This thread is to continue the conversation started in a Hyperion thread from HyperionMP making a negative comment about cars that are "American Made".

original comment here:

http://tinyurl.com/cmcsrw

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 02:37 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 02:36 PM.

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@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote: @fairlanefastback Hyundai is Korean, Toyota is Japanese. No-one thinks of them as American cars.

True, but thats part of my point on perception. HyperiomMP made a comment negatively looking at cars that are American made. He did not say cars from American companies. Thats why I asked for clarification from him. My point is that almost all car brands today can hardly be looked at as being from one nation. Parts are sourced from all over, designs are shared in trade between entirely different companies, etc. I'm curious if he was referring negatively to the abilities and/or work ethic of my nation's people ultimately.

Jaguar and Land Rover, are they English or Indian now that Tata owns them? Is Volvo Swedish, or is it American since Ford owns it, and will it become Chinese shortly when it likely passes hands again? Is a Ford built in Mexico and sold in the U.S. an American or a Mexican car?

In regard to AOS 4.0, should we Americans scoff at its immaturity as a modern OS because it is currently "European made"? (That would be silly, just as I think its silly to scoff at any car that was made through the effort and toil of American labor).

Quote:

Ford is the only North American manufacturer that is present in the NZ marketplace (see here for some market share data*), and they're seen as rather plain boring cars.

Thats a shame, as you have some rather cool Ford of Australia designed models there. Like these models or not, they are certainly not plain or boring. Again, does that make a FPV Super Pursuit, a car you can't even get in the U.S., was not designed here, and is not built here an American car, just because the financial masters of the effort are here?

http://www.teamhutchinsonford.co.nz/newfpv.asp

The FPV line and Falcons have a rich history outside of the U.S. in Australia. A country which has the closest kinship to us in cars. Probably because, much like us they have a lot of big open roads across their country. Europe's geography is simply different, the age of many of its roads, much older, much harder to traverse with a large car. There are many practical reasons why countries like the U.S. and Australia have embraced larger vehicles for so long.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 03:20 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 02:52 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 02:43 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 02:39 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 02:38 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 02:37 PM.

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@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote: @fairlanefastback They are drinking too much gasoline and polluting air much more than EU cars. A 4.0L engine that can go max 160kmh? What`s the point of such machine? The cheapest Opel corsa 1.6 can do more...

Actually the Ford Fiesta has either a 1.4L or 1.6L engine, depending on your choice of transmission. It does not have a 4.0L. So you make no point at all.

Especially since the Ford Fiesta is guess what, a re-badged (but slightly nicer I hear) Mazda 2!

http://blogs.automobilemag.com/6512726/auto-shows/2009-new-york-ford-fiesta-vs-mazda-2/index.html

Quote:

the quality of the materials – the soft, grained dashpad, the smooth operation of the controls -- makes the Fiesta feel much more upscale than its competitors, including the Mazda2. That’s a good thing for us Americans, as we’re receiving the Ford and not the Mazda. Although these examples are an odd mix of German- and UK-spec parts, Ford tells us nearly 90 percent of the content seen here -- i.e. Bluetooth interface, premium audio system, etc. – will end up on Fiestas bound for the New World.

Also notice, "German and UK spec parts". Again, what gives a car its nationality exactly these days??

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 03:07 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 03:06 PM.

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@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote: Actually, I have a Ford Model A (not garaged here or driven very often), too, but Ford doesn't make them like they used to. Let me know if any of those Ford Fiestas are still running 80 years from now.

Cool!

I often drive a 1972 Pontiac that I bought a couple of years ago to work. Very few 2009 model year cars are likely to be running in 80 years, whether they are "American" or not. Too many custom computers in the new stuff, too many hard parts to continue to manufacture that far into the future likely.

Its the simplicity of the design that helps keep Model A's something that can run so long. And by extension cars through the 70s still are simple enough for people to be home mechanics on for many things, where parts are easy and cheap to make (at least mechanical parts).

Which makes me think back to Star Trek III...

"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!"

- Scotty, explaining how the removal of four small parts can cripple Excelsior

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@fairlanefastback

Ok, perhaps he meant that cars that are generally sold and marketed in the United States are not great?

Regards,
Rude!

EDIT - let me clarify that, I'm not saying that they are or they aren't. There seems to be this stigma attached to American cars that they are wallowy, bulky and handle like a crock of, well something unsavoury.

Whether that's true or not these days is something to be discussed - but for style, I think American cars win on a lot of fronts.

Last edited by Rudei on 14-Apr-2009 at 05:15 PM.

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@Rudei

Quote:

Rudei wrote: @fairlanefastback Ok, perhaps he meant that cars that are generally sold and marketed in the United States are not great?

But those cars (whats generally sold and marketed in the U.S.) would be the Toyota Camry and Corolla , the Honda Accord and Civic, and the Nissan Altima. Those are the top selling cars here. And some are made here to one degree or another.

http://corporate.honda.com/america/facilities.aspx
http://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_page_order_int/2/article_id_int/1153

Quote:

There seems to be this stigma attached to American cars that they are wallowy, bulky and handle like a crock of, well something unsavoury.

Yes, a currently unfair stigma. My buddy's 2005 Mustang has been as solid as a rock, with great performance, great styling, and great dependability. Less likely to get into a crash as you can get out the way more easily then with a Smart for Two, a Versa, a Yaris, or a Fit. And you won't end up like this (short of a Hummer hitting you):
http://www.cnbc.com/id/30209086/site/14081545

Same goes for someone else I know with a 2007 Chrysler 300 Hemi car.

Unfair stigmas also occur for other non- U.S. makers. Hyundai is considered crap by many in the U.S. Yet in recent years its had some of the best ratings around for dependability and price. Plus it had one of the best warranties here. I'd happily drive an Azera or Genesis as an everday car.

Quote:

Whether that's true or not these days is something to be discussed - but for style, I think American cars win on a lot of fronts.

I agree!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 07:56 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 07:55 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 07:45 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 14-Apr-2009 at 07:44 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @Hans Quote: Hans wrote: @fairlanefastback Hyundai is Korean, Toyota is Japanese. No-one thinks of them as American cars. True, but thats part of my point on perception. HyperiomMP made a comment negatively looking at cars that are American made. He did not say cars from American companies. Thats why I asked for clarification from him. My point is that almost all car brands today can hardly be looked at as being from one nation. Parts are sourced from all over, designs are shared in trade between entirely different companies, etc. I'm curious if he was referring negatively to the abilities and/or work ethic of my nation's people ultimately. Jaguar and Land Rover, are they English or Indian now that Tata owns them? Is Volvo Swedish, or is it American since Ford owns it, and will it become Chinese shortly when it likely passes hands again? Is a Ford built in Mexico and sold in the U.S. an American or a Mexican car? In regard to AOS 4.0, should we Americans scoff at its immaturity as a modern OS because it is currently "European made"? (That would be silly, just as I think its silly to scoff at any car that was made through the effort and toil of American labor). Quote: Ford is the only North American manufacturer that is present in the NZ marketplace (see here for some market share data*), and they're seen as rather plain boring cars. Thats a shame, as you have some rather cool Ford of Australia designed models there. Like these models or not, they are certainly not plain or boring. Again, does that make a FPV Super Pursuit, a car you can't even get in the U.S., was not designed here, and is not built here an American car, just because the financial masters of the effort are here? http://www.teamhutchinsonford.co.nz/newfpv.asp The FPV line and Falcons have a rich history outside of the U.S. in Australia. A country which has the closest kinship to us in cars. Probably because, much like us they have a lot of big open roads across their country. Europe's geography is simply different, the age of many of its roads, much older, much harder to traverse with a large car. There are many practical reasons why countries like the U.S. and Australia have embraced larger vehicles for so long.

Also, Australia is the third largest LNG producer in the Asia–Pacific region and the fifth largest LNG producer in the world. In terms of styling, Oz consumers lean towards European, hence the large cars (e.g. Ford Falcon, Holden(GM) Commodore) designed in Oz are styled in European.

In terms of unit sales, American styled Toyota Avalon failed in Oz.

For 2009 Vehicle Dependability Study
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/ascending/page-#page-anchor

German brand Volkswagen comes at lucky second last.

Last edited by Hammer on 14-Apr-2009 at 10:37 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Apr-2009 at 10:28 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Apr-2009 at 10:25 PM.

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Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @Hans True, but thats part of my point on perception. HyperiomMP made a comment negatively looking at cars that are American made. He did not say cars from American companies.

Those sound like things I might say, but I don't dare in case I get reported or complained about.

Can't say I'm a car geek, except I watch things like Top Gear and Driven. I know Skoda used to have a bad reputation, which they took into account when advertising their new, improved range of cars. "It's a Skoda. Honest."

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@RoqueFort

Uhuh, but Skoda is not American. It's owned by VW and is manufactured in Prague (Czech Republic)

Regards,
Rude!

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@Hammer

Quote:

Also, Australia is the third largest LNG producer in the Asia–Pacific region and the fifth largest LNG producer in the world. In terms of styling, Oz consumers lean towards European, hence the large cars (e.g. Ford Falcon, Holden(GM) Commodore) designed in Oz are styled in European.

Thats an interesting perspective. To me a Holden Monaro is much more Ameican-like in styling than European. Indeed in was the basis for our 2004 thru 2006 Pontiac GTO.

Also the Aussie Ford Falcon, again I see as more American-like than European. Classic models like the XA etc are muscle cars to be sure, which is an American/Australian car tradition, not a European one. And current Ford Falcons are the basis for current Ford Australia BOSS engine equipped cars. Again, a performance moniker with an American/Australian history.

To me, Europe is noted more for its small, nimble, extremely well handling cars. And due to longer exposure to high fuel prices, open more to smaller engines with turbo-charging. Indeed, Ford tried to introduce this type of European power concept to the U.S. in the past with the Ford Mustang SVO from 1984 to 1986. And the small size of vehicles as a tradition in Europe had nothing to do with being "green". The tradition comes from there being less space to park in many places, smaller roads to navigate in many areas, etc. Since the U.S.'s roads are to a great extent, from the 1950s its a bit different then trying to navigate cobblestone streets winding through neighborhoods with building that were constructed hundreds of years ago. Thats certainly not all of Europe, but it is a big consideration in car design there it seems.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 15-Apr-2009 at 06:21 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 15-Apr-2009 at 06:20 PM.

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Quote:

Rudei wrote: @RoqueFort Uhuh, but Skoda is not American. It's owned by VW and is manufactured in Prague (Czech Republic)

Yeah, I knew, those were separate statements.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

To me, Europe is noted more for its small, nimble, extremely well handling cars. And due to longer exposure to high fuel prices, open more to smaller engines with turbo-charging. Indeed, Ford tried to introduce this type of European power concept to the U.S. in the past with the Ford Mustang SVO from 1984 to 1986. And the small size of vehicles as a tradition in Europe had nothing to do with being "green". The tradition comes from there being less space to park in many places, smaller roads to navigate in many areas, etc. Since the U.S.'s roads are to a great extent, from the 1950s its a bit different then trying to navigate cobblestone streets winding through neighborhoods with building that were constructed hundreds of years ago. Thats certainly not all of Europe, but it is a big consideration in car design there it seems.

I think you make quite a good an interesting couple of points there:

Fuel prices - certainly us Europeans have had prices very high for at least the last 25 years, possibly longer

Road condition and practicality - I thought about this a lot and yes, I think you are right. The condition of a lot of roads in more urbanised areas would facilitate that cars traditionally being associated with, well American-sized for want of a better term, would struggle round a lot of towns/cities in Europe.

Examples - some of London's streets are pretty tight, getting big cars round there and parking etc would be a nightmare as evidenced on Top Gear recently using big European Cars (a Merc and Bentley). Also, I went to Spain recently, I was given a crappy Ford Fiesta rental car but was grateful I had it when navigating some of the Spanish streets, there's no way a Lincoln or Hummer would have got round there.

Never thought of it like that, thanks for pointing out what is, on the face of it, a pretty obvious practical reason!

Regards,
Rude!

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Link... "American Made?"

A lengthy but informative artical on the question "just what is an American car?" I own a toyota sienna and camry. Two cars that top the list as "American". Both higher on the list than even a ford mustang.

To bad they don't included the numbers for my 1969 American Motors Javelin. :)

Any one bashing American made cars is bashing a long list of international companies and probably lacking the real data.

Plaz

@Plaz

Quote:

Plaz wrote: Link... "American Made?" A lengthy but informative artical on the question "just what is an American car?" I own a toyota sienna and camry. Two cars that top the list as "American". Both higher on the list than even a ford mustang. To bad they don't included the numbers for my 1969 American Motors Javelin. :) Any one bashing American made cars is bashing a long list of international companies and probably lacking the real data.

The Toyota Camry existed outside of the US for decades before the US market even got to see it. Camry's sold in the USA may be assembled in the USA, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a Japanese manufacturer manufacturing a European styled car in several different countries.

I don't know if the original comment meant cars manufactured in the USA, or American cars. I certainly think that US manufacturers can make things with as high a quality as anyone else. What I do think is that GM, Ford & co. have created some of their own problems. Here are a few issues:
- American manufacturers focused on pick-up and straight line performance whilst European cars had to perform well on windy streets (in NZ, we have both windy and long straight stretches, but corner handling is important). You can feel the difference in handling and balance between, say, a BMW and a low end Honda/Ford. US cars are seen as having poor handling
- American manufacturers focused on large cars with big engines (makes sense, because this is what the American market was after). People elsewhere do want performance, but also want fuel efficiency, so lighter more fuel efficient vehicles are more sought after
- It took a while for US car manufacturers to adopt traction/stability control, which was developed primarily in Europe. This resistance only added to the perception that US cars can't handle corners
- When the price of oil rose, GM, Ford & co. weren't ready for the wave of buyers seeking lighter cars and hybrids. Toyota clearly benefited from this
- Europeans mostly drive diesel cars because it's cheaper (my understanding is that their diesel fuel is cleaner than what is offered in the US, so they can meet emissions regulations). Diesel cars aren't that popular in the US (although this is changing) so the selection isn't that great.

Whether the perceptions are true or not, the perception does matter. I've noticed that both GM and Ford are working on Hybrids, more fuel efficient vehicles, etc. However, they're lagging behind, and they still have to get rid of that reputation for poor (corner) handling.

As for American made Toyotas, Hyundais, etc., they're going to be as good/bad as the same models built anywhere else.

Hans

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@Hans

Quote:

Europeans mostly drive diesel cars because it's cheaper (my understanding is that their diesel fuel is cleaner than what is offered in the US, so they can meet emissions regulations). Diesel cars aren't that popular in the US (although this is changing) so the selection isn't that great.

Popular perception here is that diesels are dirty and smelly with not a lot of power. Basically an incorrect perception for the latest models. Selection sucks. But worse, at least in the NYC metro area not every gas station has diesel. And diesel is not as cheap as it used to be either here. For the well read, there has been a good bunch of articles in the past couple of years in various publications in the U.S. trying to debunk the myths.

You'll see a TON of BMWs in this area. But I don't think I've seen a single 335d anywhere on the road here. I've seen diesel VWs and Mercedes here and there over time, but they are very very rare.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 21-Apr-2009 at 12:37 AM.

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@Hans

Quote:

People elsewhere do want performance, but also want fuel efficiency, so lighter more fuel efficient vehicles are more sought after

Certainly the laws of countries come into play. Take VW. They have small engines because Germany taxed engines via displacement.

Quote:

I've noticed that both GM and Ford are working on Hybrids, more fuel efficient vehicles, etc. However, they're lagging behind,

Ford owns nearly as many patents as Toyota for electric vehicles. Toyota licenses some patents of Ford and vice versa. While Ford didn't do cars initally they did the Escape SUV. Considering Americans tend to perfer SUV this made a bit of sense. Ir should have had more appeal. Turns out the market prefers the Toyota Prius. I'd say because the design speaks 'hybrid'. The hybrid Honda Civic or hybrid Toyota Camry have not had the appeal of the Prius. IMO, fashion statement those w/ a hybrid want you to know it's a hybrid.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

And due to longer exposure to high fuel prices, open more to smaller engines with turbo-charging. Indeed, Ford tried to introduce this type of European power concept to the U.S. in the past with the Ford Mustang SVO from 1984 to 1986.

I don't know if this is quite correct. The Ford Mustang Turbo existed in 1980.

As for Ford European wasn't that the purpose of the failed Mekur experiment in the US?

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Hans Quote: People elsewhere do want performance, but also want fuel efficiency, so lighter more fuel efficient vehicles are more sought after Certainly the laws of countries come into play. Take VW. They have small engines because Germany taxed engines via displacement.

True. In some countries you may also find a number of three-wheeled cars because there was a per-wheel tax.

Quote:

Quote: I've noticed that both GM and Ford are working on Hybrids, more fuel efficient vehicles, etc. However, they're lagging behind, Ford owns nearly as many patents as Toyota for electric vehicles. Toyota licenses some patents of Ford and vice versa. While Ford didn't do cars initally they did the Escape SUV. Considering Americans tend to perfer SUV this made a bit of sense. Ir should have had more appeal. Turns out the market prefers the Toyota Prius. I'd say because the design speaks 'hybrid'. The hybrid Honda Civic or hybrid Toyota Camry have not had the appeal of the Prius. IMO, fashion statement those w/ a hybrid want you to know it's a hybrid.

I suppose that my statement was a bit misleading given that Ford has been working on hybrids for several years now and does have a few on the US market. However, Toyota did embrace hybrid technology before Ford, and reaped the benefits of being ahead. I've seen an article dated from a few years back saying that Toyota was helping Ford out in this area. I'm guessing that they meant that they were trading patent rights (very common in the auto industry) because Toyota's not going to just help out for the fun of it, but it also suggests that Toyota was ahead.

Hans

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@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: And due to longer exposure to high fuel prices, open more to smaller engines with turbo-charging. Indeed, Ford tried to introduce this type of European power concept to the U.S. in the past with the Ford Mustang SVO from 1984 to 1986. I don't know if this is quite correct. The Ford Mustang Turbo existed in 1980. As for Ford European wasn't that the purpose of the failed Mekur experiment in the US?

There was a turbo four in 1980, but it was something like 130hp. And the 1980 Mustang was not considered a machine with anything special in the handling dept., nor was it at all marketed as competing with European vehicles in any of these aspects. The 1980 turbo four existed to be fuel efficient without having utterly pathetic numbers, but certainly nothing at all impressive and I would say was born out of fuel shortage crisis concerns more than owing itself to any European power concept.

On the other hand the 1984 turbo four in the Mustang SVO made something like 175hp, the chassis for the SVO had a better handling package than the average Mustang and had four wheel disc brakes. And when introduced it was specifically positioned as a car trying to take on European concepts and standards. I remember it from the 1984 NY Auto Show program I kept for many years from attending the show that year. (And by 1986 it was above 200 hp).

Ford brought the Merkur brand in shortly after in 1985.

Basically in choosing a 1984 Mustang, for the first time there was reason as an enthusiast in the U.S. to possibly choose a four over the eight cylinder.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 21-Apr-2009 at 05:21 AM.

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@fairlanefastback

(Congrats on the promotion btw)

Having owned a number of American and European as well as Japanese cars, all I can do is offer my opinion.

All the American cars I've owned or driven are poorly made. And by that I mean, the materials are cheap and tacky, even in the more prestigious models. You can tell you are in an American made car on a hot day because of the smell of cheap plastic in the air, especialy if its new. You can detect a smell when you place your nose on the dashboard plastic on a cool day, you'll notice that smell is absent from European and Japaneese cars. Also European and Japaneese cars don't use that plastic that turns white when you bend it, nor do they use plastic panels on the body of the car that you can push in a number of inches with your thumb.

You must be noticing I'm saying the word plastic a lot. Thats because American car companies like to use the stuff, a lot.

Also, the American car industry shares (or at least shared - things may change because of the economic climate) a major problem that plagued the workforce of the UK in the 70's which is the high influence of the trade unions. This is too long a subject to get into on this thread, but a summery is that the quality of the work done suffers. You still get "Friday cars" in the States (Thats cars that have been quickly finished because its knocking off time, which means huge problems down the road for the owners).

What transformed the European car industry was the far eastern practices which automated much of the process and stopped the emphisis on teams getting bonuses for individual cars. Because the trade unions are or were still strong in the States, this has been largely resisted.

I don't think the American companies can't build good quality cars, they did in the 50's. I think its just down to cost cutting which because of union pressure, has been directed at the materials the cars are built from, rather than the people who are doing the building. And Ford are able to build good quality cars in Europe where they aree able to adapt to asian practices without union interference.

American cars were designed for wide highways and for long journeys on cruise. Now the German cars do these jobs better. I wish and hope thing improve, because driving along the long lonesome highways in a Beamber or Merc just doesn't have the same kind of romance.

Still, if it means anything, I fly an American airplane. A Lycoming is a very resuring sound when you are flying over lots and lots of water.*


* Even if I did have to sit in Iceland for 4 days waiting on a spare part after it stopped being so reassuring.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 25-Apr-2009 at 12:38 PM.

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