@DoodooHead

Quote:

Oh BBRV, yes, if you can just get all of these people to stop hanging out at Amigaworld.net and get them all to go over to power.org...

I joined power.org some time ago. I don't go there very often, as I haven't yet found a great deal of interesting stuff. There's potential for interesting stuff, a lot of potential, butI haven't got excited there yet.

I'm not exactly sure what bbrv meant about there being a good chance. A good chance "of what?" I don't remember asking what the chances of anything are, and my post previous to his reply was asking what all the hubbub about lawyers doing things now was in relation to there not being a lawsuit anymore. I gues I should go back and refresh my memory of anything else I said here that they might have been replying to.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@billt

I was just trying to figure out why he posted here at all. I guess it is for the same reason he always does... to stir things up.

_________________
Amiga user since 1985.

my cats breath smells like catfood

@jahc

Quote:

my cats breath smells like catfood

Would that be a Wookie Cat?

_________________
Amiga user since 1985.

@saimo

Quote:

If you had been straight and clear right from the start, there would not have been any need of illumination from other willingly people.

Yes, but that reduces the fun.

Quote:

- do you want AOS4?

I'm not bbrv of course, but this is my opinion (and I hope the bbrv reply is in those questions we submitted a while ago). My impression is that any OS/user base still active with PPC is an asset for the architecture overall. Genesi is, after all, a PowerPC hardware/firmware provider and, let's face it, the platform has seen brighter days. In this context, it makes sense to get even rather small subsets like PPC Amiga on board for possible collective benefit.

Part of the benefit would be more enthusiasm and perception of activity for the Power/PowerPC platform. Part might be actual increased sales for Genesi from this market, but I think that's secondary.

I suspect there is also something personal about bbrv's quest related to AmigaOS. Personally, I can't see how it would be worth the effort. Like Seehund said, I really hope this is something bbrv are doing in their spare time after the real business has been done.

When I see the reactions to bbrv's posts here, though, I have to wonder what the net gain would be for power.org anyway.

Quote:

- have you ever tried / are you trying to get the license (in a fully professional and legal way, I mean)?

IIRC, there was negotiating way back in the early days, but didn't Amiga, Inc. impose a condition that the machine could not be sold with OSs other than AmigaOS installed? Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, anyone.

Anyway, in 2006, the concept of a hardware maker paying the OS provider for the right to provide essential hardware so that the OS can be sold and used seems totally wrong to me. Of course the value of anything depends on the context, so if AmigaOS would drive Genesi ODW sales in a great way, it might be worth it to Genesi to pay a premium for this, knowing they would quickly recover that cost. But realistically, this is not the situation for AOS4.

Personally, I think it makes sense for the OS vendor to get income from the unit sales, but nothing additional. So the license would just be a kind of cooperation agreement, with no money changing hands.

-- gary_c

_________________
zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

If there is one tacktic i see here again and again it is
the one of breaking down other peoples work and
then ask them to join your master work.

That will not work, if you can not work together forgett
it all and go your own way and leave eachother alone.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@Dirk-B

Something to think about is that some of these hardware outfits are focussed narrowly on getting a prototype done -- which for sure is a hard challenge -- and some, or one anyway, has some experience already and realizes the need, and has the perspective, to take the broader view and look farther ahead. As Alan Redhouse said long ago, this market is not big enough to sustain hardware sales by itself. Any of these outfits trying to make new hardware will have to sell beyond the Amiga platform in order to have enough volume to be viable. The group will have to leverage everything it can to be visible in the larger market and win some credibility, which comes before being able to sell to those markets.

Of course people want to try to make and sell their hardware. They should have the chance. It's up to them and to the market to determine which will succeed and which won't.

-- gary_c

_________________
zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

@gary_c

Why are you guys making decisions for other people?

If all those Amigafans wanted to buy a peg or whatever,
they already would have done that.

Remember, one of the most importend things to choose
Eyetech over phase5/bplan was the user-support. Afther
that decision they filled that gap in with a MOS-version and
where putting all the user-support-pressure on the MOS-devs.
Nice trick that one.

Well, its up to the people themself to choose the path they
want to go and everybody is free to make there own decisions.
But you can not force them, that will not work.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@Dirk-B

Quote:

Why are you guys making decisions for other people?

How is that possible? Of course every person makes his/her own decisions, so we agree about that. All I'm doing is expressing my own opinion, and people can agree or disagree with it. I respect others' rights to voice their opinions; this includes the opinions of bbrv, and if they are trying to persuade people to their way of thinking, well, judge the merits of their arguments. I agree with what some have said that if these arguments are unclear, people should ask for and expect to get clarification.

I also believe in equal treatment and look forward to every hardware group providing the same disclosure and being subjected to the same level of scrutiny.

-- gary_c

_________________
zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

@bbrv

Quote:

@DoodooHead You are more aptly named than we could have ever hoped. Thanks for playing!

What little respect I had for you just went out the window with that comment. Thanks for playing!

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@sundown
Little cycles like this always make me shake my head.

A guy chooses as a discussion board name for himself "DoodooHead" ('doo doo' is baby talk for 'sh*t', in case it hasn't gone international yet). This in itself is kind of like wandering into a forest fire wearing a suit of strung-together firecrackers. Of course bbrv should have stifled their impulses and ignored the obvious retort DoodooHead was handing them on a silver platter along with his negative comments. This would have been the 'civilized' thing to do I suppose. But on the other hand I don't know how logical it is to get indignant because a guy was told how well he deserved the handle he chose for himself.

My guess is this is just another opportunity for people who are inclined to be anti to go into church lady mode.

-- gary_c

_________________
zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

@gary_c

Quote:

didn't Amiga, Inc. impose a condition that the machine could not be sold with OSs other than AmigaOS installed?

IIRC the condition was that all machines come with OS4 installed, in order to prevent someone from buying a machine without OS4 and running a pirate copy of OS4 on it. That made sense for the A1, which was going to come in a Linux version and an OS4 (dongled) version. The idea was that no-one could buy the OS4 version of the board without OS4. Obviously that can't apply to a generic board like the Pegasos.

@Dirk-B

Quote:

Remember, one of the most importend things to choose Eyetech over phase5/bplan was the user-support. Afther that decision they filled that gap in with a MOS-version and where putting all the user-support-pressure on the MOS-devs. Nice trick that one.

What the f.....ish are you talking about ???

I think there are a few things that are crystal clear:
- Eyetech's user-support sucked, actually it sucked so bad one would need a new word for it
- Eyetech never had any user-support regarding OS4 (how should they when it's not their product)
- bPlan has an excelent user-support when it comes to their HW
- Whatever user-support has to be delivered for whatever OS has to be done by those responsible for that OS

I really don't understand why some people have to repeat yesteryears brainfarts on this again and again.



!!! warning what follows could turn into a rather long rant !!!


I find it rather odd that after years and years of lies, scams and BS there are still people you would just believe 5-7 new mobos appearing within a month or so.

Specially when two of the producers have allready more than prooven that their announcments should only be judged by their entertainment-value, and a 3rd one managing to bring it credibility to liquid-nitrogen-levels (far beyond zero that is) before they are even known. Wether that stupidity by a AW-net-pseudo-celebrity was authorized is another question, but I know if I had been involved in such a project I would have kicked the lunatic's virtual butt....


So much for rant phase I

Up to the next ......

All these projects are still at a prototype stage (some probraly not even that), and it doesn't take much to guess how long it will take since they can actually bought of shelf at Vesalia&Co. One just has to look at those few similar complicated projects that actually made it in the past years to get a clue.
And then there is "the licence", the 1st and simplest question to be asked and answered, but sofar noone has actually answered it and I doubt thats without reason. Sure some will claim that they allready have a (verbal) agreement with AInc and are only waiting for the paperworks. Something that should sound way too familiar to the MorphOS-team, H&P, AHT and whoknowselse.


O.k. lets call it quits on phase II

And start phase III

Lets assume all these projects make it, what effect will they have ? Well lets look at other attempts to do lifesupport for dying OSes by HW.

- CPC6128Plus
- Hades (Atari-TOS)
- Milan (Atari-TOS)
- IYONIX (RISC-OS)
- Draco
- C-One
- Super-CPU (C64)
- BPPC/CSPPC
- Walker
- AOne
- BoXeR
(list could be continued)

O.k. all these have either failed to deliever or didn't reach their goal (stableising the communities). Some managed to strech the dying-process, other were only aimed to existing users/fans. All have a few things in common, they have/had a horrible bang/buck rate compared to mainstream-HW produced in the same timeframe. Most of them had either quality or support problems, some even both. All were hard to get and never appeared on the radar of the broader public or corporates.

Now that other list ..... mmm actually not much of a list since there aren't really many success stories of revitalizing an OS by HW.....

- Apple on x86

O.k. lots of cash, lot's of current users and a HW which is good in all major aspects. This is how it should be done.

But didn't I miss something ? You know the HW with the red bull ähhh flying horse that is ....

Where would the Pegasos fit in ? I would say somewhere inbetween, but sliding more and more towards the 1st list I'm afraid.

It does have the quality, it does have support, it's price is within reasonable ranges and it's even a known word in parts of the industry (some of them even activly advertizing it). The only problem is the performance which is at a stand-still for years, which means it's sliding backwards in the eyes of the broader public.

Conclusion:

If all you want is soemthing similar than what the ones on the 1st list delivered you might be happy with a a PowerVixxen or Samantha, but if your really serious about bringing Amiga back from the dead you'll need something that can beat bPlan's Pegasos in ALL aspects.

Last edited by Kronos on 06-Sep-2006 at 09:20 AM.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@gary_c

Quote:

Quote: - do you want AOS4? I'm not bbrv of course, but this is my opinion (and I hope the bbrv reply is in those questions we submitted a while ago). My impression is that any OS/user base still active with PPC is an asset for the architecture overall. Genesi is, after all, a PowerPC hardware/firmware provider and, let's face it, the platform has seen brighter days. In this context, it makes sense to get even rather small subsets like PPC Amiga on board for possible collective benefit. Part of the benefit would be more enthusiasm and perception of activity for the Power/PowerPC platform. Part might be actual increased sales for Genesi from this market, but I think that's secondary.

Here you list some reasons why AOS4 would be good for the PPC-oriented efforts of Mr. Buck (and why he would want AOS4)...

Quote:

I suspect there is also something personal about bbrv's quest related to AmigaOS. Personally, I can't see how it would be worth the effort. Like Seehund said, I really hope this is something bbrv are doing in their spare time after the real business has been done.

... and here you say that AOS4 is not worth the effort.
It speaks by itself.

And, BTW, as for the spare time thingie: I had already answered to SeeHund, but you repeated what he had said without adding anything and without paying attention to my answer - again, it speaks by itself.

Quote:

When I see the reactions to bbrv's posts here, though, I have to wonder what the net gain would be for power.org anyway.

If there had been no gain, BB would be, to say the least, a very bad business man, as he'd be investing a lot on something useless.
Otherwise, there must be a potential gain. And there is. Besides what you have mentioned yourself, there is The Name (yes, The Name: it's not as worthless as the naysayers like to say... the world outside this tiny community knows nothing about the tragic/ridiculous/etc. situations the Amiga has been through, so the value has remained intact) and AOS4 itself (it makes a commercial and technical difference when on your platform(s) you have an official - and promising - version of a famous OS running, especially when the other OSes are already spread, work better, offer/enjoy more support and are more convenient on other platforms (Linux & whatever else) or are (semi-)unknown, in a very delicate situation and find in AOS4 itself a terrible rival (MorphOS).

Quote:

Quote: - have you ever tried / are you trying to get the license (in a fully professional and legal way, I mean)? IIRC, there was negotiating way back in the early days, but didn't Amiga, Inc. impose a condition that the machine could not be sold with OSs other than AmigaOS installed? Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, anyone.

Could be. I can't remember and personally I don't care about the details. Facts say that BB did not get a license.
(continued below)

Quote:

Anyway, in 2006, the concept of a hardware maker paying the OS provider for the right to provide essential hardware so that the OS can be sold and used seems totally wrong to me. Of course the value of anything depends on the context, so if AmigaOS would drive Genesi ODW sales in a great way, it might be worth it to Genesi to pay a premium for this, knowing they would quickly recover that cost. But realistically, this is not the situation for AOS4. Personally, I think it makes sense for the OS vendor to get income from the unit sales, but nothing additional. So the license would just be a kind of cooperation agreement, with no money changing hands. -- gary_c

First Pixie, then SeeHund, now you: you all tried to steer the discussion in this direction.
Bad or good, pretty or ugly, like it or not, there *are* rules. Rules that AInc, being the owner of AOS, has any right to make as it pleases. If somebody does not like them, then the only way to try to change them is getting privately and professionally in touch with AInc and proposing them a valid alternative. For sure, exploiting the weaknesses of the community, of the market, of Hyperion, you name it, the way BB has been doing over and over again is not the right way and is unacceptable. This, along with personal insults, sly lawsuits, open attacks and whatever has been publically witnessed in these last years (and even before... I've heard negative comments about BB since the VisCorp times), rules BB out as a reliable business partner. No wonder if AInc refused to partner with him. They can't be blamed even if BB had commercially valid proposals. BB is only reaping what he sowed - and he keeps on sowing bad seeds.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

"the name"

It is an often repeated urban myth that there was ever a big value attached to the name.

Ask 1000 (random)people wether the know what Amiga is and you might come up with more "wrong" (a record label, a telecom-company) answers than right ones. Most of them will just shrug. Those who knwo the right answer are people who actuall used a an Amiga back in the days.

These people would either know what happened after 94, or would atleast inform themselves before spending $$$$.

Now compare that to names like "Commodore" or "Apple", brands where even those who never had such a computer (or any other) will still know what you are talking about.

The C64 (and before that the VIC and other C=s) were the dominant (home)computer of their time. The Amiga never managed to get even close to the C64's number, despite the overall market-size literally exploding in that time-frame.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Kronos

Quote:

"the name" It is an often repeated urban myth that there was ever a big value attached to the name. Ask 1000 (random)people wether the know what Amiga is and you might come up with more "wrong" (a record label, a telecom-company) answers than right ones. Most of them will just shrug. Those who knwo the right answer are people who actuall used a an Amiga back in the days.

Actually, my personal experience is quite different: the minority did not know about it, and the majority did remember about a very nice machine (whether they had owned one or not). Nobody has ever mistaken the Amiga for anything other than a computer. That may be because I live in Europe, but then this means that there is at least this relevant area of the world where "The Name" has a certain importance.
Keep in mind that although the number of persons that remember the Amiga (with fondness) may not be large, it is still more than zero, and thus to be taken into account. Overlooking such an aspect would be definetely unwise from a marketing POV.

Quote:

These people would either know what happened after 94,

Millions of people used Amigas and, no, the awareness of what has happened since the demise of Commodore is not so widespread.
But, after all, that is irrelevant: do you think that those who know the story automatically think that the Amiga sucks? That is dead and gone and not worth thinking about even for just a second? That such a nice machine cannot be back? I'm one who knows and, despite I fully see the technological and economical limitations that ensued the bad times Amiga went through, I do not think that the Amiga sucks. Indeed, the knowledge of the story teaches me that Amiga is in bad waters for many reasons but technogical validity. I know I'm not alone
Sure, the memory of some people may have been polluted by the "dark ages", but I really can't see why the knowledge of the story would repel the majority of the potential customers.

Quote:

or would atleast inform themselves before spending $$$$.

Of course. The majority of people makes sure it is not about to throw money away before a purchase. But "The Name" is only meant to attract attention. Nothing else. It a commercial strenght. If then The Name is attached to a good/interesting product, then you have a winning combination.

Quote:

Now compare that to names like "Commodore" or "Apple", brands where even those who never had such a computer (or any other) will still know what you are talking about. The C64 (and before that the VIC and other C=s) were the dominant (home)computer of their time. The Amiga never managed to get even close to the C64's number, despite the overall market-size literally exploding in that time-frame.

So what? What are you trying to say? Maybe that The Name has no importance because there are other more important names? If so, that's a flawed reasoning: The Name may be less known and important than others, but still it retains a certain degree of importance.

saimo

P.S. I know this sounds terribly OT and stale, but I personally find that despising The Name only to get it for less is unacceptable (this is not meant to be specifically directed at Kronos).

Last edited by saimo on 06-Sep-2006 at 11:16 AM.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@gary_c

Quote:

IIRC, there was negotiating way back in the early days, but didn't Amiga, Inc. impose a condition that the machine could not be sold with OSs other than AmigaOS installed? Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, anyone.

Only sort of, I think thats one of the most misunderstood parts of the licencing scheme, what they said was that any machine capable of running OS4 had to be sold with a licence for it, what they meant was (they were originally talking of a "security chip" but settled I believe on a "key" or some such in the firmware) that you could sell (ie an efika if it had an OS4 licence) without Os4 for Linux/Morphos etc but there had to be something in the design (ie in the firmware) that you could have a check in OS4 that would stop it running on non-legit machines (ie you buy OS4 you get an update to your firmware that enables it or register it with your ethernet hardware address etc etc).

Regards

Mark

_________________
IceStar Media Ltd.

@Mark

Fleecy discussed licensing requirements in this (old) post.
Some months ago, I raised the question as to what extent these prerequirements can still be regarded as valid.

In the end, we simply don't know. Maybe the 25 Q&A shed some light into this topic.

_________________
This signature is in the middle of a much needed facelift!

@saimo

Quote:

First Pixie, then SeeHund, now you: you all tried to steer the discussion in this direction. Bad or good, pretty or ugly, like it or not, there *are* rules. Rules that AInc, being the owner of AOS, has any right to make as it pleases. If somebody does not like them, then the only way to try to change them is getting privately and professionally in touch with AInc and proposing them a valid alternative. saimo

The alternative was offeed a gazillion times: Sell OS4 with an usb dongle. Genesi never accepted to change the firmware for some special OS4 maschines, but this is not necessary. The license requires a dongle code, how that one is realized is stated nowhere.
The idea to sell OS4 for the Pegasos using an usb dongle was offered x-times already since 2002 or even earlier.
Even Hyerion confirmed that the firmware ws not the problem. And magnetic was willing to contribute serious funds to accquire a license. But AI never ever accepted anything which had to do with Genesi.

There was a lot of good will, but AI f*cked it up (several times, same holds true for the AHT debacle).

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@Zylesea

Quote:

The alternative was offeed a gazillion times: Sell OS4 with an usb dongle. Genesi never accepted to change the firmware for some special OS4 maschines, but this is not necessary. The license requires a dongle code, how that one is realized is stated nowhere. The idea to sell OS4 for the Pegasos using an usb dongle was offered x-times already since 2002 or even earlier. Even Hyerion confirmed that the firmware ws not the problem. And magnetic was willing to contribute serious funds to accquire a license. But AI never ever accepted anything which had to do with Genesi. There was a lot of good will, but AI f*cked it up (several times, same holds true for the AHT debacle).

You have already my answer in my previous posts(*), but anyway...
First off, let's keep in mind that quite a number of offers have been made through unconventional channels in a form that made them look rather a challenge than else: that's surely not a good start for a negotiation.
Whether there have been private and professional proposals, I don't know. If there have been and they have been turned down, well, AInc had all the rights to do so. Note that I'm not saying that they did the right thing: only that they had full rights. Now, the refusal of an offer does not in any way justify any other kind of attempt to get what has been denied, especially if it gets down to playing dirty games.

edit: (*) I just noticed that in the quote you reported you took care of cutting away a relevant part of the discussion. More precisely:
Quote:

For sure, exploiting the weaknesses of the community, of the market, of Hyperion, you name it, the way BB has been doing over and over again is not the right way and is unacceptable. This, along with personal insults, sly lawsuits, open attacks and whatever has been publically witnessed in these last years (and even before... I've heard negative comments about BB since the VisCorp times), rules BB out as a reliable business partner. No wonder if AInc refused to partner with him. They can't be blamed even if BB had commercially valid proposals. BB is only reaping what he sowed - and he keeps on sowing bad seeds.

was contained between the last line you quoted and my nickname.
It makes it look like you don't want to have a honest and open discussion.

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 06-Sep-2006 at 02:35 PM.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC