@Hyperionmp

Quote:

You're completely missing the point, thinking in terms of desktop, an increasingly irrelevant and artificial concept.

Not to someone who wants a desktop, it isn't.

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Here for the whimpering end

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote: You're completely missing the point, thinking in terms of desktop,

...

Yep, I'm thinking in terms of Desktop, but that happened to BE the point.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone

Quote:

If AmigaOS were x86 based, would developers have to wonder if the installed base had a cap to it, as it seems to now?

Certainly, Amithlon, being x86 based, didn't change a thing.

Quote:

?

The point is, it seems to be the general consensus that if a program is already running on CPU xxx, then the operating system would be meaningless. This is of course completely wrong. Therefore, it doesn't matter if a program is already available on MacOS, it doesn't make porting substantially easier. Likewise, only because a potential AmigaOS x86 already runs on x86, it wouldn't make porting any easier, because the major obstacle are API related; endian issues are rather minor.

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Does a port being "easy" justify a port to a platform you can't buy a board for?

Someone wanting to port a program to OS 4 already has the hardware, so this point is totally moot.

Again, everybody seems to think that if AmigaOS ran on x86, we would suddenly have a million users again. I wonder where you get these ideas from.

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I could be wrong, but it looks like when OS4 is released, there won't be any boards readily available for purchase to run it.

You are wrong.

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If the boards were readily available and cheap, an x86 port might be moot, but they're not, and it's not.

You simply don't get it, do you?

It seems to be a general problem to make you people understand that the Desktop market cannot dictate the selection of CPU. I would really like to think otherwise, but I don't see any bigger market for AmigaOS on x86.

The major focus must remain the embedded market. We do desktop because we like it and we need a platform, but in the end, the desktop will never finance the project. The embedded market will.

In the embedded market, x86 is non-existent.

But even if it wheren't for the embedded market, I would still firmly belive in PowerPC and the CELL as the future of AmigaOS. It is my opinion (and I don't really care if Steve Jobs says otherwise) that CELL will be the next big thing in multimedia and desktop computing.

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@T_Bone

What sarcasm?

I thought that was what you're pointing out and I somehow missed the punch line. Anyways...

Again, WHO is talking about supporting multiple configurations? I'm certainly not, The PPC port certainly doesn't, you are the only one who mentioned supporting multiple hardware, so this man you are knocking down is a straw one.

Huh??? I think it would be hard to go x86 and not be pulled into supporting multiple mobos/chipsets. We'll see how Apple fairs on this, and yes, they'll be quite the experiment for this sort of thing.

Whichever board they decide to support obviously. Choice isn't a problem, it's a solution. Right NOW it's a problem.

The problem will lie in where people will have different agendas on what should be supported and why. The same debate, but different subject.

If there were a reasonably priced PPC board, reasonable features, reasonable support, reasonable warranty, reasonable upgrade path, reasonable availability, GO FOR IT! I'm reasonable. I don't see a reasonable solution here though.

Economy of scale will bring the prices you and I want. But there has to be demand for the Amiga first before prices will fall.

The embedded market is more cutthroat than the Desktop market. Even Microsoft are sweating their junk over the competition.

It looks like Genesi is all for it. Microsoft will eventually be successful, but there is a lot more dynamic competition out there in the embedded space.

"One more production run" isn't going to solve the hardware availability. The Cell could, but IMHO it's a pie in the sky idea. I'm willing to be proven wrong here, but if it were up to me, I'd go with something with my feet planted firmly on the ground. Eyetechs teething problems with the PPC boards are still being resolved, an unknown, untested, unproven, brand spanking new Cell architecture is a risky proposition.

I feel that if Sony was pleading with Apple to give the Cell a look for its desktops, then there must be some sort of desktop push for the Cell. The Cell could be the return of an AGA chipset that most Amigans want anyways, because that's what made an Amiga an Amiga. As far as risk is concerned; the Amiga platform is ripe for a risky adventure and it's perfect timing for such.

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@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote: @T_Bone Overlooked this gem of yours: "Developers are hesitant to port/make applications to a capped base, as it means less sales, and no market growth above the cap. See the current Papyrus office situation for an example, they only required preorders for the capped-base markets. The Pegasos didn't require a preorder for it's port." First of all, I can cite counter examples.

You could, but I think it would be silly to try and prove to me that hardware availability that's capping the installed base of AmigaOS4 users isn't a concern in the eyes of developers who need to sell as many copies of their software as possible.

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Secondly, Titan has been a very vocal pro MorphOS company (and anti AmigaOne company)

That may be true.

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which explains their hesitation to support OS 4.

They're expecting (?)60 sales in order to do a port. That sounds reasonable.

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You simply don't have all the facts (indeed, you lack most of the facts as is evident from your comparison of Amithlon to AmigaOS 4).

If you think this is about AmigaOS4 vs. Amithlon, you've not only danced away from the point, you've tripped over the ropes and fallen out of the ring.

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@CodeSmith

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Once OS4 is done, it should be just a few months to write the necessary device drivers and HAL (assuming that OS4 is mostly C and not assembler)

Most of it is C, though the biggest assembler part is about 20000 lines of emulator.

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Since OS4 would be written to run only on those boards,

Yawn. Not the "restrict to one board" story again. FYI, try to buy the same PC board you have now in half a year, and you will find this to be rather difficult.

I also don't see how you could explain to the average user why he needs to buy an extra board. Someone will say "but I want an NForce board", or "I want Opteron" blah blah blah. Just look at it now: "I want a Pegasos version". "I want a MimiMac version". Do you honestly think this would work? I don't. Saying "No" will scare them away. Disgrunted customers are not a sound basis for business.

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If Eyetech and Hyperion want to expand the amiga brand, they will have no choice but to do something like this.

No choice? Just watch us.

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The average Joe on the street (or Mr Joe Industrialist) is going to take a look at a $800 uA1, compare it to any comparable boards on the market, and wonder why we're using hard to find hardware to run the OS on.

Joe Industrialist? Industry customers have other priorities. For one thing, a mass market deal will not cost $800. Secondly, there are other factors than initial cost - PowerPC's low power consumption and heat make it ideal for larger server farms.

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@T_Bone

Quote:

Like I said, the reason people think (including developers, who make the software) that x86 means more software is because there's no cap on the installed base.

Dreaming again? Why would a windows user want to use any AmigaOS? Not in the state we're in right now. Just because there are X people out there doesn't mean you have X people target market.

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Hell, if we picked *ONE X86 MOTHERBOARD*, and it only ran on that ONE BOARD, we'd be in better shape than we are now with regards to hardware price, availability, warranty, service, performance, and peace of mind that the chipset vendors website will still be there next month.

See my other reply. Try to guarantee that the thing will actually not be discontinued four months later.

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@Helgis

Why did I correctly guess you started this thread?
I won't even read the comments, as they are all
often repeated here, both yeah and nay...

Until a business plan that includes the'computer'
end of a system is revealed, or some fabulous and
SOON buyable mystery platform is revealed, the
fact that Hyperion slave away at OS4 for a few hundred
15 year old cyberstorms and blizzards as their sales
target, simply defies reality, logic, and common sense.
As a labor of love, even this can be justified...BUT...
it is my lonely opinion, that for the sake of love, if not
finance...

stop work on OS4 now, port to Mac to the same level
as update 3, then finish OS4 on both, releasing them
in post-beta together, with smaller significant patches
along the way, to keep the natives restless, thus
delaying OS4 30-60 days, but enabling thousands to buy
Macs, and BUY pre-release-for Mac-OS4, generating
income, user-base, and publicity.

now pullleeeze, refrain from LICENSE driveltalk,
because the three partners involved all know whats
going on behind the scenes, and how ridiculous it
all appears on stage. Get on the phone, hash out the
terms, and get the job done.

Larry, Moe and Currly, er, hyperion, amigaInc and
eyetech, the clock is ticking.

Helgis, keep cheerful, it can be fun and rewarding
figuring out linux! If I revealed the 3 command lines
it takes to get kppp in touch with my usb modem, you'd
be convinced linux hackers should be jailed, and I
should be returned to the loony bin, for using their
products! 8')

@Rogue

I'm with you on everything you say. But..

I have a PC board (Abit Socket 478) which have been for sale
since 2002 and still is. If the manufacturer makes a good cheap
board it will stay in production 2-3 years atleast. But you are
correct in that most will be upgraded to a newer model about
every year or so. Also a stop in production would be totally out of
your control. In case you would have to update the HAL for a new
motherboard.

But seeing AmigaOne is in its 3:rd revision board in 4 years I don't
really see a problem here? Eyetech change boards as much as PC
makers do. Almost anyway.
Although with the same northbridge.

But if you have other points like a business plan which incorporates
the embedded market in which you will use PPC then say as much.
No need to exaggerate the PC situation.
I see HyperionMP has written that this IS the case, so everything about
moving to X86 is really moot.. Isn't it?

We, the Amiga users, are with you anyway. Whatever platform you
choose. We just love AmigaOS, otherwise why would we be here?

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[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case

Avatar by HNL_DK!

@Rogue

Quote:

Yawn. Not the "restrict to one board" story again. FYI, try to buy the same PC board you have now in half a year, and you will find this to be rather difficult.

Not to put too fine a point on it, we've been told pretty much this about the uA1 by Alan.

Quote:

I also don't see how you could explain to the average user why he needs to buy an extra board. Someone will say "but I want an NForce board", or "I want Opteron" blah blah blah. Just look at it now: "I want a Pegasos version". "I want a MimiMac version". Do you honestly think this would work? I don't. Saying "No" will scare them away. Disgrunted customers are not a sound basis for business.

If a multi-billion dollar company like Apple think they can get away with it, I don't think it's as bad an idea as all that.

Note that I'm not necessarily saying that we should go x86, show me a PPC board that has a future and I'll be more than happy to let Bill and Steve (Jobs) keep x86 to themselves.

If there was to be an x86 port, then going with the mini ITX from Via would be a good choice. Its cheap, small and has common hardware on several different boards. But, just because its on an x86 doesn't mean the Amiga community will explode in size.

However, I would hope the Amiga would choose to be different and go CEL.

I dream of a system that doesn't require proprietary graphics, audio etc., so instead of replacing your video card or sound card etc., you just flash update.

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Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.

@Rogue
Quote:

Joe Industrialist? Industry customers have other priorities. For one thing, a mass market deal will not cost $800. Secondly, there are other factors than initial cost - PowerPC's low power consumption and heat make it ideal for larger server farms.

There is just one thing thats been bugging me for ages that no one has ever answered, and this is a question for both "sides" really, and has nothing to do with the hardware either.

For what reason would a business that requires an embedded OS choose to pay licence fees for a proprietary operating system such as OS4/MorphOS, when they could use GNU/Linux or a BSD operating system for so much less TCO, or even an already established realtime proprietary OS such as VxWorks or QNX?

It doesn't make any sense to me. I need convincing of the benefits that such a company would recieve from OS4/MorphOS that they wouldn't get from another OS, which would lead them to possibly pay more money overall for a system that is unproven.




edit: I hate HTML!!!!!

Last edited by nicholas on 27-Jun-2005 at 02:14 AM.

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Ya Husayn!

@all

OS4 is a main choice for use on embedded systems (and thats how you need to view micro-A1-I with regard to industrial customers) because 1. small footprint, 2. doesn't need a fast power hungry processor - a relatively low end G3 will do nicely for many things and 3. its actually usable by people who haven't got time to work out Linux/(insert other OS here). Once OS4 is finished, then some inductrial customers could become much more interested.

As for OS4 on x86 - what would be the point? It would just get swallowed up. Why would an x86 user ditch XP to run AmigaOS4? Doesnt make any sense. Sorry.

OS4 on PS3 is something I would like to see even if its unofficial (from Sonys point of view) as it would catch the mainstream publics attention if nothing else.

However, considering what I understand about Cell (and I am no engineer, mind), it sounds like an Amiga on a chip to me from a hardware point of view, so getting the OS on it only seems natural...

Last edited by SvenHarvey on 27-Jun-2005 at 02:56 AM.

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Sven Harvey
Amiga Mart in Micro Mart, Geekology 4M@, and other places
A1000, A2000, A1500 A500, CDTV, A500+, A600, A4000, A1200, CD32, AT A1200HD, A1-XE

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @T_Bone Quote: If AmigaOS were x86 based, would developers have to wonder if the installed base had a cap to it, as it seems to now? Certainly, Amithlon, being x86 based, didn't change a thing.

Now you understand. Amithlon is a capped market. No new Amithlon users are appearing as Amithlon can't be sold.

No new AmigaOS4 users can appear if the hardware can't be produced and sold. So now you understand what a "capped" market is.

(although in Amithlons case, the cap wasn't due to the hardware)

Quote:

The point is, it seems to be the general consensus that if a program is already running on CPU xxx, then the operating system would be meaningless. This is of course completely wrong. Therefore, it doesn't matter if a program is already available on MacOS, it doesn't make porting substantially easier. Likewise, only because a potential AmigaOS x86 already runs on x86, it wouldn't make porting any easier, because the major obstacle are API related; endian issues are rather minor.

?

The question mark thingy was there because I don't understand who you were talking to. I never said anything relating to the above, ever.

Quote:

Quote: Does a port being "easy" justify a port to a platform you can't buy a board for? Someone wanting to port a program to OS 4 already has the hardware, so this point is totally moot.

Don't developers want customers? Certainly we arn't going to lure developers to AmigaOS4 by convincing them that only THEY will be able to use the port they've just worked on, for use on their one board. C'mon guys, I'm being serious here. Developers need a market.

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Again, everybody seems to think that if AmigaOS ran on x86, we would suddenly have a million users again. I wonder where you get these ideas from.

No, what i am saying is that you have a hardware distribution/manufacturing bottleneck. You need to solve this problem, whatever way it takes to do so, or else you won't get the installed base to attract developers.

Picking on one possible solution that you don't like (in your case x86 seems to be your poison), doesn't solve the problem you have.

Quote:

Quote: I could be wrong, but it looks like when OS4 is released, there won't be any boards readily available for purchase to run it. You are wrong.

I hope I am wrong, but the strongest reassurance I see coming from Eyetech is a "Maybe"

Quote:

Quote: If the boards were readily available and cheap, an x86 port might be moot, but they're not, and it's not. You simply don't get it, do you?

I've stated several times now, I *understand* your yada yada, I just don't *appreciate* it.

Do you understand what I mean when I say that?
It means I only care about the Desktop. Your customers here bought Desktops. We talk about Desktops here. Desktop hardware, Desktop Software, Desktop applications, Desktop cases, 20 questions about Desktops, etc etc etc...

By "I don't *appreciate* it" I'm using the word in the context not of gratitude, but of indifference. I couldn't care less about embeded stuff, so why you keep dragging embedded stuff into Desktop conversations on a Desktop oriented thread on a Desktop oriented board filled with Desktop using customers, trying to convince them that Desktop related issues should be sacrificed and compromised for Embedded scenarios, I dont know.

I think maybe what you should do is create an EmbeddedWorld.net and y'all Embedded fans could go there and leave us Desktop Amiga fans in peace. (j/k) Most here would only have a passing, if any, curiosity about the embedded stuff.

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It seems to be a general problem to make you people understand that the Desktop market cannot dictate the selection of CPU. I would really like to think otherwise, but I don't see any bigger market for AmigaOS on x86.

It doesn't necessarily have to BE x86, but it does necessarily have to be something reasonably priced, reasonably available, etc... x86 is simply a possible example of something that fits that description.

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The major focus must remain the embedded market. We do desktop because we like it and we need a platform, but in the end, the desktop will never finance the project. The embedded market will.

YOUR focus may be the embedded market, but your Desktop customers don't care what your focus is, so long as the hardware available to them is reasonably priced, available, etc...

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In the embedded market, x86 is non-existent.

So is OS4, but you're creating your market, right?

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But even if it wheren't for the embedded market, I would still firmly belive in PowerPC and the CELL as the future of AmigaOS.

That's great, but if the hardware is hitting the ceiling at 2000 users, belief alone won't expand that market further. the bottleneck has to be dealt with sometime.

Quote:

It is my opinion (and I don't really care if Steve Jobs says otherwise) that CELL will be the next big thing in multimedia and desktop computing.

I hope it is, if it coincides with a reasonably priced, reasonably available, etc etc motherboard, but if it doesn't coincide with this, then nothing has been solved and we're still left with a market cap.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@Rogue

Quote:

Yawn. Not the "restrict to one board" story again. FYI, try to buy the same PC board you have now in half a year, and you will find this to be rather difficult.

Can you give me a random example of a popular x86 motherboard that's dissappeared completely from normal distrobution channels after 2 years? I can still get brand new warrantied Intel 440BX motherboards. As it is now, it's the AmigaOne that's quite difficult to get.

Quote:

I also don't see how you could explain to the average user why he needs to buy an extra board. Someone will say "but I want an(snip)

Arn't you already doing that? Specifying exactly what boards OS4 runs on? You're jerking the goalposts around for both sides of the comparison.

Quote:

Quote: If Eyetech and Hyperion want to expand the amiga brand, they will have no choice but to do something like this. No choice? Just watch us.

Going back to the premordial soup of this thread's evolution, it started because someone can't get a board to expand the market, for love or money. I'll keep watching, but you keep saying "nope" to alternatives to the situation being complained about. Maybe you have secret plans for a solution, if that's the case, right on!

Quote:

Quote: The average Joe on the street (or Mr Joe Industrialist) is going to take a look at a $800 uA1, compare it to any comparable boards on the market, and wonder why we're using hard to find hardware to run the OS on. Joe Industrialist? Industry customers have other priorities. For one thing, a mass market deal will not cost $800. Secondly, there are other factors than initial cost - PowerPC's low power consumption and heat make it ideal for larger server farms.

Server farms? AmigaOS4? Who'da thunk all these non Desktop areas would be a more attractive market for AOS4 than the Amiga Desktop.
Now that would be definate bragging rights for Amiga users.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @T_Bone Quote: Like I said, the reason people think (including developers, who make the software) that x86 means more software is because there's no cap on the installed base. Dreaming again? Why would a windows user want to use any AmigaOS?

Why don't you ask them? Most of your customers do, in fact, use Windows.

(but why are you equating x86 to Windows?)

Quote:

Quote: Hell, if we picked *ONE X86 MOTHERBOARD*, and it only ran on that ONE BOARD, we'd be in better shape than we are now with regards to hardware price, availability, warranty, service, performance, and peace of mind that the chipset vendors website will still be there next month. See my other reply. Try to guarantee that the thing will actually not be discontinued four months later.

If that's an insurmountable problem in your opinion, ie: choosing a motherboard that will be available for at least 4 months, it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies about bringing a custom Cell platform to market. Choosing an x86 motherboard that's well supported is something routinely tasked to teenagers, seriously.

I sincerley think you're exadurating the hypothetical problems, but the problems you're currently facing are real. I may have a big mouth , but I'm not the only person to see that the hardware availability is a real problem.

Last edited by T_Bone on 27-Jun-2005 at 03:44 AM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 27-Jun-2005 at 03:41 AM.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

Currently, there is no licensing agreement between Hyperion and Amiga Inc. for development of the OS beyond "4.0". No 4.2, no 4.5, no 4.9. They only have the right to develop and distribute "4.0", and it is only for PPC.

Quote:

From Amiga Inc. website: AmigaOne Partners have the right to distribute AmigaOS 4.0 into the AmigaOne desktop computer market and into Cyberstorm PPC enabled devices. Distribution into any other market or device requires a licensing and distribution agreement with Amiga, Inc.

As you can see, they would require a license and distribution agreement with Amiga Inc. for anything further.

But then...

Quote:

From Amiga Inc. website again: ...the development of future versions of the Amiga Operating System is not available for third party development or distribution.

This means Amiga Inc. itself is handling the future versions, beyond "4.0". I'm sure they're already working on that right now.

@EyeAm

Quote: "This means Amiga Inc. itself is handling the future versions, beyond "4.0".
I'm sure they're already working on that right now."

If this is true and if you can arrange a meeting regarding that subject, please let me know.
Public or PM, either way.

Edit (added a double quote mark)

Best Wishes,
#6

Last edited by number6 on 27-Jun-2005 at 04:24 AM.

_________________
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*Secrecy has served us so well*

@EyeAm

This means Amiga Inc. itself is handling the future versions, beyond "4.0". I'm sure they're already working on that right now.

If I'm not mistaken, Amiga Inc. will be concentrating on 5.0 and beyond, leaving 4.0 and its successors (4.1 thru 4.9) to the AmigaOne partners. Of course Hyperion and crew will have to elaborate on this. I'm only speaking from what I have heard (or thought I heard).

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@Helgis

Why are you so concerned about what future CPU we should use, when right now what Amiga really needs is some good software? i.e. a browser and office suite?

We've got some good little gems like Hollywood fortunately. I think that could be a killer app to sell with a laptop.

Fortunately most of my every day software needs are met, with the exception of a modern browser. Also, we could do with some specialist software like dvd creation, video editing, etc.

Anything amiga-related seems to be done for the love of the platform rather than for financial gain it seems. I hope Hyperion do well in the embedded market.