@Hans
Quote:

I still count eight, including the GUI stuff.

I count 9-10, depending how much you think #4 is graphics (GFX) related:
1. GFX --> Hardware compositing engine (Radeon R1xx and R2xx family)
2. GFX --> Implementation of the "Cairo" device-independent 2D rendering library
3. GFX --> Reworked P96 with improved overlay support
4. Indirectly GFX related (my possible #10)--> Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) support for greater digital camera compatibility
5. GUI --> Improved Workbench functionality
6. GFX --> Improved 3D hardware accelerated screen-dragging
7. GUI/GFX --> Reworked AmiDock with true transparency
8. GIU -->Choice between several GUI themes including Amiga OS 4.0 and Amiga OS 4.1 default themes
9. GFX --> Reworked Warp3D Radeon drivers with new functionality
10. GFX --> Improved OpenGL support through MiniGL 2.0

I count 9-10.

Quote:

I did not say that Firefox would be included.

I did not say you did. What I did say was you mentioned two apps specifically versus the unspecified apps alluded to in the news release. I fully recognize the utility of those improvements/additions for future "possible" applications. There was no argument there.

Quote:

This is what Hyperion said: [b]"...wealth of substantial new functionality which is a prerequisite for the deployment of industry standard applications..."[b] So, these industry standard apps will not necessarily be on the CD. However, if these "industry standard applications" are ever to be ported, they will need the new functionality in OS 4.1.

And I said, 60% of mentioned functionality is GUI/GFX related. An OS is MUCH more than a GFX engine. We are being asked to do a full price re-buy of an OS because it has a better graphics engine (eye-candy )?

Quote:

What do you mean with "is printing fixed?" Printing works on OS4.0, provided that you have a printer with an Amiga driver.

Are you serious? I have Amiga drivers for my printers. And when I compare the quality of printout (non-PS, PS is done in the printer) with printout quality from my Winsux and Linux systems, Amiga printing, in my view, is in as much need of fixing as during the Classic days. For the Amiga I have to spend even more money (TurboPrint) to get capability I get with other OS's out of the box.

Quote:

If SANE were included, it would be listed in the set of new features as that would be a big one.

Thank you for making my point exactly. As I have been saying, show me the significant added capabilities that justifies the full retail price of a new OS. SANE/TWAIN were just a couple of examples I used.

Quote:

Every single person that has the hardware necessary to buy this, has a copy of Amiga OS 4.0. There is no point in having a "new" price and an "upgrade" price.

Thanks, again. Exactly because there is no other 'new' HW to run it on is all the more reason to convince me the 4.1 improvements/changes justify a full non-upgrade cost of an OS.

Quote:

Maybe you should wait and see what others say once they buy their copies before deciding to buy.

We have mind meld... Seriously, I will need, and am on the lookout for, more specific details before I buy. A more detailed list of device, library, command, and tool improvement/changes would be nice. Similar to what has been provided in the past. Especially since I cannot run down to my non-existent local Amiga dealer for a test drive. Unfortunately, Hyperion has us spoiled by the quality and quantity of changes provided in the OS4.0 updates. So the bar for asking full price for a .X upgrade is pretty high IMO.

Quote:

As a developer, I really want to get my hands on OS 4.1 for the extra functionality. I see great new potential.

And I really want you to get your hands on it so I can get those "soon" to appear industry standard apps.

Hans, I appreciate your POV and the feedback. What I am looking for is the completion of this statement: "OS4.1 is worth the price of a new (as opposed to upgrade price) OS because..." IMO what is listed in the news release is only worth an upgrade price to me. And I know a news release cannot go into all the details, thus the "much, much more" item. I did ask where we could go to find out those details that will help make a decision to buy at this time. Fair enough?

Quote:

The problem whit ENV: and ENVARC: is that programs use it store configuration information, so when you reinstall your OS, the program stops working, the same thing is true for the registry system, developers shuld consider using the progdir: for configuration files, how ever I can se problems whit multi user profiles if all configurations are in progdir:

nice idea. but not only env(arc) is a problem when reinstalling.
what i'd like to see is the complete *system* partition to be untouched by the user and actually write protected at start.
part of the needed technique is already here with multi-assigns. but i think that some "intelligence" has to be integrated into the system.
for example i have a "workbench" and a "programs" partition. the workbench only holds what originally was delivered with os4.0 including all patches. and *some* enhancements like new datatypes.
having a look at for example the "libs" assign i have a multi assign here.
it is assigned that:
... ASSIGN libs: programs:libs sys:libs

so if you use libs: as a path (hopefully) both pathes are searched. but if you copy smth to libs: the files will be placed on the programs: partition and NOT on the workbench: partition.
the same is for C: and l:.

doing this upgrading is much more easy. i have to backup my workbench partition and can format it and reinstall. not so much has to be copied back later.
but some stuff has to.

i really would like to see a step to that direction - separating the "system" stuff from the user stuff.

byebye...

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Member of Amiga-Freunde Pfalz, OS4 Welt

[Quote]
Quote:

What do you mean with "is printing fixed?" Printing works on OS4.0, provided that you have a printer with an Amiga driver.

Are you serious? I have Amiga drivers for my printers. And when I compare the quality of printout (non-PS, PS is done in the printer) with printout quality from my Winsux and Linux systems, Amiga printing, in my view, is in as much need of fixing as during the Classic days. For the Amiga I have to spend even more money (TurboPrint) to get capability I get with other OS's out of the box.
[/quote]

but that is not *fixing*.
this is more *enhancing*

(it is not a bug but a "missing feature")

byebye...

_________________
Michael Merkel
(Michael.Merkel@gmx.net Home)
Member of Amiga-Freunde Pfalz, OS4 Welt

@CodeSmith
Quote:

DNS vulnerability

As with most security risks, this one too is over estimated.
As long as the servers are patched, the hacker would need to intercept your direct network path.
So unless someone at your ISP is intent to destroy you, or you have a virus on your Amiga that would exploit it, (burst of laughter), your safe.

Last edited by logicalheart on 08-Aug-2008 at 05:51 PM.

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@DL

Quote:

4. Indirectly GFX related (my possible #10)--> Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) support for greater digital camera compatibility

PTP protocol support is NOT GUI/GFX related. It's USB data transfer related.

Quote:

5. GUI --> Improved Workbench functionality

Seeing as you don't know what functionality has improved, dismissing it as just GUI/eye-candy is reaching a bit too far.

Quote:

Quote: This is what Hyperion said: "...wealth of substantial new functionality which is a prerequisite for the deployment of industry standard applications..." So, these industry standard apps will not necessarily be on the CD. However, if these "industry standard applications" are ever to be ported, they will need the new functionality in OS 4.1. And I said, 60% of mentioned functionality is GUI/GFX related. An OS is MUCH more than a GFX engine. We are being asked to do a full price re-buy of an OS because it has a better graphics engine (eye-candy )?

Reread what I wrote (the bit that you quoted). The improved functionality is required for these "industry standard" apps. That includes some of the graphics/GUI stuff that you so quickly dismissed as eye-candy.

The core of human-user interaction is the GUI. This is why GUI/graphics toolkits are important. A GUI/graphics engine is not eye-candy. Eye-candy is just cosmetic appearance; the GUI/graphics engine is required for human-user interaction.

I'll ignore the rest of what you wrote since expecting them to rewrite printer drivers for old printers, include SANE (a big task BTW), etc. are unrealistic. I saw someone else hoping for Java too. If you're going to dismiss important functionality as "just eye-candy" just because it's graphics related, then you've missed the point of these items. I've explained why these matter to those bringing more software to the platform (which is important) as clearly as possible. If you still can't see it, I cannot help you.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 08-Aug-2008 at 05:55 PM.

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Regarding a registry...

One of the many reasons I hate MS Windows is that I constantly have problems which require tedious registry changes, or I can't install or reinstall or uninstall or move some program because of a registry setting.

I love Amiga programs that are so portable that the configuration file is inside of the program directory. I can move, delete, or do anything I need to just dealing with the program directory.

I wonder if something simple could be done like a directory index. Directories could be tagged if they need to provided reference information (e.g. ProgA). The index would only have the "progA" directory name and location, and information requests like "progA.key" would be filled by information from inside that directory. You could move and change anything you needed on the directory level and just run an index add or update, or maybe not anything. Even if the index was completely destroyed, you could just quickly build it again with a directory re-index.

Last edited by logicalheart on 08-Aug-2008 at 06:18 PM.
Last edited by logicalheart on 08-Aug-2008 at 06:17 PM.
Last edited by logicalheart on 08-Aug-2008 at 06:12 PM.
Last edited by logicalheart on 08-Aug-2008 at 06:10 PM.

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Quote:

I love Amiga programs that are so portable that the configuration file is inside of the program directory. I can move, delete, or do anything I need to just dealing with the program directory.

A registry does not invalidate the "PROGDIR:" assign.

Besides, we're talking about other things here. For example, make a connection from installed drivers to installed hardware, record capabilities of drivers, etc.

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@logicalheart

Wrong, this particular attack targets a weakness in the DNS system itself, which allows the caches to be "poisoned" with incorrect data, so that www.mybank.com takes you to the IP address of www.badguyserver.com (which has been made to look exactly like www.bank.com, only it harvests your username and password). Because the security bug is in the DNS protocol, both clients and servers need patching. If a client connects with the old version of the protocol, the server has no choice but to serve it the old style data, which may be compromised. A client that connects with the new version of the protocol will have a much higher degree of trust in the data he gets from DNS.

Hopefully it doesn't cost as much as gold

@ Rogue

Those little icons in the new listers, are they automaticly scaled down from the original big icons ? Or do the have to be added by hand to every program/program group ?

Thanks ! Great work, all of you

Martin

Last edited by Metalheart on 10-Aug-2008 at 12:03 PM.

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When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
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@Hans
You are too easy...

Quote:

PTP protocol support is NOT GUI/GFX related.

A protocol for getting a GRAPHIC file from a GRAPHICS device is not GRAPHICS related? Even indirectly? Does it only have to do with rendering graphics to be graphics related? I didn't even use it in my 9/15 = 60% calculation.

Workbench
Quote:

Seeing as you don't know what functionality has improved, dismissing it as just GUI/eye-candy is reaching a bit too far.

Note it said "improved", not new functionality. Improved = what we have today only done better. Versus added capability. So if Workbench has been improved only, we get no new functionality.

As far as "dismissing" GUI/Graphics as only eye-candy, don't take my glib use of the term too much to heart. My main point, as you seemed to have missed, is that for mostly GUI/Graphics improvements and additional features, in my book, does not justify the full price of an OS, versus an upgrade price. It seems to be sufficient for you. Fine.

Quote:

Reread what I wrote (the bit that you quoted). The improved functionality is required for these "industry standard" apps. That includes some of the graphics/GUI stuff that you so quickly dismissed as eye-candy.

Where did you get the idea I thought those features were NOT required for future industry standard apps? Or that having them is unimportant? So you don't like my use of the term eye-candy as applied to OS4.1 GUI/Graphics. Just re-read my posts, then, and substitute GUI/Graphics for 'eye-candy' if it makes you feel better.

Quote:

If you're going to dismiss important functionality as "just eye-candy" just because it's graphics related, then you've missed the point of these items.

I never said they were NOT important. I simply noted that an OS is much more than providing a GUI/Graphics engine. But according to the news release list, that is what the OS4.1 OS re-buy mostly consists.

Quote:

I've explained why these matter to those bringing more software to the platform (which is important) as clearly as possible.

I did not disagree that they are important, just not sufficient for a full OS asking price, IMO.

So the AmigaOS roadmap plan is to sucker Amiga users into re-buying their OS for each incremental step in bringing AmigaOS up to modern standards? First graphics, then, when printing is "improved", when SANE/TWAIN is added, etc. Each time we are to expect to pony up a full OS price? Does not sound like a path I want to take as the consumer.

Quote:

If you still can't see it, I cannot help you.

I saw both the list and your take on it. You are correct, you did not help by focusing on the 'eye-candy' comment and missing the main point.

@ all / hyperion.

I will buy OS4 just to support further AMIGA development and for this reason, WITHOUT HARDWARE. Just show me a link and I am ordering a copy.
I hope everything else settles down soon. I am just dying to try it out, I really miss having an up to date AMIGA.

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@DL

The PTP driver is really just a file transfer program.. it can transfer many types of files.. At the moment it was only recive and not send.

If the FileType id indicate a Image Type... it tryes to retrive a Thumb Nail or shoule I as an Icon :)

I can understand you think it graphics related as its normally pictures that get transfers and the PTP indicate it too.. but in reality its just a file transfer program.. I would just as well just have made a listview with files to copy/delete.

Just like a FTP server, the PTP uses its own protocol.

RWO

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@DL

PTP is a file transfer protocol that just happens to be used mostly for images. If we're going to call that graphics related then we should probably include the mass-storage driver too, because that's what other cameras use.

Workbench improvements are not necessarily GUI related. One of the listed features is universal notification support for filesystems. Thus, one of the improvements to Workbench could be that directory listings are automatically updated when a file/directory is added/deleted/modified. That's the kind of thing that filesystem notification would be used for, to notify applications/Workbench of changes to files/directories. It may be a minor improvement, but I really dislike how I have to manually refresh workbench windows so that they display up-to-date file listings.

Quote:

As far as "dismissing" GUI/Graphics as only eye-candy, don't take my glib use of the term too much to heart. My main point, as you seemed to have missed, is that for mostly GUI/Graphics improvements and additional features, in my book, does not justify the full price of an OS, versus an upgrade price. It seems to be sufficient for you. Fine.

If they slapped an upgrade sticker on the box, would that make you happy? Everyone buying it will be upgrading, so they might as well. For all you know, the "full price" that they would charge if there were any new users to sell to might be higher.

Quote:

I saw both the list and your take on it. You are correct, you did not help by focusing on the 'eye-candy' comment and missing the main point.

Your point that you don't think that it's worth the price that they're asking? I got that loud and clear. The way you were talking made it sound like you thought the improvements were mostly just a few frilly bits on the side.

It's your call. You don't have to upgrade at all. You could also only upgrade once every few generations. Plenty of people do that with other software.

A few tid-bits that I've picked up:
- AmigaInput is in, so joysticks, etc., can be used
- Networking is supposed to be "smoother and faster"
- There are supposed to be improvements across the board, i.e., just generally better

Hans

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@DL if you dont like it dont buy it.

Quote:

Those little icons in the new listers, are they automaticly scaled down from the original big icons ? Or do the have to be added by hand to every program/program group ?

The icons scale. You can set the size in the workbench preferences program.

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Quote:

A protocol for getting a GRAPHIC file from a GRAPHICS device is not GRAPHICS related? Even indirectly? Does it only have to do with rendering graphics to be graphics related? I didn't even use it in my 9/15 = 60% calculation.

Well then add JXFS to your list of graphics related changes because you can *gasp* store GRAPHICS on it.

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@ Rogue

>The icons scale. You can set the size in the workbench preferences program.

Realy ? Thats great ! Thamks, very nice feature

Martin

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Quote:

if you dont like it dont buy it.

That's helpful. I was wondering how long it would take for that comment to come out (similar to what I predicted in my first post).

At least Hans (especially) and RWO were trying to offer up some useful info.

@Hans & RWO
Thanks, I already understand what PTP is and is used for. That's why I said "indirectly" related since it is currently perceived mostly as a "picture protocol" and said 9 to 10 GUI/GFX related items.

Hans, thanks for the additional tidbits. That's useful.
Quote:

A few tid-bits that I've picked up: - AmigaInput is in, so joysticks, etc., can be used - Networking is supposed to be "smoother and faster" - There are supposed to be improvements across the board, i.e., just generally better

@Rogue
Glad you piped in. Where can I find a more extensive list of changes/additional capabilities than offered by the news release? Like Hyperion has done in the past? I don't have a local dealer nor user group that I can go to see and play around with OS4.1.

The sad fact is, with just the news release listing, if I bought OS4.1 today, for my use of the A1, it doesn't buy me much. Other than, dare I say, mostly (but not ONLY) eye-candy as overtly observable capabilities. I'm not a gamer, so all of the wonderful graphics capabilities don't do as much for me.

The non-graphics features listed:
- Intelligent memory paging. Better Performance/Efficiency/Reliability I would hope.

- Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) support for greater digital camera compatibility. A Good Thing (AGT), but my cameras already work via USB so doesn't buy me much at this time.

- JXFS filesystem with the support for drives and partitions of multiple terabyte size. Also AGT, but not a value add for my use.

- Improved Workbench functionality. Better Performance/Efficiency one would hope, but what new functionality?

- New and improved DOS functionality (full 64 bit support, universal notification support, automatic expunge and reload of updated disk resources). Another GT, better Performance/Efficiency/Reliability as well hopefully.

- Powerful and user-friendly installation utility. OK, but the current install also gets the job done. AGT for developers no doubt.

- And much, much more. Do tell! Do tell!

I just did not see the compelling reason for me from a cost/benefit analysis.

What would really help me out is:
1. More USB device drivers. In my case, a USB-to-serial converter driver so I can connect my GPS unit to my A1 (like I do with A1-Linux), UPS power control via USB, etc. More than the mass storage class.

2. JavaVM for all of the obvious reasons.

3. SANE/TWAIN so I can use my scanner (MicroTek Scanmaster 6000. OK, I can't use it on A1-Linux yet either, but I still need it!)

4. Fix the print system! Any chance of licensing/integrating TurboPrint?

5. More filesystems support. I run a multi-boot, multi-FS configuration. It is very helpful to be able to see partition contents from either "side" (AOS, Linux). Now, add VMM to OS4 and you really have something!

With no more compelling info I will, as Hans pointed out, hold off until OS4.1 is available on better HW or is required for some SW I need.

Look at what the vast majority of the OS4.1 buzz is about : eye-candy (themes, transparency, zooming, etc.)! Understandable, but we know that's not the whole story.

Awaiting user/developer reviews and videos...

Last edited by DL on 15-Aug-2008 at 04:30 PM.
Last edited by DL on 15-Aug-2008 at 04:28 PM.
Last edited by DL on 15-Aug-2008 at 04:24 PM.

What date are we looking for this to ship then?

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