@HenryCase

Quote:

As well as the NatAmi CPU expansion slot it will have up to 3 PCI slots for expansions, one of which could be used for a GPU if you wanted. Not the latest graphics cards, but certainly a Voodoo3 would be fine.

According to natami web site, it's 2 PCI or 3 PCI with riser.

Anyway, AOS3.x Draco seems to be missing the classic Amiga custom chips....

Quote:

FFS Hammer, when are you going to realise you are the only one comparing NatAmi to modern PC's? If you want to talk about the latest Intel, AMD-ATI, NVidia, etc... products, make your own thread.

Something on "$10 Video card" statement from Dave Haynie...

Read the thread again; Post #41, #48, #58, #60, #75. Post #75 was the trigger point.
Todays PCs are not equipped with just plain vanilla 32bit GFX card.

Quote:

If it was ever released you could put a 80-core Intel Polaris CPU in a NatAmi compatible accelerator card. Accelerator cards are not relevant, you could make a supercomputer out of a pocket calculator with an accelerator card.

80-core Intel Polaris CPU is neither here or there. Intel GMA X3100 already has up to 128 stream co-processors @500Mhz.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 11:37 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 11:36 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @BigGun Quote: I like the NATAMI because I can turn it on surf the internet answer a post in a forum and turn it off again. Together with a modern webbrowser the swift AMIGA OS allows the NATAMI to do this better than my PPC Linux box here. (turning on waiting 1 minute until login screen ...) Why AOS vs some *nix OS? There's MOS PPC, AOS4 PPC and AROS X86?

Maybe because he doesn't have a MOS PPC, AOS4 PPC or AROS X86 computer, but does have a Linux PPC box? No big conspiracy.

Quote:

Hammer wrote: Once AROS X86 gains an integrated 68K; how about 68060 @90Mhz+Natami vs Core 2 @2.4Ghz+SantaRosa?

Totally different. AROS is one way of enjoying an Amiga-like experience, NatAmi is another. There is no reason you can't have both. Some people (like myself) like specialist hardware. What is wrong with that?

@Hammer
Dave Haynie was talking about the AAA architecture from a commercial standpoint. We are talking about a hobby computing project, the goals and the market are slightly different.

Post #75 just talked about making Amiga architecture more modern. I dislike the way it was said too, but BigGun didn't actually say anything wrong. I made sure we clarified what was being promised in my own post soon after (#79):

Quote:

HenryCase wrote: The NatAmi could be more powerful than classic Amigas, so it is closer in spec to top of the range hardware, but that does not mean it is top of the range hardware. I think that is an important distinction to make, so we don't get too carried away.

@Hammer
The main sentiment of post #41 was...
Quote:

pavlor wrote: NatAmi looks nice (but nothing for me).

Are you sure you don't mean post #42?

Also not sure what the problem with post #48 is:
Quote:

stokey wrote: An x86 CPU for NatAMI seems as pointless as PPC. x86 motherboards are much cheaper, and have more advanced hardware.

In other words, if you're going for a X86 processor you might as well buy a regular PC. Stokey seems to be agreeing with you.

Post #58 was _Steve_ talking about the benefits of AGA++ over AAA, post #60 was -pekr- talking about why AAA completion would be a good thing. IMO they both made good points. What was your take on the issue Hammer?

@HenryCase

Quote:

HenryCase wrote: @Hammer Dave Haynie was talking about the AAA architecture from a commercial standpoint. We are talking about a hobby computing project, the goals and the market are slightly different. Post #75 just talked about making Amiga architecture more modern. I dislike the way it was said too, but BigGun didn't actually say anything wrong. I made sure we clarified what was being promised in my own post soon after (#79): Quote: HenryCase wrote: The NatAmi could be more powerful than classic Amigas, so it is closer in spec to top of the range hardware, but that does not mean it is top of the range hardware. I think that is an important distinction to make, so we don't get too carried away.

One problem, Intel, ATI and NV IGPs are not "top of the range" hardware i.e. they are bottom of the range hardware. For 2D, today's IGPs includes MPEG2, H.264 and VC1 acceleration.

ATI and NV IGPs’s performance increases are partly due to respective ATI and NV offerings in the HD capable gaming consoles i.e. XBOX360 and PS3.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 12:00 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@HenryCase

In my point of view, new amiga computer should have Core 2 or G5 CPU and PCIe GFX. The best hardware of its time with superior OS, that is the spirit of amiga.

@HenryCase

Quote:

HenryCase wrote: @Hammer The main sentiment of post #41 was... Quote: pavlor wrote: NatAmi looks nice (but nothing for me). Are you sure you don't mean post #42? Also not sure what the problem with post #48 is: Quote: stokey wrote: An x86 CPU for NatAMI seems as pointless as PPC. x86 motherboards are much cheaper, and have more advanced hardware. In other words, if you're going for a X86 processor you might as well buy a regular PC. Stokey seems to be agreeing with you. Post #58 was _Steve_ talking about the benefits of AGA++ over AAA, post #60 was -pekr- talking about why AAA completion would be a good thing. IMO they both made good points. What was your take on the issue Hammer?

I was not the first in Natami vs whatever.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer
Quote:

Hammer wrote: Quote: HenryCase wrote: The NatAmi could be more powerful than classic Amigas, so it is closer in spec to top of the range hardware, but that does not mean it is top of the range hardware. I think that is an important distinction to make, so we don't get too carried away. One problem, Intel, ATI and NV IGPs are not "top of the range" hardware i.e. they are bottom of the range hardware. For 2D, today's IGPs includes MPEG2, H.264 and VC1 acceleration.

If NatAmi is closer than the A4000 to entry level PC hardware then it is also closer to top of the range PC hardware. How hard is that to understand?

Quote:

Hammer wrote: 80-core Intel Polaris CPU is neither here or there. Intel GMA X3100 already has up to 128 stream co-processors @500Mhz.

Are you seriously trying to compare the power of Polaris to GMA X3100? Polaris is a single chip capable of 1.02 TFLOPS. To put the whole TFLOPS thing in perspective, the first supercomputer to break the 1 TFLOPS barrier was ASCI Red, which was used to simulate nuclear explosions. Do you think GMA X3100 could do as good a job if it had a CUDA-like language?

This argument is pointless. The thread is about NatAmi, its not some willy measuring competition between you and me about modern PC tech. If you want to continue discussing it send me a PM or start a new thread.

Last edited by HenryCase on 16-Mar-2008 at 12:26 PM.
Last edited by HenryCase on 16-Mar-2008 at 12:26 PM.

@pavlor
Quote:

pavlor wrote: @HenryCase In my point of view, new amiga computer should have Core 2 or G5 CPU and PCIe GFX. The best hardware of its time with superior OS, that is the spirit of amiga.

Go and play with AROS then.

@HenryCase

Quote:

Go and play with AROS then.

AROS needs much more work... maybe in 2012.

@HenryCase

Quote:

If NatAmi is closer than the A4000 to entry level PC hardware then it is also closer to top of the range PC hardware. How hard is that to understand?

Again, define "classic Amiga". The post was about "closer to top of the range PC hardware" and implied near parity.

Would it able to beat Geode LX SOC?

Quote:

Are you seriously trying to compare the power of Polaris to GMA X3100? Polaris is a single chip capable of 1.02 TFLOPS

Polaris is not available i.e. it's neither here or there.

3DLabs WildCat wih 200GFLOPS SP FP didn't do much against ATI and NV. Guess who employing these ex-3DLabs engineers?

AMD and NV will have a single chip package 1TFLOPS SP FP solution on the PC market before Intel i.e. TSMC already the designs for R700 for mass production later this year. Intel just released thier X3500....

Quote:

ASCI Red

I don't recall fitting thing on my desk.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 01:15 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 01:11 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 01:10 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 01:06 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 01:00 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Mar-2008 at 12:59 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@pavlor

OT:
It doesn't help to mock AROS. If we for starters could get people to build
AROS versions of their code too then AROS would be the biggest Amiga
alternative in 2012.

PS- 2012 is only 4 years away so It's not such a long time either

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

@pavlor

It basically needs an integrated 68K emulator.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @HenryCase Quote: Go and play with AROS then. AROS needs much more work... maybe in 2012.

Why not see if you can help out the AROS team so the OS reaches your level of standards quicker?

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @HenryCase Quote: If NatAmi is closer than the A4000 to entry level PC hardware then it is also closer to top of the range PC hardware. How hard is that to understand? Again, define "classic Amiga".

From post #85...
Quote:

HenryCase wrote: Other people may argue against this, but I would say a classic Amiga is one with 68k processor and custom chipset at its core. The accelerator cards available aren't relevant, it is the core system we are talking about.

I still stand by that. When I am talking about modernisation I am not talking about turning NatAmi into a PC clone, but just about the increase in power available to developers and users. Lets take an example. Quake cannot (as far as I know) run without an accelerator card on an A4000. However, I would estimate there is a decent chance of getting Quake running unassisted on a NatAmi.

Quote:

Hammer wrote: Quote: HenryCase wrote: Are you seriously trying to compare the power of Polaris to GMA X3100? Polaris is a single chip capable of 1.02 TFLOPS Polaris is not available i.e. it's neither here or there.

The lack of released hardware doesn't seem to stop you discussing NatAmi specs.

Quote:

Hammer wrote: 3DLabs WildCat wih 200GFLOPS SP FP didn't do much against ATI and NV. Guess who employing these ex-3DLabs engineers? AMD and NV will have a single chip package 1TFLOPS SP FP solution on the PC market before Intel i.e. TSMC already the designs for R700 for mass production later this year.

I admit that I was not aware of those chips, and I am grateful for the information, but as I said to you before, if you want to continue this modern PC tech discussion send me a PM or start a new thread.

Hammer, I do understand why this whole PC vs NatAmi thing started (I think the MeKa2008 thread had a lot to do with it). I am not pleased about some of the statements BigGun made in that thread, but that does not stop me liking the NatAmi project. NatAmi is the closest thing to an A5000 we've ever seen, can you understand why that is exciting to Amiga fans?

Last edited by HenryCase on 16-Mar-2008 at 01:22 PM.

@HenryCase

Quote:

The lack of released hardware doesn't seem to stop you discussing NatAmi specs.

The issue is with BigGun's open ended statements, not Natami per se.

Quote:

Hammer, I do understand why this whole PC vs NatAmi thing started (I think the MeKa2008 thread had a lot to do with it). I am not pleased about some of the statements BigGun made in that thread, but that does not stop me liking the NatAmi project. NatAmi is the closest thing to an A5000 we've ever seen, can you understand why that is exciting to Amiga fans?

I understand the "what if" concept or Draco+Amiga IGP(plus improvements) clone replacement.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer
Quote:

Hammer wrote: @HenryCase Quote: The lack of released hardware doesn't seem to stop you discussing NatAmi specs. The issue is with BigGun's open ended statements, not Natami per se.

I see. I had a few problems with BigGun's statements too (faster than a PC at this, faster than an A1 at that, etc...). Once more of us get our hands on the hardware we'll see what it can do.

Quote:

Quote: Hammer, I do understand why this whole PC vs NatAmi thing started (I think the MeKa2008 thread had a lot to do with it). I am not pleased about some of the statements BigGun made in that thread, but that does not stop me liking the NatAmi project. NatAmi is the closest thing to an A5000 we've ever seen, can you understand why that is exciting to Amiga fans? I understand the "what if" concept or Draco+Amiga IGP(plus improvements) clone replacement.

Well the DraCo was for a different market, but I suppose its the closest we've come to an A5000 so far.

Can't wait to see the next NatAmi prototype, exciting times!

@thread

This is getting fairly off-topic, and becoming a ####ing match for PC vs Natami. While I do tend to agree some of the Natami claims are a bit...overly optimistic, or perhaps not specific enough, take it to another thread if you'd like - a 'Natami expected performance vs PC' one, if you'd like.

Yes, this includes Hammer.

BigGun - I also see some of your statements as triggering this, so you may want to think about how either a sceptic or a hardware nut might see _some_ of your more enthusiastic statements, or back them up when making them. This IS a discussion forum after all, and short of creating a project in the Dev Projects Forum (geared more towards 'here are the product's statements and info' vs discussion in the specific thread/forum), it's perfectly acceptable for people to disagree.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@thread

The 68060 and SuperAGA is a good combination. Here is a screenshot of some demo coding in progress (thanks Gunnar!):



We will be assisting Thomas at Freescale. The Coldfire V5 core is used in HP printers. Consequently, there is not much information available to the public on the Freescale site.

Some years ago we bought a few hundred copies of AmigaOS 3.x from Petro (can't remember which one it is -- need to check in storage -- probably 3.5). This should be enough to get Thomas started.

R&B

Last edited by bbrv on 16-Mar-2008 at 03:28 PM.

_________________
genesi

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote: @tiffersQuote: NatAmi has to be proved to be 100% compaitble as claimed I don't think he has claimed it to be 100% compatible - but merely 100% matching the official DOCUMENTED behaviour, while of course some functionality was not officially documented or even behaved differently to what was documented. Maybe he will make it more compatible than merely meeting the official specs, but I guess that the Clone-A will be much more compatible (but no better than the ECS chipset) and maybe even the Mini-Mig might be more compatible. I think that if you want to ONLY play old games, then use WinUAE or a Mini-Mig. If you want a real modern Amiga, that can run a lot (but not all) the old software (inc games) then NatAmi is the answer. Remember that not even the A1200 (AGA) could not even run all games from the A500 (OCS/ECS), and the NatAmi is a much bigger jump than A500->A1200.

At the time Commodore stated that the A1200 would "be around 60% compatible" with existing A500 software.

As you say the NatAmi is a much bigger jump, so if it manages 60% or more then people should be happy about that.

_________________
Founder of NWAG - North West Amiga Group

Night Operations

A1200 020/28MHz + 64Mb / 4Gb CF / OS 3.1.4.1 / 1438S
A500+ / 2Mb
A600

@bbrv
Great to hear you are helping Thomas.
Is the Coldfire V5 core the CPU being used in the NatAmi? I thought it was using a 68060.

@thread
Some information about the Coldfire V5 can be seen here:
http://www.hardwaregeeks.com/board/showthread.php?t=1505