Interesting. THANK YOU Amiga-Arena!

But why not publishing it in an Amiga mag (Amiga Future)? [in english too]

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Crappy Google translation here.

Last edited by fryguy on 20-Aug-2008 at 05:35 PM.

Thanks for that Hans-Joerg. Interesting stuff.

Looking forward to playing with Cairo!

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MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

Interesting:

Quote:

HJF: I can only express my own opinion. I would like something to base CELL (PS3, or better yet a real computer CELL basis). Or IBM's PPC970. Also Freescale's 8641 (especially the 'D') is very interesting. In addition, I would have nothing against a version x86, but I do not think at the moment with reasonable resources to make. At the moment we are working on porting to other PowerPC platforms. But I can still nothing specific to say.

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Quote:

At the moment we are working on porting to other PowerPC platforms.

Indeed, very interesting!

OldFart

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Good interview, it's nice to see at least one of the Friedens start to open up again.

I am a bit disappointed to see some one sided bashing from someone I thought would be above that, eg
Quote:

If something is not right, you verbingt hours registry searches Reinstalling driver, and the selective killing task in the Task Manager. In AmigaOS know themselves as "normal users", where what can be found. The system is largely transparent, the user knows if in doubt, what to do.

in my experience as an amiga user, I know "what to do" when anything goes wrong: I get the "suspend or reboot" dialog, and clicking on "suspend" just makes things worse. All I'm asking for is that if your stuff is worse than the other guy's, just don't say anything.

Other than that, it's good stuff. I'm glad to see that they have been keeping up to date with the latest technologies and adapting them in a way that fits with the "amiga
way", eg using compositing to get the full effect of screen dragging (I think 4.0 could only do it with same resolution screens? I definitely couldn't drag any screen over any other screen, in some cases the "back" screen was always black). I'm also glad that they've gotten someone on board whose job is to maintain the SDK. I waited for the updated 4.0 SDK for months before I needed the space and put my A1 on storage - I'm pretty sure that if I'd been working on some project at the time, something else would have been put away instead.

OS4 replaced the "Suspend or Reboot" a long time ago.

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That Google translation was good enough for me to understand.
Thanks for the link.

And, thanks for the interview Amiga Arena!

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@xeron

Quote:

OS4 replaced the "Suspend or Reboot" a long time ago.

And they removed the Suspend button and replaced it with the leathel Kill button which is often as bad a Continue.

One *cannot* remove a task and leave its window behind!!! It crashes every time unless you're extremely careful.

Why not add a checkmark "Remove related data such as windows and files" when killing a task?! How oven does one task open a window and let another task draw in it vs. how many times a task opens its own window and draws in it and then crash??!

Think about it: What is most dangerous: Remove a task and its windows, risking that another task is drawing into it. Or removing a task and leave the window putting intuition into a sure crash and deadlock of the system.

_________________
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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

You can use Exorcist to remove unwanted windows.

When I'm developing, I can usually crash and then kill stuff several times before having to reboot...

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MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

@fryguy,

Thanks for the translation link thankfully it was good enough to understand.

@rest,

Very interesting article but obviously doesnt really do anything to clarify the situation over new hardware

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I have been trying to render the Google translation into comprehensible English working from the bottom up but I have no German. There are plenty of German users on this site with good enough English to clean it up. I find it necessary to paraphrase at times. Typos in the original may be responsible for some untranslated words. In one instance I am wondering if this is a colloquialism:
"If jams's times, you just know where you shaking."
"Wenn's mal klemmt, weiß man einfach, wo man Rütteln muss."
Could someone render it better? Does it mean that whatever is happening one knows what is going on?

Noel

I've been told there are better german to english translation programs than the Google one.

Last edited by NoelFuller on 20-Aug-2008 at 10:28 PM.
Last edited by NoelFuller on 20-Aug-2008 at 10:17 PM.

@NoelFuller

i have not compared, but Babelfish might fill up the gaps in Googles translation?

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@NoelFuller:

You´re right, that´s the overall meaning of this sentence.

I try my best to render it better now... "rütteln" is something like strong wind, shaking loose parts on a house, or (in the meaning of this sentence) somebody trying to loose a sticking drawer in a very old sideboard or such by shaking it (the drawer, not the sideboard).

So, the sentence used by HJF means that the average Amigan knows where to search for a problem in his system and how to actually solve it.

Shake your Amiga

Last edited by whose on 20-Aug-2008 at 11:43 PM.

Nothing's perfect, but this is one of the best online I've found....

http://www.online-translator.com/Default.aspx?prmtlang=en

Quote:

Wenn's mal klemmt, weiß man einfach, wo man Rütteln muss.

"if it sticks sometimes, one simply knows where one must shake."

Unfortunately it only does blocks of text, not entire pages like babelfish.

Plaz

@Plaz

Yes, that´s a very good translation (and you were faster than me ).

Thankyou for your help with the sticking drawer, It's a good expression and right in principle but I just shrug and reboot when I suddenly get a system crash on my A1 with OS4 though I know ways to minimise such. I have resisted speculation about hardware causes as a fellow user runs linux 24/7 on his A1 without any crashes.

I have now only 6 questions to go in my attempt to straighten up the translation. Certainly most of the problems are just typos in the original, but I have rewritten statements for what I think is greater clarity as I would for a muddled document in English. Dare I post my effort here a bit later for comment on correctness of interpretation?

Bez gave me problems as no translation is forthcoming, examining usage it seems to mean that the coming statement or question is in support of, supplementary to or clarifying a prior statement or question. My solution is to just leave it out.

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 21-Aug-2008 at 12:52 AM.

@Deniil715

Exactly. I mean, even freakin' Windows gets this right. I'm not going to say "how hard can it be" because I don't know the internals of AmigaOS, but I think this should be seen as a relatively high priority thing to fix.

Here is my attempt to render the Google translation in readable english. I would be grateful if the two principles could check they have not been misrepresented. I have left a few indications of confusion around in itallics and I don't have a clue what "Porter/Duff IC intern" signifies or what a neuern GUI is even after some internet searches. I did take advantage of german-english online dictionaries and other translators - sometimes hilarious - and where there were strings of meaningless words had to manufacture what seemed to make sense after reading up topics online.

Helpful comment welcome - I want our local members to be able to grasp what has been said. I find AmigaWorld has a different opinion about formatting to me and the two have not happily united, hence the erratic indenting.

Noel

Amiga Arena: Hello Hyperion, AmigaOS 4.1 is soon to be released,
      what are the highlights of the programme Version 4.1?
      How will it look to users?

HJF: The highlights were already in the press release mentioned:
      A native port of graphics API 'Cairo', demand-based paging,
Porter/Duff image compositing, new Workbench functionality, the new
file system JXFS, and further improvements.

      Demand-based paging means that memory pages to disk can be outsourced,
      to make room, and that this process is automated. Once a program
requests too much memory, rarely used memory pages are outsourced.
      The user remembers nothing of it.

      Cairo is a significant provision, as it is not just any graphics API,
      but one of the most commonly used API's in recent months. Programs
like Firefox, some builds of OpenOffice, Classpath's SWING toolkit,
SWT/Eclipse, all use the Cairo API, so a good system-compliant port
is a "Stepping Stone" for these projects.

      Porter/Duff image compositing is a technique similar to the Blitter
to display bitmaps. http://keithp.com/~keithp/porterduff/
      Unlike the Blitter, however, hardware-accelerated alpha blending,
      Scaling, and other effects are used. Among others, there is a
'triangles' mode, which can rotate bitmaps, scale and otherwise (in
perspective) distort.
      Cairo uses Porter/Duff IC intern, and virtually all neuern GUI
systems (GTK, Qt 4, MacOS X, Vista) do as well.

Amiga Arena: Will you update with costs and if yes, what is the price?

HJF: The update is (not) free of charge. Obvious error - word left out?
      Over several years of development there must be evolved ever and
again, a paid update. Continuous free updates we simply can not
afford. This update, as far as I know, retails for 105 euros plus
VAT. That is a question that ACube can better answer.

Amiga Arena: The situation around AmigaOS 4.0 is currently not easy
for you. What motivates you to further develop AmigaOS4.0?

HJF: If you have worked eight years on a project then you simply
believe in its success, and I do. It is certainly not easy.

Amiga Arena: Were there in the development of AmigaOS 4.1
difficulties or special moments of happiness?

HJF: Not really.
      After nearly eight years of development of AmigaOS 4.x we really
have experienced everything.

Amiga Arena: AmigaOS 4.1 is only for AmigaOne systems.
       Does this mean that the classic version will not be updated?

HJF: At the moment it is only offered for the AmigaOne but
the last press release added, "for now". I would say, further
announcements may be expected soon.

Amiga Arena: The 2D library "Cairo" is part of AmigaOS 4.1.
      What exactly is "Cairo" and what opportunities result for the Amiga
users and developers?

HJF: As mentioned above, Cairo offers a cross-platform environment,
      for 2D graphics, similar in importance to OpenGL for 3D. In fact,
every major cross-platform project now uses Cairo. For AmigaOS
developers Cairo provides a very useful and powerful graphics API.
      Cairo can be used on-screen as well as for file or printer output.
      One chooses a 'backend' (for example, drawing a window into an SVG,
PDF or PostScript (file or app?), or simply a PNG picture) and does
not have to worry about any specialties -- Drawing is the same,
whether it's on the screen or in a PS file for printing.

      Cairo can be "normal" bitmap manipulation such as turning, etc scale
as well as the management of so-called "paths". A Path is a lines /
curve train, then using a "brush" can be followed, or (for a closed
path) filled. Paths (whether drawn or filled) can also be used as
templates.

      There's more information at http://www.cairographics.org/

Amiga Arena: Excepting an updated SDK, with regard to the further
support of Developers, what is being done towards tools for
application development - in particular graphical debug tools, GUI
tools and the like? What further planning is being done in relation
to these aspects?

HJF: Projects like this are beyond our possibilities.
      We can only do the OS and the SDK. What goes beyond must come from
the community, but I know that such projects are already being worked
on.

Amiga Arena: How fares the continued support for application
developers in the future, starting with OS4.1: what it should look
like, increasingly extensive documentation and practical examples
      for inclusion in the OS4.1 API? If so, when can it be expected and
in what form?

HJF: To continue as before, we will update the SDK (and I admit that
is overdue). We have in the meantime found a new maintainer for the SDK.

Amiga Arena: AmigaOS 4.1, according to press release with the
statement - quote:
      "Indeed, Amiga OS 4.1 is not only the most advanced AmigaOS
incarnation to date, it is also the best way to reacquaint yourself
with times when computing was fun!"
      End quote.
      A brave statement for me. What fun has AmigaOS 4.1, that the other
systems such as AmigaOS 3.x do not have?

HJF: What makes AmigaOS 4.1 fun? With Windows if something
is not right, you spend hours in registry searches, reinstalling
the driver, selectively killing the task in the Task Manager.
      In AmigaOS "normal users" know themselves where what can be found.
      The system is largely transparent, the user knows, if in doubt, what
to do.

      AmigaOS 3.x is similar, but there are other problems. If for example,
you have a video card inserted in the Amiga, screendragging is lost,
one of the few features where AmigaOS is in advance of other systems.
AmigaOS 4.0 brought Screen dragging back, but only 4.1 with the
new compositing engine, brings advanced screen dragging back, in
every direction, and even with different bit depths.

      Also in usability we have done something. The new Workbench text mode
Lister is much more useful than listers in 3.x and even 4.0.

Amiga Arena: What is your objective with AmigaOS 4.1? Where, as the
developer do you see an opportunity for AmigaOS4?

HJF: We want to continue AmigaOS in the embedded area.
      Some are already interested, favouring AmigaOS 4.1 as the Multimedia
Content Platform they want to use (for example, a kind of kiosk
system).

Amiga Arena: If you had free choice of hardware to have for AmigaOS4,
which hardware would you like in the future? Currently, are there
already concrete prospects for new hardware?

HJF: I can only express my own opinion.
      I would like something based on CELL (PS3, or better yet a real
computer CELL basis), or IBM's PPC970 - also Freescale's 8641
(especially the 'D') is very interesting. In addition, I would have
nothing against an x86 version, but I do not think that at present it
would be reasonable to allocate resources to make it. At the moment
we are working on porting to other PowerPC platforms, but I can still
say nothing specific.

Amiga Arena: What do you believe keeps many users with AmigaOS?

HJF: I believe it is the transparency of the system, as mentioned
above. If it sticks sometimes, one simply knows where one must shake.
      But AmigaOS now gets more and more features from Windows Vista,
Mac OS X, Linux or her know???. We add technologies such as Cairo or add
shared objects to make it easier to port applications such as Firefox
or OpenOffice, or to port technologies such as Java.

      Sure, you can argue that other systems already have these
applications and technologies, but beyond these AmigaOS brings a
simple, transparent and uncomplicated OS, on which work is still fun.

Amiga Arena: Do you still feel part of the Amiga Community or has the
cooperation, in comparison with the past, changed?

HJF: I believe there is too much hatred in the Amiga community.
      For me it looks as if certain "elements" (without wanting to name
names) only exist to foment hatred between the camps. Sometimes even
people who are neither with AmigaOS or with MorphOS hit on something.
      I find this a great pity.

Amiga Arena: Do you see MorphOS 2.0 as competing product or can you
imagine developing software for it in the future?

HJF: At the moment there is no competition with MorphOS 2.0, because
we are not running on the same platforms. Developments for MorphOS
can, I believe, be ruled out. I have not the slightest idea how many
MorphOS users there are. With AmigaOS, this at least I know. That
does not mean that the AmigaOS is the greater "market", for all the
talk, but I only know how big it is.

Amiga Arena: Hyperion is currently in a court confrontation with
Amiga Inc. How will it affect the development of AmigaOS4 in future,
given a danger that AmigaOS4 will no longer be developed - does
AmigaOS4 stand or fall with this court case?

HJF: I can not say much.
      Based on the opinion of three law firms in any way involved with
      the case, the Hyperion management has assured us that Hyperion is
sure to win. That's enough for me personally, and so far it seems
Hyperion has had quite good run.

Amiga Arena: Certainly, not everything you have made and thought is
lost. From today's perspective, what would you have done differently?

HJF: Not much.
      I believe that we in many ways could not have acted differently.

Amiga Arena: How do you see the future of AmigaOS4? What could
become reality, what is wishful thinking?

HJF: AmigaOS has a real chance to become established, if we get
      sufficient funding to maintain the development. In addition, if we
manage one or two good placements in the embedded market, then we
will work it out. That does not mean that we have no more desktop-OS
work we want to do. On the contrary, one of the strengths of AmigaOS
is that it can work both as a desktop and in an embedded system.

Amiga Arena: What about AmigaOS4 applications in the future?
      Excepting AmigaOS4, Will you publish your own further AmigaOS4
software products. ?

HJF: My brother and I have a few projects in the pipeline.
      e.g. The fact that we are porting Blender, does not seem to be a
secret anymore. Besides, we also have a few other applications and
games projects, but I will not say too much.
      Most of this is in addition to working on AmigaOS.

Quote:

Why not add a checkmark "Remove related data such as windows and files" when killing a task?! How oven does one task open a window and let another task draw in it vs. how many times a task opens its own window and draws in it and then crash??! Think about it: What is most dangerous: Remove a task and its windows, risking that another task is drawing into it. Or removing a task and leave the window putting intuition into a sure crash and deadlock of the system.

In many cases it's better to leave grimreaper opened without to do anything to mantain system live... It's an unacceptable situation, It's strange that there isn't any way to tell to OS :"suspend this situation if a kill or a continue choice give a freeze". And you're right, GrimReaper should close all windows of a crashed application, instead to close them manually with a tool like Exorcist.

Anyone of OS4 team would explain us why is not there anything of similar? :)