@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote: @amigang Quote: I dont know about that, we have seen the rise of the Pi platform and its community, yes in the scale of the computer world its not going to set the world on fire, but it's had a moderate success. This platform did'nt arrive until 2012. Why was it success, because the CEO, who grew up learning his computer craft on an Amiga A600, couldn't afford a PC and thought, why isnt there a low cost computer to learn simple computer stuff and that is also hackable like this out their! Now I agree again, the current classic Amiga range, would of had to made the jump to some kind of platform by the end of 2000, if not before. But I still think the Amiga would of had a market, maybe not to the scale of Windows or Mac, but I think we could of been bigger than Linux. raspberry pi was, what, 30ish $ on launch? You're not getting a new computer/MB for that in the mid 90s(especially adapted for inflation). By the second part of the 90s, you'll be competing with the used 386/486 PCs at the low end, which will be faster and have much more software available. Even advanced OSes like BeOS(in theory at least, far superior architecture to Win 95/98), which was, in Gasse's own admission, a more advanced version of the AmigaOs, failed to gain a foothold in the market in the late 90s(BeOS was available for x86). It's juts not happening. Like I've said, you can sell a lot of very cheap Amigas based on the A500 in Eastern Europe(we never did really get the A1200 since it was too expensive at launch, so AGA is not needed) where even used PCs stayed expensive in the 90s, and software was mostly pirated because nobody had money to buy legitimate software anyway. But that market will dry up by late 90s, and than you're stuck with nowhere to go. If you port to another CPU, you also need developers to port their software, but since most software was pirated on the Amiga, they'll not be interested.

A1200's retail cost includes a "very healthy profit" margin for Commodore UK and Commodore-International (cite: Commodore the Inside Story- The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant - David John Pleasance). Hint: CD32's lower asking price.

The main problem is the available cash to purchase the components when the remaining cash was spent on 1 million A600 for the Xmas 1992 season and management didn't order enough Lisa chips from HP.


From Commodore - The Final Year,
Quote:

Jeff Frank was now the project manager of the AA600. (skip) The AA600 would require a special AA version of the Gayle chip used in the A600. It would also need a budget version of Bridgette, the chip in development for the A1000 Plus. The development of these two custom gate array chips would be the most time-sensitive tasks in order to meet the deadline. (skip) On March 19, Robbins finished the design requirements and pinouts for Budgie (a budget version of the Bridgette chip for the AA600) and AA Gayle. He named Budgie after The Creatures guitarist Budgie AKA Peter Edward Clarke. He would design the Budgie gate array himself. By May 18, 1992, Robbins had all the schematics completed for the gate array chips and his motherboard. Unlike previous Amiga computers, the gate arrays would not be manufactured by Commodore. CSG’s Ted Lenthe began looking for a company to fabricate the Budgie chip, offering bids to NCR, TI, Motorola, SGSThomson, and VLSI Technology, with the latter winning the bid.

AA600 = A1200.

AA-Gayle and Budgie (includes Bridgette and Ramsey functions) would delay AA's release.

Commodore Germany wanted the AA500 + a hard disk capability ASAP.

Quote:

From Commodore - The Final Year, Unfortunately, when it came time to manufacture the machines, poor planning had resulted in a shortage of crucial chips. “I recall one mistake towards the end of Commodore where they did not order the correct chips for the A1200, the AGA chips,� recalls Dale Luck. “People wanted the new graphics of the A1200 and A4000, but they didn’t order enough of the [Lisa] chips from Hewlett-Packard to actually make a half-million of the new Amigas.� Because there were not enough AGA chips to manufacture the A1200, Ali went to his backup plan of manufacturing A600 systems instead. (skip) The UK magazine Amiga Power, in its list of “Top Six crap things done by Commodore� listed as number two, “Bringing out the A600 as soon as the A500 Plus had established itself as the Number One Amiga, thereby alienating and annoying loads of loyal customers.� Gerard Bucas predicted the machine would bomb in the marketplace. “That's why Commodore eventually died, and it was all because of the A600,� he says. Mehdi Ali would not have definitive sales results of the A600 until after the holiday season of 1992. (skip) Sydnes Canned After the Europeans rejected his A2200, Bill Sydnes’ position within Commodore became increasingly tenuous. Mehdi Ali had begun taking over product development decisions since February. Once the A600 hit the shelves and sales began bombing, it became increasingly clear to everyone that Sydnes had been a dud. “They should have just said, ‘Can it, thank you very much,’ and focus on the A1200,� says Gerard Bucas. “There were other factors in there but the bottom line is that the A600 should never have seen the light of day. They spent a fortune on it, built too much inventory, and eventually had no cash.� (skip) Amiga 1200 1992 Although Bill Sydnes had departed, his A600 product had left behind a serious flaw in the Amiga product line when it came time for the A1200 release. It was a problem that was not immediately obvious to Mehdi Ali, who was inexperienced in the electronics industry. A disaster was building at Commodore that nobody would notice until it was too late. (skip) As a result, Ali’s team manufactured too many A600 computers for the market to absorb. “There were some mistakes made with buying a million A600s and then having to write them off,� says Dale Luck. “They just said, ‘Well let’s just make the same ones we did a year ago.’ But nobody wanted them. So they spent millions of dollars making a product nobody wanted, thinking they could make people buy it.� The delays in opening the Philippines factory also meant the factory was not ready to manufacture the A1200 on time. “Manufacturing in Hong Kong had basically shut down,� recalls Colin Proudfoot. “Manufacturing was coming out of the Philippines, which opened up six months late because of the volcano. And then we found out in September that the Philippines Manila Airport doesn't have the air freight capacity to ship all the product we needed. There were two routes: one through India and one through Tokyo out of Manila, and we just couldn't get space on planes to bring the product over in time for the retailers. So we missed the shipping window.� (skip) The Osborne Effect As long as all the money that flowed out for production flowed back in by the end of the year, Commodore would have a nice balance sheet to show the world in January. “Hopefully by Thanksgiving or December the warehouses were empty, and hopefully we made enough profit to cover all the costs incurred in the prior 12 months,� says Ed Hepler. “Hopefully by the end of the fiscal year we brought in more money than goes out, and therefore we had a profit.� The Osborne Effect, named after computer pioneer Adam Osborne, is when a company prematurely announces a product while the previous iteration is still in inventory. “You know, you tell that to a Mehdi and he doesn't know what that means,� says Jeff Porter. “You shouldn't be calling the shots if you don't know what Osborne syndrome is.� Word got out about the A1200 while Commodore had not even a marginal number of A1200s in Europe, and NTSC A1200 production was not slated to begin until December. “The story that I heard was that Mehdi Ali had basically spilled the beans at a conference he went to,� says Ed Hepler. On October 25, 1992 a New Zealand dealer named Mark Stuart received the specs for the A1200 in advance of the actual release. For some reason he was not asked to sign a nondisclosure agreement, and he posted a full description of the A1200 online. The cat was out of the bag. On October 27, Commodore released a position statement for the US launch of the A1200, even though the plan had been to announce it at the upcoming Comdex. In part it read, “This machine has already been announced in several European countries and will be officially announced in the U.S. at Comdex, November 16 in Las Vegas. It is currently expected to be available in the United States before Christmas, 1992.� Ready or not, the computer world found out about the A1200 in magazine previews in Europe while there were still tens of thousands of A600 systems in production or in inventory. “In October that year they announced the A1200, which was too late to get in stores for Christmas but it killed the A600,� explains Colin Proudfoot. (skip) Demand for the A600 nosedived, leaving Commodore with a situation eerily similar to the Plus/4. “He was introducing new products that were not in his warehouse,� laments Jeff Porter. (skip) On December 2, SCI-UK began manufacturing the first 250 units of the NTSC A1200. There were problems, such as the floppy drives not fitting in the case properly. (skip) By December 14, at the World of Commodore in Toronto, Commodore Canada didn’t even have a demo A1200 to show. With the A1200 barely rolling out of production in Europe, the premature announcements killed the demand for the A600s. “They may have had a few thousand A1200s for the world and everybody wanted an A1200 and they couldn't get it,� says Porter. “So they sucked wind on the Christmas quarter and when you're a consumer electronics company that sucks wind in the Christmas quarter you're screwed. That's when they Osborned themselves.� (skip) Commodore had released a flood of money towards A600 production—money that should have flowed back to the company in larger waves. “No one bought it [A600] and basically Commodore died because of too much inventory,� says Gerard Bucas. “They couldn't sell it; that killed them from a cash flow point of view.� (skip) Jeff Porter blames the debacle squarely on Mehdi Ali and his inexperience in the computer industry. “What did Mehdi know about manufacturing? Zero. Engineering? Zero. Marketing? Zero. Sales? Zero. Anything but finance, he was shooting blanks.�

Idiots are Bill Sydnes, Jeff Franks and Mehdi Ali.

A600 adventure killed Commodore!

If the Lisa chips are ordered in at sufficient quality for Xmas Q4 1992, RPi CEO's A600 would be A1200. H2 1992's 44,000 A1200s would changed into 500,000 A1200s.

Due to Commodore's AA Amiga's supply issue, my Dad (and many others) purchased 386DX-33/ET4000 based gaming PC for Q4 1992.


Bill Sydnes = failed IBM PCJr, Franklin Computers' failed Apple II clone.
Jeff Franks = Commodore PC clone division.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Aug-2024 at 05:25 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Aug-2024 at 05:22 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

@matthey Amiga 1200 chipset (CBM cost of $11 near bankruptcy) Alice - DMA, blitter, copper Lisa - display, sprites, pallette Paula - audio, I/O CIAx2 - timing, I/O Gayle - IDE Budgie - PCMCIA

Gayle has PCMCIA.

AA Gayle has 16-bit buffered connection to Budgie.

A600 had two PLL bridge chips in place of Budgie.

https://retro-commodore.eu/files/downloads/amigamanuals-xiik.net/Hardware/Specifications%20Gayle%20-%20Manual-ENG.pdf
For A300/A600, Gayle provides address decoding. Gayle replaced Gary in the A500.

For A3000/A4000, Fat Gary replaced Gary.

For AA600/A1200, Gayle evolved into AA Gayle.

Quote:

@matthey Amiga CD32 chipset (CBM cost of $6 near bankruptcy) Alice - DMA, blitter, copper Lisa - display, sprites, palette Paula - audio, I/O Akiko - CIAx2, CD-ROM, I/O, c2p

Akiko has 2xCIAs, DMA CD-ROM controller, PIO driven C2P and AA Gayle functions.

Akiko's C2P inclusion almost

CD32 was designed to compete against A300 on price.

Akiko's C2P story... the hardware C2P was born out of rebellion against management!

Quote:

From Commodore - The Final Years, After Bill Sydnes pushed Jeff Porter out of the Amiga hardware group, the latter had wisely fought to stay in West Chester, rather than follow Jeff Frank’s order to attend a conference. This gave him the ability to make the most of a bad situation, instead of allowing decisions to be thrust upon him. Porter was able to convince Sydnes of his usefulness due to his knowledge of Amiga technology. He asked that he be allowed to remain in research (skip) In return, Porter agreed he would focus on the CDTV-CR project in the multimedia division and not interfere with Sydnes’ leadership. “He said, ‘Why don't you go play on that CDTV thing. Have a ball,’� recalls Porter. “He gave me the CDTV-CR and a small team to deal with that including Hedley. I went off to go do my own thing.� As previously mentioned, the engineers had a joke that the multimedia division was where managers go to die. Both Harold \Copperman and Henri Rubin had both been assigned to the group and then departed when they realized they held no influence there. (skip) Still steaming from being relieved of his management role of the Amiga group, he was determined to beat the A300 with his own version of the Amiga, the CDTV-CR. (skip) At the same meeting, Mehdi Ali had made clear the importance of the CDTV-CR project to save Commodore from hemorrhaging more money on Gould’s favored project. He asked Davis to put in 16 hour days on the two chips while Bill Sydnes promised more support for the team. (skip) In the end, Porter succeeded in massively cost-reducing the CDROM drive. With a final parts cost of $73.27, resulting in a retail savings of over $200 compared to the CD-ROM drive in CDTV Phase 2. Amigo 1992 Jeff Porter and Hedley Davis had succeeded in radically cost reducing Commodore’s CD-ROM mechanism. They worked full-time on the CDTV-CR well into 1992 (skip) Hedley Davis, the system software developer on the CDTV-CR, was also having bad experiences with his manager. “I had resorted to playing tricks on management, which is something that I don't like,� he says. “In the CDTV-CR there's a bitplane-to-pixel converter. I was told, ‘No, you can't do that,’ by this guy who wanted to be the boss.� Davis wanted it so badly, he decided to trick his boss. “He wanted a list of all the features that we're putting in the CDTV-CR design so that this is what we agreed to do,� says Davis. “I write a list of these nine features that we were putting in the CDTV-CR and I hand it to him and he takes it. I know he's not going to fucking read it or pay attention to it or really think about it. He's just bossing me around and just being the boss.� (skip) One of those features was the forbidden bitplane-to-pixel converter, disguised slightly. “The CDTV-CR comes out and lo and behold there is this bitplane-to-pixel converter,� recalls Davis. “He's like, ‘I can't believe you did that, it wasn't on the list. We had an agreement and you're going to be fired.’� (skip) Davis insisted the item was on the list. “He's like, ‘It wasn't on the list.’ I said get the list out. It was at like number eight and I worded it so I never used the nouns ‘bitplane to pixel converter’ but rather came up with some obtuse wording about allowing better graphics processing by minimizing processor overhead for conversion between bitplane or whatever. It was in there but I tricked him by putting it in such a way because I knew he wouldn't read it.�

Porter's CD32 related development competed against Bill Sydnes/Jeff Franks' A300.

Akiko's hardware C2P started with CDTV-CR's ECS before switching to AA.


Quote:

From Commodore - The Final Years, Amigo At the exact same time as Mehdi Ali closed down the CDTV division, another CD-ROM product rose from the ashes. This time, the company would make sure the product made sense commercially right from the start. “Clearly we will continue with the living-room type of box,� said Lew Eggebrecht. “We learned a lot of things from CDTV—where our best price point is, how important the quality of the software is, and the fact that running Amiga software is important. Most of our sales come from applications where it is sold as a computer—not a CDTV.� (skip) Commodore needed to correct those problems and return to its strengths in retail. “Finally, we said, ‘What are we going to do about this CDTV product?’ It was doing well against CD-i, but that wasn't saying a lot,� says Eggebrecht. “We concluded that we wanted to build a game console which would play games and also be an interactive multimedia player.� (skip) The CD32 [the eventual name for the system] happened when Commodore main engineering got its hands on the CDTV and were told to cost reduce it and make it better,� explains Andy Finkel. “The CD32 was basically one of those efforts.� On June 27, 1992, at the behest of Jeff Frank, Jeff Porter made a first attempt to cost out a stripped-down CD Game System, which he called CD Stripper (pronounced “seedy stripper�). (skip) The new system would have no keyboard, no disk drive, and limited expansion. This first proposal also included a whopping 8 MB of RAM, a lot of memory at the time for a game system. The total bill of materials for the AGA system came to $232.67. (skip) “Probably the most interesting cost reduction of the whole CDTV-CR, which found its way onto the CD32, was the CD-ROM drive,� says Porter. (skip) Engineering efforts towards a prototype motherboard began, and Jeff Porter delivered the final draft of his spec on November 2, 1992. He considered the Amigo to be a super-cost-reduced CDTV that resembled a fat Walkman. The device would have connectors for two joysticks, a television, and a proprietary expansion connector similar to that of the Amiga 500. Each unit would cost Commodore $226 to manufacture. (skip) Hedley Davis and an engineer named Chris Coley would work on the Akiko chip design (called Arizona early in development). (skip) Dale Luck of 3DO contacted Davis in April (1993), owing to his CD-ROM expertise, and lured him to California by the end of May. “There were a lot of politics that started developing around the company [Commodore], and that's ultimately why I left,� says Hedley Davis. “It wasn't making any sense, you know? There was nothing good happening. It was just this infighting and arguing.

Quote:

@matthey AA+ (planned for 1994) Alice+Lisa replacements integrated? Paula replacement? (maybe Paula and Akiko+ chip could be integrated) Akiko+? (May be possible to integrate Paula+ and Akiko+ but analog Paula adds a challenge) IDE and PCMCIA functionality integrated? (maybe could be integrated into Akiko+ but pin count high) 68k SoC (planned for early 1995) 68k CPU licensed from Motorola with Amiga chipset (single chip) Considering CBM failed to integrate any of the core 3 chips of the chipset and only Lisa had been upgraded to use a semi-modern CMOS process, the early 1995 date in the Commodore post bankruptcy docs seems ambitious for CBM. CBM knew what to do to cost reduce, shrink/integrate and lower the power of the Amiga at least.

The core problem is excess inventory stock from 1 million A600.

Large batches of LIsa (from HP) and Budgie (from VTI) chips are fabricated externally from CSG.

CSG has later fabricated Lisa chips e.g. 391227-01 4203 Lisa 2593 52.

CSG didn't have enough 1.5 microns fabrication capacity for the intended A1200 and CD32 production targets.

CSG wasted fab equipment purchases on C65's 2 microns fabrication capacity.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Aug-2024 at 07:22 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Aug-2024 at 06:54 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Aug-2024 at 06:44 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Aug-2024 at 06:41 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Aug-2024 at 05:42 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: amigang Quote: I think your forgetting if commodore had survived and went this direction and focus was a low cost computer, then you would do what you can to bring down costs. So like reduce the aga chipset to one chip. Amiga 1200 chipset (CBM cost of $11 near bankruptcy) Alice - DMA, blitter, copper Lisa - display, sprites, pallette Paula - audio, I/O CIAx2 - timing, I/O Gayle - IDE Budgie - PCMCIA Amiga CD32 chipset (CBM cost of $6 near bankruptcy) Alice - DMA, blitter, copper Lisa - display, sprites, palette Paula - audio, I/O Akiko - CIAx2, CD-ROM, I/O, c2p AA+ (planned for 1994) Alice+Lisa replacements integrated? Paula replacement? (maybe Paula and Akiko+ chip could be integrated) Akiko+? (May be possible to integrate Paula+ and Akiko+ but analog Paula adds a challenge) IDE and PCMCIA functionality integrated? (maybe could be integrated into Akiko+ but pin count high) 68k SoC (planned for early 1995) 68k CPU licensed from Motorola with Amiga chipset (single chip) Considering CBM failed to integrate any of the core 3 chips of the chipset and only Lisa had been upgraded to use a semi-modern CMOS process, the early 1995 date in the Commodore post bankruptcy docs seems ambitious for CBM. CBM knew what to do to cost reduce, shrink/integrate and lower the power of the Amiga at least. amigang Quote: I would have also sold just a Amiga motherboard. I mean look at these costs listed in these docs https://archive.org/details/amiga-computer-cost-estimates-1991-04-16/mode/2up A500 cost $177 A3000+ cost $1028 You can see one the big cost was the cpu, floppy disk drive, etc so they could of made a board maybe without a cpu for very cheap and users / business could add cpu card. CBM no doubt sold boards and other separate parts but to businesses rather than directly to customers. Some high end Amiga 4000(T) models did not have a CPU on the motherboard as the 68040 was expensive but it was cheap to include a 68EC030 on the motherboard by this time. CBM cost on the 68EC020 was $8 while the 68EC030 would not be much more than this and was useful for diagnosis purposes as a motherboard CPU is more reliable than a plug-in accelerator card. The Commodore post bankruptcy docs give AGA motherboard costs but no date. parts | A4000/040/6MiB | A1200 | CD32 chips $20 $11 $6 DRAM $186 $50 $50 PCB $33 $19 $12 CPU $170 $8 $8 other $207 $50 $67 --- PCB+ $616 $138 $143 amigang Quote: I did a quick calculation based on these docs they could of made an A3000+ motherboard without CPU & disk drive keyboard etc, just the board at cost for around $516. Sell it at $750, again I think it would of done well. Again A500 just the board you could get down to $109. The A3000+ motherboards likely would have sold as upgrades for Amiga 3000 users which would have enlarged the AGA install base, especially if CBM limited their profit margin to something reasonable. One problem though, is that the Amiga 3000 case did not include a 5.25" bay for a 68EC020+AGA+CD-ROM standard but poor planning meant the Amiga 1200 didn't get the Akiko chip either. There was no official Amiga 4000 CD-ROM upgrade for the standard either. The Commodore post bankruptcy docs "Pricing Trend" for 12/93 has the A500 down to $122, A600 down to $191, A1200 down to $292 and A4000/040 down to $1659.

Do you have this source? I wasn't able to find it.

The only source for the prices is the one which amigang shared.
Which is very interesting to me, because it shows that the planned DSP costed $30 (for the chip itself) + $20 (for its codec) = $50. So, around two times the cost of the three custom chips.
However, you report very different prices for those chips.
Quote:

Some people today think the 6502 family CPUs and using old chipsets to reduce costs was the answer but the opposite is true.

That's a complete non-sense, as we know. A bad joke.
Quote:

Jay Miner had the right vision which is to plan wisely, enhance, integrate and conquer.

Fortunately.

cdimauro Quote:

Do you have this source? I wasn't able to find it.

https://archive.org/details/commodore-post-bankruptcy/mode/2up

cdimauro Quote:

The only source for the prices is the one which amigang shared. Which is very interesting to me, because it shows that the planned DSP costed $30 (for the chip itself) + $20 (for its codec) = $50. So, around two times the cost of the three custom chips. However, you report very different prices for those chips.

Costs and prices changed quickly. There was a big difference between 1990 and 1994.

@OneTimer1

Quote:

The best opportunity for improving the wedge case Amigas without rising their price, was missed when Irving Gould caught a leprechaun but forgot to ask him for all his money.

I thought leprechauns stole peoples money and added it to their pot?

@Hypex

I'm not an expert on Irish folklore, most stories are telling us about the immense richness of leprechauns.
If you catch one you can have his gold.

Fact is, Irvin Gould once saved C= when they where in trouble, he become one of the main owners but didn't invested much money into the company after it, compared to bosses of larger computer companies, he dragged a lot of money out of C=, money that would have needed for investments.

Just think about the 6502 family that was still a valuable MCU during the 80ies, but wasn't kept up to date to compete with 6805/6811 or 8049/8051. If the right technology would have been available, there would have been enough resources for something better than AGA and this years earlier.

Gould fired good managers like Thomas Rattigan just after one year and had to pay him 9 Million USD as compensation, just imagine what could have been done with the money when it would have been spent for development.

They invested money into Unix for Amiga but where not able marketing the A3000 as an Unix workstation.

The ill fated A600 would have made some sense if it could have been sold much cheaper than the A500 but it was nothing that would made A500 users switch ... there was no one left at C= with enough balls to stop wrong developments, no wonder because managers where fired as soon as they knew where they could find the toilet paper.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 03-Sep-2024 at 07:00 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 03-Sep-2024 at 06:59 PM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Other systems survived despite the PCs

Oh?

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@OneTimer1

Thomas Rattigan was undermined by Henri Rubin.

386 and 486 PCs can run Xenix, hence A3000UX is not unique. A3000UX's 68030 is a generation behind 68040 and 80486.

Certain HP 9000's 68K Unix have ECC memory support.

Last edited by Hammer on 04-Sep-2024 at 12:38 AM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Which is very interesting to me, because it shows that the planned DSP costed $30 (for the chip itself) + $20 (for its codec) = $50. So, around two times the cost of the three custom chips.

Extra audio CODEC is optional. DSP3210 is not just an audio DSP i.e. fast IEEE-754 FP32 for 3D.

Alice, Lisa, and Paula wouldn't be operational without Gayle's or Fat Gary's address generation services.

Alice + Lisa + Paula + Fat Gary = $30.49

For audio, Paula would need Fat Gary/Gary and Alice/Agnus i.e. $15.49.

DSP3210 is bus mastering capable like a CPU.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Other systems survived despite the PCs Oh?

What's the problem with you, kolla?

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Which is very interesting to me, because it shows that the planned DSP costed $30 (for the chip itself) + $20 (for its codec) = $50. So, around two times the cost of the three custom chips. Extra audio CODEC is optional.

Guess what: such DSP was meant to be used for adding... 8 (extra) AUDIO channels...
Quote:

DSP3210 is not just an audio DSP i.e. fast IEEE-754 FP32 for 3D.

Yes, and it was irrelevant for the Amiga mainstream market.
Quote:

Alice, Lisa, and Paula wouldn't be operational without Gayle's or Fat Gary's address generation services. Alice + Lisa + Paula + Fat Gary = $30.49 For audio, Paula would need Fat Gary/Gary and Alice/Agnus i.e. $15.49.

Sure, and? It's still almost half of the DSP + Codec price.

Plus, the CD32 proves that a BIG cost reduction would be possible, since the Amiga chipset is... an INTERNAL component. Whereas the DSP was still listed $20-30 at the beginning of the 1993, according to Eggbrecht.
Quote:

DSP3210 is bus mastering capable like a CPU.

It had some problems with the Amiga platform. E.g.: think about accessing the Chip RAM...

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: @cdimauro [quote]Other systems survived despite the PCs Oh?

What's the problem with you, kolla?[/quote]

I see too many crazy people... that's what's wrong.

What systems, in your oppinion, survived despite the PCs? IBM pSeries?

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@cdimauro
Quote:

Yes, and it was irrelevant for the Amiga mainstream market.

Guess what: It's relevant for Lew's mainstream AA+ Amigas.

Quote:

@cdimauro Plus, the CD32 proves that a BIG cost reduction would be possible, since the Amiga chipset is... an INTERNAL component.

The Akiko chip is fabricated by an external party (i.e. VTI) which allows for low-cost smaller PCB.

Akiko chip combines the services of Budgie (VTI), AA-Gayle (CSG), two CIA (CSG), hardware C2P and a DMA CD-ROM controller.

Subtotal PCB assembly from Commodore_Post_Bankruptcy.pdf
CD32: $143
A1200: $138

CD32 has reduced CSG's participation and added two extra features i.e. DMA CD-ROM controller (displaced PIO IDE) and hardware C2P.

This is before FDD, CD-ROM, keyboard, casework, and other final assembly components.

For subtotal PCB assembly, A1200 is cheaper. A1200 has a "healthy profit margin" according to David Pleasance.

David Pleasance has warned against CD32's release due to a lower profit margin.

For each A1200 sold, $50 is paid against the old debt. This debt is incurred by a human bus error known as Bill Sydnes (and Jeff Franks).

From Commodore the Inside Story, The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant - David John Pleasance
Quote:

With the inventory of Amiga 1200s dwindling, Mehdi Ali proposed a deal with SCI to build 400,000 units of the computer for Commodore UK, who in turn would pay them directly for the cost of the units plus $50 per machine to cover the old debt. Payment would be made as the inventory sold through.

The old debt has reduced A1200's room to maneuver. "A600 should never see the light of day." Commodore is a walking zombie after the 1 million A600 debacle.

Amiga_Computer_Cost_Estimates_1991-04-16.pdf doesn't show CD32.

Note the 400,000 A1200 + 166,000 CD32 = 566,000 potential AGA units.

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@cdimauro Whereas the DSP was still listed $20-30 at the beginning of the 1993, according to Eggbrecht.

Lew's mainstream AA+ Amigas has a DSP.

If A1200 doesn't have $50 old debt tax, what are you going to do with the extra $50 budget?

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Hammer wrote: 386 and 486 PCs can run Xenix, hence A3000UX is not unique. A3000UX's 68030 is a generation behind 68040 and 80486.

The A3000UX had a real AT&T Unix, this was more than just Xenix and if I spend the money for a Unix port I would try and keep it up to date, supported and with all fixes that are needed for the 68040, otherwise the money for the port is wasted.

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Hammer wrote: Lew's mainstream AA+ Amigas has a DSP.

The A500/A600/A1200 had only ChipRAM, this RAM was not really available for external CPUs. They had good audio for a game system, adding an additional 10$ chip would have raised the price around 40$, so adding 10$ chip here, 10$ chip there and another $10 chip elsewhere and it would have ended in an more expensive system.

A DSP on an A2000/A3000/A4000 would have made only sense, if someone used it for audio, for professional recording, he would have bought a sound card anyway.

Biggest problem on the old ECS Paula was IMHO not the audio quality, it was the outdated RS232 (slow, no FIFO) and the lack of a HD floppy connector.

There was no easy fix for a chip, that was so tightly integrated into the Amiga chipset.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 04-Sep-2024 at 08:26 PM.

@OneTimer1

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otherwise the money for the port is wasted

It was wasted, "the plan" was to go with Windows NT next.

AMIX didn't go anywhere.

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@kolla

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kolla wrote: @OneTimer1 Quote: otherwise the money for the port is wasted It was wasted, "the plan" was to go with Windows NT next.

WindowsNT never worked on 68k

@OneTimer1

"the plan" didn't evolve much around 68k either.

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@kolla

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kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: @kolla What's the problem with you, kolla? I see too many crazy people... that's what's wrong.

When there are too many crazy people, being crazy would be the normality...
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What systems, in your oppinion, survived despite the PCs? IBM pSeries?

I wasn't talking in general, rather on the consumer / mainstream market.

Hence: Apple with its Macs.

However, if you extend it to other markets, there are many other systems which survived PCs even nowadays.

I find particularly compelling IBM's z Series, because they embed one of the most super-complex CISC ISA which I ever seen.
What impresses me is the BIG amount of instructions formats which it sports, that makes a lot of pressure to the instructions decoder. Despite that, it reached very high clock frequencies. Kudos...

@Hammer

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Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Yes, and it was irrelevant for the Amiga mainstream market. Guess what: It's relevant for Lew's mainstream AA+ Amigas.

NEVER. Where did you got it? AA+ was the low-end system. Not even the AAA machines planned to have the DSP integrated.

Eggbrecht clearly stated that it would have been considered for FUTURE products, once the 16-bit audio is widespread.

That's on January 1993.
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Quote: @cdimauro Plus, the CD32 proves that a BIG cost reduction would be possible, since the Amiga chipset is... an INTERNAL component. The Akiko chip is fabricated by an external party (i.e. VTI) which allows for low-cost smaller PCB. Akiko chip combines the services of Budgie (VTI), AA-Gayle (CSG), two CIA (CSG), hardware C2P and a DMA CD-ROM controller. Subtotal PCB assembly from Commodore_Post_Bankruptcy.pdf CD32: $143 A1200: $138 CD32 has reduced CSG's participation and added two extra features i.e. DMA CD-ROM controller (displaced PIO IDE) and hardware C2P. This is before FDD, CD-ROM, keyboard, casework, and other final assembly components. For subtotal PCB assembly, A1200 is cheaper. A1200 has a "healthy profit margin" according to David Pleasance.

That's the PCB. Whereas I was talking about the CHIPSET, which was costed MUCH LESS compared to the A1200 one.

Have you took a look at the BOM material? I don't think so.
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David Pleasance has warned against CD32's release due to a lower profit margin. For each A1200 sold, $50 is paid against the old debt. This debt is incurred by a human bus error known as Bill Sydnes (and Jeff Franks). From Commodore the Inside Story, The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant - David John Pleasance Quote: With the inventory of Amiga 1200s dwindling, Mehdi Ali proposed a deal with SCI to build 400,000 units of the computer for Commodore UK, who in turn would pay them directly for the cost of the units plus $50 per machine to cover the old debt. Payment would be made as the inventory sold through. The old debt has reduced A1200's room to maneuver. "A600 should never see the light of day." Commodore is a walking zombie after the 1 million A600 debacle. Amiga_Computer_Cost_Estimates_1991-04-16.pdf doesn't show CD32. Note the 400,000 A1200 + 166,000 CD32 = 566,000 potential AGA units.

Totally irrelevant. Next time try to understand the discussion and give proper answers to the right context.
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Quote: @cdimauro Whereas the DSP was still listed $20-30 at the beginning of the 1993, according to Eggbrecht. Lew's mainstream AA+ Amigas has a DSP.

See above: not a chance.
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If A1200 doesn't have $50 old debt tax, what are you going to do with the extra $50 budget?

That's not your problem, right? Why do you care about it? Why don't you can care of all other mistakes of your beloved engineers?

You only finger point your enemies, the IBM's PC guys, but you continue to defend all other engineers which crippled the platform.

BTW, is Rubin a PC guy? Are LSI engineers PC guys?

@OneTimer1

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OneTimer1 wrote: Quote: Hammer wrote: Lew's mainstream AA+ Amigas has a DSP. The A500/A600/A1200 had only ChipRAM, this RAM was not really available for external CPUs. They had good audio for a game system, adding an additional 10$ chip would have raised the price around 40$, so adding 10$ chip here, 10$ chip there and another $10 chip elsewhere and it would have ended in an more expensive system. A DSP on an A2000/A3000/A4000 would have made only sense, if someone used it for audio, for professional recording, he would have bought a sound card anyway. Biggest problem on the old ECS Paula was IMHO not the audio quality, it was the outdated RS232 (slow, no FIFO) and the lack of a HD floppy connector. There was no easy fix for a chip, that was so tightly integrated into the Amiga chipset.

There were easy fix possible for the Amiga chipset. The problem is finding engineers able to understand how it worked, and how to properly evolve it.

Instead, we had mediocre people which proposed a super expensive $50 DSP, totally alien to the Amiga ecosystem, only because they weren't able to do their homework and add even just 4 more audio channels...