I left the Amiga community for a time for reasons not related to Amiga's (mis)fortunes and when I came back discovered much anger directed at Amiga Inc. So much so that a bunch of people left here and set up their own forum elsewhere so they could get away from it.

All I want to know is why is there so much anger? Is it because there is no hardware? Is it because OS4 took so long to come? Is it because of the personalities of various people involved?

The reason I ask is simple. If the statements given by various Amiga Inc employees in the court case are true, the late software is not Amigas fault. The lack of hardware is directly related to OS4's late arrival and legal issues and the lack of comment from Amiga Inc to the community is related to their original promise not to speak if they had nothing to speak about.

And they have obviously not been able to deal with licencing issues til the problem with OS4 is sorted out.

So I'm left with the question, why does everyone hate Amiga Inc?


Please don't turn this into a rage fest. Simple answers are what I seek.


Edit: As I've been refering to them, I'll include the links here.

Bill McEwan

Fleecy Moss

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 02-May-2007 at 09:02 AM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 01-May-2007 at 09:03 PM.

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@SpaceDruid

In two words: "frustration and ego"




Quote:

So I'm left with the question, why does everyone hate Amiga Inc?

Everyone? Nah, some do, some don't.
And regarding the current mess, better wait to hear something from Hyperion before taking sides.

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@SpaceDruid

"why does everyone hate Amiga Inc?"

Because of the coupon scam, not paying Tronman, lies they told in general ect..
Despite this they still deserve their OS, that they had a contract for and paid for (however small an amount compared to the time spent developing). So it looks like Hyperion are crooked also. I guess you lie down with dogs and wake up with fleas.

I am in basic agreement with you as all this makes Hyperion look very bad, but then again I felt this way as soon as the Friedens were revealed to be porting OS4 (execSG) without Ainc permisson and they stated that ExecSG was theirs (despite being under contract to Hyperion for it's development, and they had seen the original sources). What gets me is all the sceaming of FUD when someone tried to point it out. No wonder the community is in such bad shape. Some went so far as to start another web site where bad news couldn't be discussed without moderation, and then went out and started another.

@tomazkid

Quote:

Everyone? Nah, some do, some don't. And regarding the current mess, better wait to hear something from Hyperion before taking sides.

Ok I realise "everyone" is a sweeping statement but it is based on how many anti-Amiga threads are in existance and as for taking sides, it seems a lot of people have taken sides a long time ago - which is why I asked the question why?

Just trying to play devils advocate. I've never had a problem with the (what I thought were) Hyperion employees that post(ed) on this site and until reading Fleecys sworn statement had no reason to think anything negative about Hyperion as a company.

I have found numerous occasions though when Amigas CEO was made out to be an evil version of Mehdi Ali and I'm only trying to understand why this has occured.

Especialy given the sworn statements presented to the courts. I'm not trying to find Hyperions bad points, just Amiga Incs

My "Hyperion Entertainment, The bad guys?" thread can await till it's there turn to give their version of the story.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 01-May-2007 at 06:55 PM.

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@stew

Quote:

stew wrote: @SpaceDruid "why does everyone hate Amiga Inc?" Because of the coupon scam, not paying Tronman, lies they told in general etc..

The coupon scam I understand. I'm one of those that got taken in with it. It was born out of a desperate need for funding after the dot.com crash so I can live with it. Not happy with it, but I can live with it.

Not paying wages is another "lack of funds" situation though they could have paid him by now instead of sponsoring a stadium - this is a black mark for sure. But this is a personal matter between the company and Tronman.

Not good buisness and bad for reputation, but is this really worthy of all the hatemail they seem to get?

"frustration and ego" (tomazkid) certainly would amplify any unease but even so, it seems far in excess of what has actually happened (or not happened).


Quote:

Despite this they still deserve their OS, that they had a contract for and paid for (however small an amount compared to the time spent developing). So it looks like Hyperion are crooked also. I guess you lie down with dogs and wake up with fleas.

Yeah, and this is the thing that bothers me. Only one of these companies had employees posting on the Amiga fan websites with any regularity and I'm wondering if we (the community) might have been played for fools for a very long time now.

Afterall, plenty of people on these forums would be very happy to be using a Hyperion OS4 instead of an Amiga one.


Edit: "(however small an amount compared to the time spent developing)"

This is another thing that bothers me. They were paid for a job that was meant to be finished quickly. If Hyperion were unable to finish the job in the time they were contracted to, should Amiga really have to stump up more cash?

I'll await Hyperions side of the story before I venture further down this path. They may have some important information missing from Amigas version of events.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 01-May-2007 at 07:12 PM.

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@SpaceDruid

Whomever deserves the most ire, Hyperion knows the community the best and will be able to get their point across better. This is the one thing Amiga has always had going against it. Amiga has always seemed out of touch or even disdainful of the shrinking Amiga community, which itself has become more and more skeptical. At least, that's how I see it.

@SpaceDruid

I think it is because most of us think that Amiga Inc has not been
up to the job, our platform deserved better.

There has been TOO many years, once there was talk about
"momentum". Amiga Inc never took advantage of this when there
still was time. That is what I'm most bitter about.

That simple IMO.

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@Manu

I think it is because most of us think that Amiga Inc has not been
up to the job, our platform deserved better.

Perhaps, but it was always thought it was A Inc that was the doorstop, now A Inc says it was Hyperion.

Love to hear their take on all this, but I don't think they are going to post it, we'll just have to see what court docs turn up.


Whoops, out of popcorn...

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@Manu

Quote:

There has been TOO many years, once there was talk about "momentum". Amiga Inc never took advantage of this when there still was time. That is what I'm most bitter about.

But who's fault was/is that? Hyperion were contracted to deliver a working OS in a timely fashion and failed to do so. Is this really the fault of Amiga Inc?

Perhaps the bitterness is directed at the wrong company?

If you read the sworn statements in the court case and if true, Amiga tried to get the OS out quickly, the ones that dragged it out (By adding unrequested features) were Hyperion.

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

But who's fault was/is that? Hyperion were contracted to deliver a working OS in a timely fashion and failed to do so. Is this really the fault of Amiga Inc? Perhaps the bitterness is directed at the wrong company? If you read the sworn statements in the court case and if true, Amiga tried to get the OS out quickly, the ones that dragged it out (By adding unrequested features) were Hyperion.

Sure I agree it seems so, it's only that it's today we can see it in another shade of light.
A week ago If you would have claimed this you would have been hanged instantly for
spreading FUD. Today we have Amiga Inc's version....BUT we are yet to have Hyperions version.

(I'm not convinced though that it matters what story Hyperion delivers, Amiga Inc is the
winner in this case)

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@SpaceDruid

A lot of why I'm unhappy with the current situation is that the community and development group is going through a pretty hard time the last few days. Are we strong enough to survive this, or have we become delicate enough that this will be the end, regardless of who is right or wrong?

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@Manu

Quote:

I think it is because most of us think that Amiga Inc has not been up to the job, our platform deserved better.

And although they may never have lost interest in the AmigaOS as such, the fact is that they turned to this DE/Anywhere stuff at some point in order to enter new markets, and from that moment on their motives and eventual aims were a little unclear to community members (read Fleecy Moss's court document to get their reasoning for the DE). Then when DE was not really a big success and OS4 failed to materialize, people got upset about the lack of progress and AI was the obvious address for their anger, whether justified or not.

Also, all those who joined other AOS-related initiatives after a while (for lack of progress in the official branch) naturally have a tendency not to give AI the benefit of doubt.

My interpretation..

-- Edit: Actually they did want to abandon the OS initially, as Fleecy Moss says, but then decided not to. Not abandoning the OS was a win-win move from their point of view.

Last edited by dirigent on 01-May-2007 at 08:03 PM.

@SpaceDruid

I'd say that "the good guys" are those that have been writing the OS/developing hardware despite the legal mess. They are probably not responsible for the mess, even though they have to deal with it. This includes the Friedens. I could be wrong, but their names appeared only on technical documents, not the contracts between A. Inc. and Hyperion. If they have a contract with Hyperion that doesn't include ownership/rights of the source-code, that's Hyperion's mistake. They signed two incompatible contracts. Having said that, the original contract between A Inc. and Hyperion states that third parties can have object-code only contracts. No-where does it stipulate that parts such as the Exec have to be done in house.

I'm waiting to see Hyperion's side of the story, but Amiga Inc. do have a good case. Hyperion did not deliver on time and have not handed over the source-code. We'll have to see what else has been going on (we only have one side of the story). I expect Hyperion to have some compelling counter arguements too.

What annoys me is the amount of legal word-play going on from both sides. A Inc. claiming that the Amigaones that were sold were unlicenced (and therefore, illegal), even though their old website says to the contrary. Then there's Hyperion claiming that OS4 was released in 2004, even though the disk is labelled "developer pre-release". Both of these are messing with definitions to obtain some sort of advantage.

Hans

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@Hans

Quote:

What annoys me is the amount of legal word-play going on from both sides. A Inc. claiming that the Amigaones that were sold were unlicenced (and therefore, illegal), even though their old website says to the contrary. Then there's Hyperion claiming that OS4 was released in 2004, even though the disk is labelled "developer pre-release". Both of these are messing with definitions to obtain some sort of advantage.

It has to be remembered though that this is tactics the legal teams (ie lawyers) are using and not nessesary the desires of the companies involved. Seldom do legal arguments involve fairplay or goodlyness. It is the nature of a lawyer to sink to the lowest depths in all that they do. That is why all lawyers go straight to hell when they die.

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@Manu

Quote:

I think it is because most of us think that Amiga Inc has not been up to the job, our platform deserved better.

You're right. Amiga Incapable it is!

OldFart

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@SpaceDruid

Seems like we've been at this forever. Most have moved on, those of us left are Hardcore Gluttons for Punishment, and/or amused by the Soap Opera. Most of my co-workers forget there ever was an omega, the others don't even laugh anymore. This current situation is what its all about and we seem to coming to another Crescendo of sorts. Most activity in years. Enough.

Amiga Inc. ---- Prooven to be untrustworthy. But they seem to have got us this far despite very messed up priorities. They are Amiga, good or bad.

Hyperion --- Seem to be untrustworthy. But they seem to have got us this far. Talented S/W developers with messed up priorities. They are OS 4.

From LA on the anniversary of race riots,"Can't we all just get along".

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@SpaceDruid

Here are some reasons that people might be p*ssed of at Amiga Inc prior to the latest A inc lies. We are already finding inconsistencies between what Mcewen has submitted to the court and what he has said in public in the past. Anyway.

1.

Amiga Inc was telling lies about Amiga OS4 long before they signed an agreement with Hyperion. They were saying that OS4 was on schedule and rocking and claimed that it would be available for sale with an Amiga One at the world of Amiga SE 2001 show. I remember the disappointment of finding out the day before that I wouldn't be taking a new computer home with me that November.

That same November that we learned that not a single stitch of work had been done on Amiga OS4, work that Amiga Inc had been saying for many months was taking place.
That same November that Hyperion stepped in and offered to take on the work of making OS4 happen.

2.

Many people who are known as the "blue side" are ####ed off at Amiga because the MorphOS deal that was rejected and subsequent allegations and threats of legal action against the MorphOS team.

3.

There are the allegations of Amithlon not being fully legal, their unwillingness to come to an agreement with Bernd Meyer over the future of Amithlon and the subsequent demise of that product.

4.

Not just the club Amiga T-shirt and coupon scam, but the Party Pack coupon scam.

5.

The failure to work with Genesi.

6.

The rejection of Acill's business plan to bring Amiga OS4 to Pegasos in the absence of a deal between Amiga Inc and Genesi.

7.

The AHT deal.

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

So I'm left with the question, why does everyone hate Amiga Inc?

My gut feelings is they are trying to take all the credit and squash Hyperion for no reason other than to make themselves look big. Hyperion are the good guys after all the extremely hard work they have put in, why should we let Amiga Inc do nothing then become the bully. It stinks in much the same way that BIll Buck's behaviour did a few years ago.

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @Hans Quote: What annoys me is the amount of legal word-play going on from both sides. A Inc. claiming that the Amigaones that were sold were unlicenced (and therefore, illegal), even though their old website says to the contrary. Then there's Hyperion claiming that OS4 was released in 2004, even though the disk is labelled "developer pre-release". Both of these are messing with definitions to obtain some sort of advantage. It has to be remembered though that this is tactics the legal teams (ie lawyers) are using and not nessesary the desires of the companies involved. Seldom do legal arguments involve fairplay or goodlyness. It is the nature of a lawyer to sink to the lowest depths in all that they do. That is why all lawyers go straight to hell when they die.

True. However, Bill McEwan signed the document stating that the Amigaone SE/XE weren't legal amigaones. This makes it his statement too. Warping the truth may be standard tactics and doable, that doesn't make it right.

Hans

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@Rob

I have to declare I fully supported Amiga Inc during this time so there is defenite bias in my opinions in this area. The red v blue war was bad for both sides and I'm not really sure which side was right or wrong in the end.

This was the time of great egos on all sides and that was the biggest stumbling block to anything productive coming out of it.

Did Genesi suffer from Amigas actions or did Amiga suffer from Genesis? I'm not sure anyone can give a definitive answer to that. All I know is that they both suffered and it was a major waste of time and money.

At the end of the day, Amiga Inc owned the rights and they didn't want to go that way.

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