So we got the name, we debated benchmarks, ( https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45268&forum=2 ) now we look at the games and software and what future title may now be possible on the 68K+ platform.

OS for 68K+
Amikit xe ( pi & pistorm) High end desktop environment
Amibench (a600gs) high end desktop
ApolloOS (vampire)
CoffinOS (vampire, pi, pistorm)

Software only for these platform
Amigentorator (mega drive emulator)
Riva (vampire) video player

Software that greatly befits
Hollywood & Hollywood designer
Lightwave / 3d apps
Web browser
Video player
Shapeshifter / Mac apps
Emulators in general (like pc task/dosbox)

Games only for these platform
Heretic 2
Gorky17
Wipeout68
Jake & peppy (vampire)
Diablo (vampire)

Games that greatly befits
Quake
Doom
In fact Any FPS (duke nukem, alien breed 3d 2 etc)
TFX
Open dune / open Ra
Emulators for games ( Mac games, scummVM etc)

Things I would like to see
Better web browser designed for this high end Amiga

I have likely missed a few, post any title you know of.

So first question, do you think Aminet should have a 68K+ section to their site or create a new depot like os4 & aros kinda done for software that will only run on 68K+ platform.

Second question, do you think Hyperion make a version of AmigaOS aimed at this higher end market?

Third Question, what games and software do you think would be possible on these high spec Amiga’s and what would like to see?

Last edited by amigang on 07-Aug-2024 at 01:26 PM.

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@amigang

Aminet already have the possibility to chose the package by CPU, anyway despite of this, most of the software is already 68k why do you need a specific section?

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@pixie

Nail meet hammer!!!! K'nay!

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@pixie

Well yes, but I was just thinking maybe another filter that single out programs that really need a high spec Amiga to work/run well. Like the examples I list, they can still be in the general 68k filter too.

That’s all I was thinking.

Last edited by amigang on 08-Aug-2024 at 08:27 AM.

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@amigang

For a complete list some stuff is missing or wrong.

In the list of OSes OS3.2 is missing.

Riva is not only for Vampire, only the latest version only includes Vampire support, V0.54 runs on all OS 3.x.

As to the games listed also not true that only for these platforms.

And as someone already pointed out on Aminet you can specify what your upload requires already.

Also Hyperion is already making an OS (OS3.2) for this market. There is no OS which specifically uses stuff like the ARM in the PiStorm, true, or (asides what Apollo does themselves) stuff which uses special features of the 68080.

As to games - the main limit is getting the licences always. Not the technical issues.

@MagicSN

I think some are getting confused with my point. Yes you can maybe get these programs and OS to run on Classic Amiga, but your not going to have a fun time, they will run so slow without a pistorm, apollo card or PPC.

I mean OS1.3 will run on these machine too, but it not really taking advantage of the higher spec Amiga. Thats what I'm trying (maybe failing badly at getting across) and thats kinda why AmigaOS3.2 was not included, dont get me wrong it good it runs on a low spec Amiga, as well as a high spec one and likely much better supports the high spec hardware. But its not just been designed for the high spec Amiga like the other OS have been. If you get me. (in a way Im unfairly maybe penalising you for that :) )

All I'm just trying to do is kinda compile a list of game/software that really need or really befits from a high end spec Amiga, that all really.

Riva i thought was only on Vampire for some reason. so my bad.

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@amigang

A 68k+ web browser would be a top pick for me, and it is a good example of something that just couldn't work on a regular 68k system. Might even have a cut-down experience on an 080 with 1GB RAM.

Let's face it, nobody is running 68k Quake on a a vanilla A500. Hell, I wouldn't even bother with it on my 040/40 A4000.

While I admire what the Apollo Team is doing with 080 + SAGA, they are (possibly out of necessity) advocating "hitting the hardware" with their dev community. Some APIs are supported, but the resources budget has to be managed diligently.

It's really the soft CPUs of emu68 and UAE that are providing very high performance 68k that are just enough to tip the scales toward more portable apps.

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@amigang

That is not correct. OS3.2 runs fine with lower
spec 68k cpu‘s. I think this was also the point why they
did not recompile for later CPUs so that it still
runs on the old hardware.

@MagicSN

Quote:

That is not correct. OS3.2 runs fine with lower spec 68k cpu‘s. I think this was also the point why they did not recompile for later CPUs so that it still runs on the old hardware.

Which is my point!!!!

It great os3.2 runs on all classic Amiga, I dont want to take that away, and should be the aim.

What I’m saying is maybe a a version aimed just at the high end Amiga, designed for hd display, higher quality icons, and features that could only be possible on a system with just high spec. That what I’m trying to saying.

There are many apps, libs, features part of Amikit xe for example that make it too slow to run on real Amiga hardware. That might be a failure of the system and features added. But the aim was to create what a high end AmigaOS can look and do.

Just wonder what a Hyperion version would be like and what extra features could maybe do only targeting these high end computer. I hope you get what I’m saying.

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@amigang

Isn’t that what OS4 already is?

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@amigang

Can you tell me what specific software of OS3.2, which set of libraries that take advantage of that much amount of cpu power available through emulation? I'm really curious, because you make it sound that you need it for... stuff to run faster. It would be quite interesting project to show its potential. A la Digital Foundry! :)

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@amigang

Still it is weird that in the above list you post all
possible 68k oses except os3.2…

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @amigang Isn’t that what OS4 already is?

Yes, but AmigaOS 4 does not run on 68k+

Is this going to be that tired and old argument that if you want the features of AmigaOS 4 then you should get the very expensive and poor value-for-money PPC hardware?

It's not 2011. More than a decade has passed, which even the slow moving Amiga camp can't abide. There is no longer just the old 68k and the less old PPC. We now have a fast growing new tier in between the two: 68k+

The benefit of 68k+, other than its good price-to-performance ratio, is that it is widely compatible with all the previous 68k software, yet it approaches the performance of the lower tier AmigaOS 4 compatible PPC hardware.

Which is why it would be nice to have a category of 68k software which takes advantage of it being 68k + high performance.
You know, like back when one would get the special 020, 040, or 060 version of a binary. Or in the Mac PPC era, when some software was made to take advantage of G4 (AltiVec), even though most other software ran fine on G3.

If Hyperion had money, they could let's say make Amiga OS 3.3 Plus Edition, which is designed to be more like AmigaOS 4 specifically for 68k+
But until they do that, Amiga OS 3.2.x is not in any way optimised for 68k+ and furthermore cannot be optimised without Hyperion providing access to the sources and giving their expensive blessing.

AROS being open source, means that anyone can create a distro for any target spec. Just like the Apollo Team have spun up their own ApolloOS.

Last edited by agami on 11-Aug-2024 at 03:45 AM.

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@agami

New hardware (be it 68k, or PPC) may be appealing to some, but use of clever emulation offers cheap hardware in countless form factors. Eg. with QEMU (and some luck) you can even use PCIe GFX card dedicated exclusively to OS4.

Quote:

Which is why it would be nice to have a category of 68k software which takes advantage of it being 68k + high performance.

SDL/SDL2 based multi-platform ports, replacement engines and emulators - that is a solution for this problem. Start with porting GemRB and you get Baldur's Gate games (which are good, well looking and have great replayability). If you get 68k performance close to G3 500 MHz, you have plenty of options in this regard (just look at OS4depot). You don't even need 3D for most games.

@pixie

Quote:

Can you tell me what specific software of OS3.2, which set of libraries that take advantage of that much amount of cpu power available through emulation? I'm really curious, because you make it sound that you need it for... stuff to run faster.

Well for example I love the more modern looking amigaos amikit xe provides. os4 really was nice. But I also like amikit xe setup which adds mui5, directory opus5, start menu, png icons and other features, all this slows down the performance of streamlined Amigaos, so you need a high spec Amiga.

Also Hollywood designer, maybe I got to use with how well it ran on my X1000, but even on my pi400 it just about runs, which is why I’m going to upgrade to pi5, more so I can also play YouTube or Spotify in the corner of the desktop thanks to rabbit hole. So more power is always nice to have.

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@amigang

I understand, but I have since discover through aminet a full set of software that extenders it well beyond what is expected from a software made in the nineties. Having said that, in some cases with so much power you can also have a 1.3 software take as much advantage of this raw power as 3.* My question was more towards, what does 3.2 bring that amounts to that much more speed? Take Picasso96, from what I know its drivers aren't hardware accelerated, but if they were to be tomorrow, say for the gfx chip of pistorm it would be accessible also for 3.*

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@amigang

Quote:

the more modern looking amigaos amikit xe provides.

Then use it, support it, it’s there already and support is WAY better than anything you can expect from Hyperion.

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agami Quote:

Yes, but AmigaOS 4 does not run on 68k+ Is this going to be that tired and old argument that if you want the features of AmigaOS 4 then you should get the very expensive and poor value-for-money PPC hardware? It's not 2011. More than a decade has passed, which even the slow moving Amiga camp can't abide. There is no longer just the old 68k and the less old PPC. We now have a fast growing new tier in between the two: 68k+ The benefit of 68k+, other than its good price-to-performance ratio, is that it is widely compatible with all the previous 68k software, yet it approaches the performance of the lower tier AmigaOS 4 compatible PPC hardware.

The reason why the 68k+ price-to-performance ratio seems good is because the price-to-performance ratio of the original hardware and AmigaOS 4 hardware are so bad. An ASIC 68k core that only costs $1 USD to mass produce could outperform most of these ARM cores emulating the 68k.

agami Quote:

Which is why it would be nice to have a category of 68k software which takes advantage of it being 68k + high performance. You know, like back when one would get the special 020, 040, or 060 version of a binary. Or in the Mac PPC era, when some software was made to take advantage of G4 (AltiVec), even though most other software ran fine on G3.

Emulation means inconsistent performance, minimal benefit from optimizing and no new performance enhancing ISAs. It is EOL.

agami Quote:

If Hyperion had money, they could let's say make Amiga OS 3.3 Plus Edition, which is designed to be more like AmigaOS 4 specifically for 68k+ But until they do that, Amiga OS 3.2.x is not in any way optimised for 68k+ and furthermore cannot be optimised without Hyperion providing access to the sources and giving their expensive blessing.

Hyperion 68k AmigaOS 3 aims for the lowest common denominator 68000 AmigaOS for EOL emulation. If Hyperion had money, they wouldn't be fighting bankruptcy.

agami Quote:

AROS being open source, means that anyone can create a distro for any target spec. Just like the Apollo Team have spun up their own ApolloOS.

Amiga flavor and distro purgatory like Linux land. Divide and be conquered like Linux on the desktop.

pixie Quote:

I understand, but I have since discover through aminet a full set of software that extenders it well beyond what is expected from a software made in the nineties. Having said that, in some cases with so much power you can also have a 1.3 software take as much advantage of this raw power as 3.* My question was more towards, what does 3.2 bring that amounts to that much more speed? Take Picasso96, from what I know its drivers aren't hardware accelerated, but if they were to be tomorrow, say for the gfx chip of pistorm it would be accessible also for 3.*

Many P96 drivers have some level of GPU hardware acceleration. Many of the old cards had 2D acceleration like a blitter. Modern cards may use 3D shaders for 2D but this is more difficult to use. It would be possible to use CPU integer SIMD instructions to improve performance which AC68080 drivers likely use. The AC68080 has some 68k+ enhancements and optimizations asked for in this thread but it barely has the performance to be categorized as 68k+. It is a 68k FPGA SoC that could be turned into an ASIC leapfrogging all emulation but then it would have the wrong FPGA optimized ISA. The 64 bit SIMD integer operations that may be appealing in an ASIC don't looks as good when modern SIMD operations are 256/512 bit and support floating point (not easy to modernize the AC68080 SIMD support either the way SIMD operations are supported in the ISA).

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: The reason why the 68k+ price-to-performance ratio seems good is because the price-to-performance ratio of the original hardware and AmigaOS 4 hardware are so bad. An ASIC 68k core that only costs $1 USD to mass produce could outperform most of these ARM cores emulating the 68k.

It wouldn't even have to be that severe. A 68k ASIC which cost $25 in mass production would have better price/performance profile for Amiga 68k software than emulating it on the current crop of ARM SBCs.

In the absence of such an ASIC, the emulated path provides the community the fastest 68k Amiga experience at a very reasonable price.

Quote:

Emulation means inconsistent performance, minimal benefit from optimizing and no new performance enhancing ISAs. It is EOL.

All platforms have inconsistent performance. Even the leading gaming consoles have adopted a platform approach, where a game can perform differently based on the specific SKU of the user. The latest versions of Windows and macOS run on a variety of configurations: From 4 cores to 32, 5GHz, from 8GB RAM to 1TB, DDR3 to DDR5, spinning rust to PCIe 5 NVMe, and so on. But there is still software on these platforms specifying a minimum spec which excludes many people operating at the mid-to-low end.

Even without instruction revisions/extensions or vector/tensor units in the emulation soft cores, for which binaries would see optimisation benefits, there is nothing wrong with the Amiga 68k platform having software requiring a minimum spec of 68k+.

Quote:

Hyperion 68k AmigaOS 3 aims for the lowest common denominator 68000 AmigaOS for EOL emulation. If Hyperion had money, they wouldn't be fighting bankruptcy.

That was @amigang's original point. Amiga OS 3.2.x is not categorised as 68k+ software as it is intended for all Amiga hardware capable of running Amiga OS 3.x.

I simply specified a scenario, however unlikely, outlining what Hyperion would need to do to have an OS in the 68k+ rubric. Which would cost a lot of money, which Hyperion do not have, which is why it follows the "if" condition.

In the real world, if Hyperion did have the kind of money that would be needed to create a hybrid Amiga OS 3/4 for 68k+, they would sooner spend it on fighting law suits. Such is their nature.

Quote:

Amiga flavor and distro purgatory like Linux land. Divide and be conquered like Linux on the desktop.

AROS is in no danger of fostering a distro landscape akin to Linux. We might end up with three or four, which is more BSD territory.

In summary:
- Fast and compatible 68k ASIC = good (but when?)
- Fast and compatible 68k soft core = good (because available now)
- 68k software (including OS) which takes advantage of above = very much welcomed

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@agami

Quote:

Is this going to be that tired and old argument that if you want the features of AmigaOS 4 then you should get the very expensive and poor value-for-money PPC hardware?

Well, you don’t always get what you pay for, but in the of pi-storm you do, low price and low performance. There is big loss in speed because all machine code is emulated, and you do not have high performance graphics card. You have AGA chipset, but its not that impressive, it can be emulated in software. Going back to PiStrom is just silly. For AmigaONE/Sam460 user.

Its off course good for Hyperion to sell their games and software to all markets they can, not exclude anyone out of political nonsense.

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