@corwin

Quote:

Sure, where can I download/buy AOS4 to help it?

As elwood (and myself) said: You need not do this. Get AmigaForever (or if you own a Miggy, WinUAE) and start work.

Quote:

Too late, I bought my laptop 8 months ago, my savings are now invested.

See above.

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Everything I do is related to web technologies, the amiga browsers don't support the most basic web technologies. Should I abandon my opensource work on mozilla technologies which has an impact on tens of millions of users and can potentially impact almost everybody with a computer on earth so as to use this time to work on opensource project s for a closed-source OS used by a few hundred people at best and with no prospect of even a minimal growth in the future? Of course not. As much as I like amigaOS, an OS is here to help me do my work, not the other way around.

Well, if nobody had done some work on mozilla technologies before, would you have the possibility to do anything like this? No. Your view looks like people like Linus Torvalds and many other didn't even exist and everything was "suddenly" there. Well, there was nothing of this before. There was a lot of work of passionate people who made it possible for YOU and many others to contribute to this work. If they had argued the same way like you, there would be Windows/Explorer only (or perhaps nothing of it at all).

An OS lives from the work of the people using it. For AmigaOS nowadays very few people are willing to do anything, most of them only want to consume and compare it with Win/Lin only to see that there is much work to be done and then "abandon the ship". There are fields where some of us can't work fully using AmigaOS, but it is still usable in most fields today. There is no such big work that it would be impossible to reach the goal "bringing back AmigaOS". There is a start signal missing, that's all. People can give this signal by developing and using (not consuming!) new software (the latter in a fair way, as it is practiced in many other communities).

I wonder if Linux would have evolved so much if all of the "hard workers" had argued the way you do. As far as I remember, Linux wasn't very useful in it's early days...

@hans:

You were faster

Greetz

Last edited by whose on 17-Jul-2006 at 06:38 PM.

@whose

> There is a start signal missing, that's all.

Yep, a release of OS4 for existing PPC hardware would be a good start. I highly value symbols of goodwill.

_________________
Eagerly awaiting the X1000

@Oppressor

What's the point? That you wouldn't get as much money as you would get, if you develop for Win? Well, then do so and see. If you fear the loss of control of oss when AmigaOS bust up, were's the problem? It's open, port it to another machine. If you fear the loss of control over closed source, save it. There is no law that forces you to give your IP away, even if you're working with a large team.

I really don't understand all the argueing against it. All of this work flawlessy in other communities, even smaller ones, only for AmigaOS this should be impossible? I think most of you see problems where they weren't...

Greetz

@Gleng, -Sam-

"That's the thing isn't it. I think the silence is doing more damage than anything else."

"Exactly. It is a situation that breeds little confidence."

But it's easy to see why there is silence. In the past when people involved with Amiga projects have been communicative, if things do not go exactly as stated then there are people that jump on them, and there are lots of flames and attacks that probably do a lot more damage (at both ends) than the waiting game we have at the moment.

I do believe that Hyperion have a plan, because they wouldn't just sit there without one, they'd put OS4 on hold and make some more games so they can actually start earning money again.

If I was developing some new hardware (and no, I'm not BTW - this is hypothetical, sorry) then I'd keep quiet until I was ready to actually unveil something, because there are far too many recent examples of plans being torn apart, by people who are so news-starved that they disect every piece of news, by people who are so used to be disappointed that they expect every new piece of news to contain some hidden disappointment and go looking for it, and by people who have their own agendas or issues that they pursue. (Including the strange people who just enjoy coming onto a forum and stirring things up to see what happens)

It's by far the better option to wait until you are ready. Sure a few people may get fed up and leave, but better that than to have a negative image of your product before it's even ready to be released.

There have been lots of suggestions for positive things people can do to advance the cause of OS4 while we wait for some hardware to run it one, but if none of those apply to you than all you can do and all you need to do is to work on your zen-like patience and strive to enhance your calm as you wile away the days.

Something interesting will happen sooner or later - it always does...

@thread

Where is it written that it shall be your ONLY computer?

Where is it written that it shall be your MAIN computer?

The only thing that I have seen written is that it shall be a FUN computer.

Find something it can do and have FUN doing it. For me it is music, OS4 and my A1 are busy most of the time in my music recording studio. Bars n Pipes and Audio Evolution are being used in the composition and recording of my band's original music and we are having FUN doing it.

I use a Windows PC to browse the web. I use a Mac to edit movies and record DVDs. If later OS4 gets applications that do these things better or are more fun to use then the ones I use now, I'll switch.

I don't use MS office at home. I don't use Open Office. If it was available for OS4, I still would not need it.

(As far as moving the platform forward, all I can do is give my financial support and user feedback to the developers who produce for OS4. If you cannot code, donate and buy, that's what I say.)

_________________
Amiga user since 1985.

@Oppressor

If you remember the words of the Frieden brothers about this topic, you will see the point. I understand, why they don't do it yet. Use the time until the day, when new hardware appears on the market.

I for myself would like to use OS4 on my 4000 too, but it's not published yet. No problem, the Miggy runs OS3.9 very happily, as well as my laptop. And it's no problem to use the programs I developed on these machines with an OS4 machine. Heck, I can even crosscompile on these machines to test some of the new features the OS4 API provides. If I weren't one of the "lucky ones", I would have to ask an A1-user to test them. Would this be a big problem?

Not really. Ask someone with an A1 here on AW and you will be supported. Even if you want to develop a closed source program. The only point is that you have to wait some time until you get results. Well, we have to wait for new hardware too...

Greetz

Hi @Legion

http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3709&forum=21

Probably he's lost in 'Midsommar'!

But, since the horse in your avatar doesn't have wings, I assume
you're trying to kickstart your Amiga!

_________________

@elwood

Waited this long, not much point giving up now.

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@whose

I don't see any point in arguing FOR it, as long as even the most basic questions are unsettled. After 5 years of development, why is the OS not available for existing hardware, and who is in charge of future developments like OS 4.1 and OS 5?

I've developed for 68k in the past and I'd continue to do so. But what are the genuine advantages of next-gen Amigas then? As I see it, 68k/OS3.x hasn't been only the past, but is the Amiga future as well, as this is the only source- and binary-compatible Amiga platform which works flawlessly on off-the-shelf computers.

If the logical consequence is to develop for 68k/OS3.x in 2006, why then develop at all? Doesn't this demonstrate a fundamental inability in regard to planning and resource management when after 5 years of development you are suggesting to develop on an emulator for an OS which was available in 1993?

> All of this work flawlessy in other communities, even smaller ones

Whatever communities you are referring to, the difference might be that these people have hardware and the prospect of a future.

_________________
Eagerly awaiting the X1000

@DoodooHead


Quote:

Find something it can do and have FUN doing it.

The best pragmatic thing I heard all year!

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@whose

> I for myself would like to use OS4 on my 4000 too, but it's not published yet. No problem, the Miggy runs OS3.9 very happily, as well as my laptop. And it's no problem to use the programs I developed on these machines with an OS4 machine. Heck, I can even crosscompile on these machines to test some of the new features the OS4 API provides. If I weren't one of the "lucky ones", I would have to ask an A1-user to test them. Would this be a big problem?

Not technically, which isn't my point really. I've been using cross-compiling for ages. I know that 68k software works on OS4, as well as on MorphOS -- in fact I've contributed to MorphOS, OS4 and AROS software without using these platforms.

> Not really. Ask someone with an A1 here on AW and you will be supported. Even if you want to develop a closed source program. The only point is that you have to wait some time until you get results. Well, we have to wait for new hardware too...

You see, it's always about waiting, waiting, waiting. The jews are for thousands of years waiting for their redeemer. The perfidiousness of the situation is that its non-arrival in the past doesn't disprove its arrival in the future, and this alone keeps them going.

_________________
Eagerly awaiting the X1000

@Oppressor

Quote:

Whatever communities you are referring to, the difference might be that these people have hardware and the prospect of a future.

I'd say there are a fair few communities out there that revolve around preserving and enjoying the spirit and ideals of the original platform, and where they have no new hardware, but are content with what they already have. If the Amiga had been laid to rest so finally then maybe the 'community' would be much better off for it, and there are probably many who are of a like mind in the Amiga community who wonder what all the fuss is about and are happy tinkering around with their old Amigas.

On the other hand there are those that find using other operating systems after the Amiga to be a hollow and empty experience and who wish to do everything they can (or could) do on more recent operating systems on their Amigas. Although some remarkable things have been achieved on the classic systems, pushing them far beyond what Commodore may have imagined they could do, there comes a point when to proceed further you need to update the OS properly. The fact that several attempts at this wound up being produced has been the major cause of friction in the community and a problem that many other communities do not have. As problems go, it's something of a gift, really and a testament to the effect that the Amiga has had on people, but the divisions have caused problems, that make the Amiga world seem gloomier than it ought to.

I really don't think it's fair to say there is no prospect of a future though. Even if the whole OS4 thing doesn't pan out (and I both believe and hope that this will not be the case) the Amiga will have a future. Given how things have been it may have several futures all at once! The Amiga will go on and on until the last surviving Amiga fan drops dead. At the moment it seems unlikely that we can acquire new Amiga fans, but who knows what the future may hold? Anything could happen.


You might say that the Amiga faces an uncertain future. But then that's been the case since about 1993, and more than ten years later here we all are. For me, any and all steps that may lead to an improvement to that status are a welcome thing, and OS4 has come a lot farther than many other attempts over the years (and a lot farther than many people predicted it would).

Put it this way, if someone announced that there was a new version of the Atari ST OS in development, and that it would be released as soon as the hardware to run it on was completed Atari fans would be doubtless over the moon. (Sure there'd be a few sceptics who refused to believe the news until they saw the OS with their own eyes, but most of them would be made very happy by the news.) It's only the long and tormented recent history of the Amiga that makes what should be a bright situation seem hopeless to some.

@Oppressor

Quote:

You have every right to remain silent if you have nothing to contribute.

You have every right to remain silent if you a) only contribute things like "xxx is stupid" and b) I don't know anything.

You are right, you don't know anything, yet you comment on it as if you do. If you don't have anything to contribute other than that, I am quite sure this discussion can go without your "contribution".

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

@Oppressor

Quote:

You see, it's always about waiting, waiting, waiting. The jews are for thousands of years waiting for their redeemer. The perfidiousness of the situation is that its non-arrival in the past doesn't disprove its arrival in the future, and this alone keeps them going.

I see your point. But we wait since 1993 for something new and every year there comes along something new. Even the AOne machines came along. So, why shouldn´t come another machine? If not, it´s all over and most AmigaOS fans will use their old 68K miggy until it dies, using new software that will be developed nonetheless. But if a new machine appears, it will for sure give it all a boost.

It´s your really own decision to participate in it in your really own way or not. Developing oss oder closed source or whatever. Or for MOS. Or nothing. But it is absolutely useless to complain and complain and complain...

Greetz

@madtrekker

Amen, brother

@elwood

I think that many are like me... I have not surrendered or given up, I just quit caring. I got my hopes up and got my feelings hurt too many times to care any more.

I want Amiga to make it. I would love to see a return...If reasonably priced hardware is released then I will be a customer...but I am not going to lose any sleep over it. Not anymore.


The ideal situation would be someone with deep pockets who remembers what Amiga is buying out Amiga and reviving her. I don't know if that could or would ever happen.

If any comeback happens, I will be happy...but I am not waiting for it.

My Athlon 64 system is not responsive and fun like an Amiga, but at 3Ghz, it runs modern software much faster than any Amiga config I could buy, and it cost me less than half the price I paid for my Cyberstorm PPC board in 1999. I am going to be happy with it until someone gives me something better.

The Amiga experience is a good reason to want Amiga...but the Amiga delivery in modern context leaves something to be desired.

@madtrekker

>> Whatever communities you are referring to, the difference might be that these people have hardware and the prospect of a future.

> I'd say there are a fair few communities out there that revolve around preserving and enjoying the spirit and ideals of the original platform, and where they have no new hardware, but are content with what they already have. If the Amiga had been laid to rest so finally then maybe the 'community' would be much better off for it, and there are probably many who are of a like mind in the Amiga community who wonder what all the fuss is about and are happy tinkering around with their old Amigas.

You are close to the point; the Amiga just hasn't been put on rest as it had been its natural destiny when Commodore went bankrupt. Many people felt like the party had just begun in 1994, and several companies revolved around its resurrection. Death came too suddenly to be properly realized. On the other hand, in 1994 I already felt like the Amiga was quickly losing ground and the only professional engagements remained in the games sector in which I was working at that time. That didn't affect me much personally, for me the Amiga was the be-all, end-all supercomputer of all times, and I kept working and playing with it.

The competition indeed felt hollow for a long time, but luckily for me there were the BSDs and Linux. At least these operating systems and their software didn't feel like they were constantly kidding and incapacitating me, they rather felt like awfully complicated and dangereously potent machinery, which kept me busy learning. Added to that that time heals many injuries, my Amiga mania was overcome by no later than 2000. I kept using my machines and from time to time updated my projects. PPC was never an option for me, as it was like flogging a dead horse with an overpriced, mostly heat-dissipating coprocessor board.

And here's the problem. In 2000 this chapter seemed concluded -- but the just founded ex-Amino Amiga Inc. startup suddenly offered a SDK for developing for a cross-platform multimedia OS and applications under the Amiga name and brand, which I found intriguing enough to jump on. As it turned out, it was a great idea in the hands of incompetent idiots, but instead of pushing it forwards Amiga Inc. suddenly resurrected the classic OS which it had publically abandoned before. Treason! By about that time I was already working on ports of my old projects to MorphOS. As if one PPC continuation of the classic wasn't enough, we suddenly had two of them in the works now, one constricting the other. The work I spent for DE was down the drain, when I realized that behind my back, my own community, my own breed turned against me and suddenly convinced Amiga Inc. to scrap DE in favour of such a braindead endeavour as a second PPC AmigaOS.

12 years after the demise of the mother company we could be an united community, happily tinkering with our antique 68k and PPC boards, praising each other for the glorious past, having taken development in our own hands -- if people hadn't pathologically followed the name and label and begged Amiga Inc. for another resurrection of the classic OS, which was in the works already. Now instead we have... nothing really? A failed AmigaDE, a rotting corpse holding name and rights, one AmigaOS that isn't allowed to be called AmigaOS, another one that has got no hardware, and a games company developer angrily barking at anything he dislikes in forum posts.

I'd say we've been sunk to abysmal depths and managed to almost completely destroy the once great heritage. I suggest developers to boycott Amiga Inc., MorphOS and OS4 alike, unless we can focus on a common target (be it Classic, be it AROS, be it OS4, just focus), and if we can't, forget it, go away, there's nothing to see, the party is over! Unity was what the Amiga community made great, way back. I remember that the oddities started to set in with Phase5 trying to take the lead in the vacuum that was left by Commodore. It seems that it was the damned PPC thing that disturbed the peace.

Once again, port the damned stuff over to the Pegasos, that would be a good starting point.

_________________
Eagerly awaiting the X1000

@elwood

I never have much time on my hands these days, but I have managed to support the Amiga community as best as I can:

- Started learning C in order to assist in the future with porting and also developing Amiga-only applications.

- While learning C, I've produced a couple of GUIs (MediaRequestor and VBAMUIGUI) using rxMUI.

- Made an icon set for music albums.

The reason I've done these things? Because I enjoy using the Amiga, I enjoy producing things on it, I even enjoy the odd email or PM from users who found my little projects handy.

As the Honda advert goes:
"Hate something
Change something
Hate something change something
Make something better"

_________________
After a decade away from the scene, I am back!

@amipal

Damn if I could learn C too. When I'll stop all the rest

_________________
Philippe 'Elwood' Ferrucci
Sam460 1.10 Ghz
AmigaOS 4 betatester
Amiga Translator Organisation

@elwood

To me, the Amiga is far from dead. It just has yet to be reborn.

For someone to leave the Amiga at this point in time is kind of like having an abortion in the 8th month of pregnancy. The OS is being polished at this point, as it is in a very usable state right now, and the hardware problem is being addressed. Others just say it's fat because it has been eating too much, others sit and poke it or say they want it out now or lets incubate it in a jar rather than it's mother. Well, it is just not time and you will have to wait, otherwise what we are waiting for is not going to properly happen.

How many just expected the hardware to be finished in a couple of weeks or even a couple of months. For those that think it is easy, try doing it yourself from scratch to production. It is probably not as easy as it looks.

It's kind of like having friends. If you complain to a friend every time you see them, pretty soon you are not going to have many friends. Same with the Amiga, if everybody complains all the time, then pretty soon, no Amiga. You would be surprised how an up-beat attitude can help. I'm not talking about programming or beta testing, I am just talking about selling Amiga to others who visit here and have a liking for the Amiga. All the negative stuff is going to do is drive people away from the platform. I think everyone already knows that we need hardware already. Why start marching to the funeral drum when the whole future is ahead of us. It is our challenge to make the best of what we do have and not to try and force things to happen that simply are not going to happen. Just be happy with our achievements so far and put some support behind the people that can give us new hardware. If your looking for an easy target to slam on you won't affect me one bit, because I am going to try to do everything I can to help the Amiga.

Pretty soon we will have hardware, a consumer version of OS 4, and whatever else comes after, we can deal with in a way that will help the Amiga, not tear it apart.