price/performance ratio has become substantially worse. Perhaps worst for the A1222 is that the 1022 has even been on a router and would have been mass produced for a cheaper price.

Apple could have developed and used their own P.A. Semi PPC CPUs after they bought the business. The first CPU was done and their was modular development to quickly bring out more and higher end CPUs. The PPC CPU designs were good or Apple would not be interested in P.A. Semi. P.A. Semi had customers lined up that would generate cash flow as a unit of Apple. It would have been easy to continue with the P.A. Semi development plans but Apple made a deliberate decision to terminate all PPC development. This was the third time Apple decided not to play the PPC game and killed PPC developments.

1. Apple led on Exponential Technology but then refused to buy their PPC CPUs forcing them into bankruptcy. Apple bought the successor Intrinsity including architects with PPC experience but chose not to develop PPC.

2. Apple abandoned PPC and switched to x86

3. Apple bought P.A. Semi and killed all PPC development.

This is not Apple dropping the PPC ball but more like them deflating three PPC balls in a row with a sharp instrument.

Kronos Quote:

Yeah, what value exactly? That $100 mini PC will run WinUAE just fine. Actually so fine that you could add all those stupid fake retro extensions into UAE and it would still outperform the not-really-real-real-HW by quite a margin...

What is not-really-real-real-HW? Are you referring to FPGA hardware?

ASIC without microcode - non-programmable hardware
ASIC with microcode - programmable hardware
FPGA - programmable hardware
software - programmable software

FPGAs are hardware. They are programmed with a hardware description language (HDL).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_description_language

A FPGA chip is logic in hardware waiting to be programmed which is more like an ASIC with microcode than software. Software includes no hardware but requires it.

OlafS25 Quote:

of course FPGAs cannot compete with modern CISC processors. FPGA was made for hardware in development. But it offers the advantage that you can create hardware with it and update it without needing change the hardware itself. For retro communities the perfect solution

FPGAs are good for niche markets that are too small for mass production. This may includes retro hardware but sometimes ASICs are used when mass production is possible to reduce production costs. For example, the C64 Direct-to-TV used an ASIC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV Quote:

The C64 Direct-to-TV, called C64DTV for short, is a single-chip implementation of the Commodore 64 computer, contained in a joystick (modeled after the mid-1980s Competition Pro joystick), with 30 built-in games. The design is similar to the Atari Classics 10-in-1 TV Game. The circuitry of the C64DTV was designed by Jeri Ellsworth, a computer chip designer who had previously designed the C-One. Tulip Computers (which had acquired the Commodore brand name in 1997) licensed the rights to Ironstone Partners, which cooperated with DC Studios and Mammoth Toys in the development and marketing of the unit. Released in late 2004, QVC purchased the entire first production run of 250,000 units and sold 70,000 of them on the first day that they were offered. Versions There exist multiple versions of the C64DTV. DTV1 (NTSC television type) comes with 2 MB ROM. It first appeared in late 2004 for the American/Canadian market. DTV2 (called C64D2TV sometimes) is a revised version for the European and world markets (PAL television type) and appeared in late 2005. The ROM has been replaced by flash memory in these devices. However, the DTV2/PAL version suffers from a manufacturing fault, which results in poor colour rendering (the resistors in the R-2R ladder DACs for both the chroma and the luma have been transposed). In the DTV3, a problem with the blitter was fixed. Hardware specifications o Core circuitry o ASIC running at 32 MHz internally, implementing 6510 CPU, VIC-II, SID, CIA, and PLA

The C64 Direct-to-TV likely sold more units and faster than THEA500 Mini but a mass produced ASIC makes production more competitive by improving the value. An ASIC can dramatically increase performance and features while lowering the hardware cost. This C64 SoC ASIC was just a toy and didn't try to improve performance where an improved performance and semi-modern 68k Amiga SoC ASIC would be more interesting as there is not much standard hardware and pre-compiled software with the tiny footprint of a 68k Amiga. The Amiga was not as popular as the C64 but other 68k hardware could be supported and there is more 68k software with the Amiga, Atari, Mac, x68000, NeoGeo, Mega Drive, etc. including a huge collection of retro games. Retro doesn't have to be niche as the success of many Mini retro devices selling millions of units have shown.

@matthey

Quote:

FPGAs are hardware. They are programmed with a hardware description language (HDL).

Sure they are, the programs/code used to make them into fake retro wannabe HW isn't.

Quote:

improved performance and semi-modern 68k Amiga SoC ASIC would be more interesting as there is not much standard hardware and pre-compiled software with the tiny footprint of a 68k Amiga. The Amiga was not as popular as the C64 but other 68k hardware could be supported and there is more 68k software with the Amiga, Atari, Mac, x68000, NeoGeo, Mega Drive, etc. including a huge collection of retro games. Retro doesn't have to be niche as the success of many Mini retro devices selling millions of units have shown.

You are confusing 2 very different and distinct markets:
a) people who just wanna play some old games on a cheap&cute device that they gonna throw into the attic soon after
b) people who want to use über fast 68k Amigas (Ataris, or whatever) without the need for SW emulation

For group b) someone will come in and claim that there are 10k+ Vampires out in the wild proving it be a valid market to which I will reply that that market is pretty much saturated.

Back in 89-91 C= sold 7 figures of OCS Amiga (for each year) and when the introduced AGA the sold all the 250000 (give or take) units they could make over roughly 1.5 years before going bust.
In 95 ESCOM made another 200k units only for them to not sell out for a decade. So it's clear that the overall market for that outdated tech was 300-400k.
Vampire aim to create an alt-history late 90s AAA+SuperTi Amiga refresh some 20 years after that did not happen, so yeah market is far too small to make an ASIC viable.

For group a) an ASIC might be viable, but than SW or HW emulation at that spec can be had for $1 (when bought in volume) so it hardly makes sense neither.

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- blame Canada

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: matthey Quote: FPGA based Amiga hardware doesn't offer much value either. kolla Quote: What? FPGA CPUs are the value problem and the value declines as the FPGA price goes up.

Keep your oranges and apples separate please?
Or should I say bananas and strawberries?

"Amiga hardware" is the chipset, not the darn CPU which wasn't Amiga specific at all.

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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: What? Yeah, what value exactly?

The Amiga chipset, in hardware.

Quote:

That $100 mini PC will run WinUAE just fine. Actually so fine that you could add all those stupid fake retro extensions into UAE and it would still outperform the not-really-real-real-HW by quite a margin...

But performance isn't always "the game". The most obnoxious thing about WinUAE isn't that it's emulation, but what it requires to run at all - Windows (or Wine). I even rarely use FS-UAE. Do I use FPGA systems? Yes I do. A lot.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: "Amiga hardware" is the chipset, not the darn CPU which wasn't Amiga specific at all.

+1

And the Amiga OS was the other half of what made an Amiga system.

That said, since AmigaOne systems only have the OS and no custom chipset, shouldn't they actually be branded as AmigaHalf?

Or Amiga.5, or AMIGA / 2

Last edited by agami on 11-May-2024 at 04:17 AM.
Last edited by agami on 11-May-2024 at 04:16 AM.
Last edited by agami on 11-May-2024 at 04:15 AM.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: But performance isn't always "the game". The most obnoxious thing about WinUAE isn't that it's emulation, but what it requires to run at all - Windows (or Wine). I even rarely use FS-UAE. Do I use FPGA systems? Yes I do. A lot.

Plenty way to have some random HW directly boot into UAE to the point where the casual user will never know (or care) which kinda emulation (HW or SW) they are using.
Regardless whether it is the "run Lemmings" or "über fast pseudo Amiga" kind.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada