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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
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Poll : Do you agree or disagree?
Yes
No
Not sure
 
PosterThread
SvenHarvey 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:32:17
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2003
Posts: 541
From: Birmingham, UK

@Carl-S

I agree totally...

In fact I have written as much previously... - just glad someone else has the same beliefs. I think a few people may know of my tirades in this direction lol... Nice to see you around Carl, I think I speak for a lot of people when i say I am a fan

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Derfs 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:34:38
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 755
From: me To: you

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:

Hagbard_Celine wrote:
@Carl-S

Finally somebody who shares my point of view of an Amiga. It is not about the CPU anymore, or any of those discussion, its only about SW and *any* kind of Hardware.

Thats is why I will never understand Hyperion for not porting it to a different CPU.

Port it, thats it, and *BAM*, you have got hundreds of posibilities.



why do you put the blame on hyperion?

it has been said many times that hyperion have a contract for ppc os4. nothing else.

that is where they are now. that is the facts.

where we go from here, and who wants to do it, are the main topics now. i dont think hyperion will ever want to touch x86 for example, but that doesnt stop another company making a plan and implementing it.

*if* a new company came in, and did a x86 port of os4, how easy / hard will it be to get all the software working on ppc os4 to work on x86 os4? remember there are no amazing set of tools to do this, it would really be on the back of this community.

and it all takes time and money.

thoughts?

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Interesting 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:46:29
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@Carl-S

agree 100%

was going to say user control but Enables is a much better term.

and I would also sum it up by the word "Fun"

The Amiga is a Fun computer that Enables the user.

Last edited by Interesting on 23-Oct-2006 at 11:13 PM.

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DBAlex 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:55:20
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2006
Posts: 724
From: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

@Carl-S

I agree actually...

I allways thought that amiga should either be ppc or 68k... But what does it really matter, because all that does is make the amiga less and less behind current technology... Which isn't good for us and for people who are interested in the amiga for serious work...

For example, ebuyer.com was selling a 64bit Sempron 2800+ processor for 30... No powerpc of 68k chip is ever going to beat that in terms of power/price ratio... is it? couple that with a motherboard and OS4 all for under 100 or 150 and I think your on to a winner!

The only problem then is convincing people WHY they should use AmigaOS over Linux (free) or Windows (apps) we all know why but the general public don't....! We need the applications too, lets face it, currently there just ISNT enough native OS4 apps! I know this is down to lack of hardware etc but its something that will put people off...

I wish we had someone like you running Amiga Inc! Maybe things would be very different now...

Last edited by DBAlex on 23-Oct-2006 at 11:06 PM.
Last edited by DBAlex on 23-Oct-2006 at 10:58 PM.
Last edited by DBAlex on 23-Oct-2006 at 10:57 PM.

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Carl-S 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:04:16
#25 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Posts: 38
From: REBOLville

@falemagn

I understand your points. Well stated. Yes, those systems have come a long way!

I use Linux, BSD, OS X, and Windows daily, but none truly satisfies me. Only OS X gets me close to the Amiga feeling and concept. Linux and BSD both have their merits (e.g. I use them for servers, firewalls, etc.), but I don't find them that friendly when used as a desktop system.

One other positive distinction about the Amiga is that of being a lightweight system. That was once true of Linux, but no longer. It's become quite heavy.

If I had to classify the benefit of "lightweight" into my Amiga definition, I would say that being lightweight makes you agile, and if you are agile, then you are able to be more creative.

We know this creative property about the Amiga quite well.

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ssolie 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:07:25
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2692
From: Alberta, Canada

@Carl-S
Hi there Carl, Steven Solie here. I voted yes by the way.

I do hope we can get there some day. I just don't think we can do this with the 4.0 release (due to lack of cashflow) but I do think we can with a subsequent release once a business has been established. The Amiga brand is still very valuable and it may be able to attract the right kind of attention (i.e. investors) again to make a real go of it.

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Rob 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:22:01
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5587
From: S.Wales

@DBAlex

Power to price ratio doesn't even need to come into it. Just a low price.

I was speaking with a colleague the other day who said they didn't like computers. When I asked why she responded by saying that they are too expensive. I replied that you needn't and pay a huge sum and could get a system for a couple of hundred pounds. Her response to that was that a few hundred pounds was too much just for a computer.

There are many users like her who would mainly use a computer for web browsing, e-mail, the occasional letter and fun games little game that don't require a huge ammount of processing power.

If they could get a computer that did all this for 100 pounds then there woudld be a market.

This could be a long way off from now so in the mean time we have to make do with what we have and do what we can to fill the gaps that prevent the average person from owning an Amiga.

Fisrt we need to have hardware available to the enthusiasts and developers with vision. Secondly we need to find markets that will help bring costs down and thirdly to prepare applications that will sell the computer to the public when that mainstream price point is met.

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Rob 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:28:31
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5587
From: S.Wales

@Carl-S

Quote:
If I had to classify the benefit of "lightweight" into my Amiga definition, I would say that being lightweight makes you agile, and if you are agile, then you are able to be more creative.

We know this creative property about the Amiga quite well.


This is why I believe that we should focus on writing efficient apps targeted specifically at the Amiga and avoid open source projects where possible. There is no point in having a lightweight OS and then having inefficient bloated apps clogging the system up. That takes away from the creativity and fun of the overall experience.

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Carl-S 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:35:39
#29 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Posts: 38
From: REBOLville

@Tesla

Quote:
For many the processor is irrelevant, but for others PPC (or MIPS etc.) is a better
choice than x86 and perhaps that is enough to warrant a moments pause. For me
at least, x86 is the less enabling choice.

I'm an old CPU architecture person myself... and I understand your points and agree.

Yes, the x86 is a Frankenstein. It's horrible. But, here's the rub: Fast Cheap Motherboards (Tiger Direct Link). That is what economies of scale and serious competition make possible.

For me, I reached a point where I just imagine the x86 instruction set to be a form of microcode... which is always ugly and difficult to read, but no one really cares.

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Rit 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:43:20
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2005
Posts: 138
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Voted yes.

Agree with all of it except for the last bit. I don't disagree, i'm just not totally sure how i feel about Amiga OS being run on old grey boxes.

I think as long as you actually have "an Amiga" complete hardware and software system in production then it wouldn't be too bad.. but in a way in contradicts your first point about people being able to buy "the complete system" and not just "the kit".

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Zylesea 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:56:11
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2033
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@Carl-S

I agree partly, but I think there are some obstacles.
1st Amiga should be compatible to old apps, you need a processor with the right endianess for that. generic x86 do not offer this. Of course you could flip the endianess on the fly during run time, but this is nice waste of cpu cycles and IMO in contra position to the amiga philosophy.
Leaves only non-x86 processors (where only the 970?? (and cell) have competing power *and* price) or the AROS way (be API compatible, but *not* binary compatible).

2nd I seriously doubt that you will jump on todays desktops (not even to talk about servers here) with a "new" OS. Ppl are just used to Windows. Even OSX does gain only slowly and few increasing market shares, while being very superior compared to Win. Or linux, well not my taste, but it's free it's solid but Joe average is ignoring it.
How shold an AmigaOS do better? The AmigaOS *is* a gorgeous OS, but I doubt it fullfills the needs of the today's world.
It needs MP, multiuser support, a security managemnt system (the AOS is far, far, far to easy to damage if your intentions are bad, luckily today it is very safe, but only because of security by obscurity) and SMP (multi core cpus are *the* topic of the next years). Put that to AmigaOS and some killer apps for a cool price and you're in the game, but not b4.
As much as i loved to see AOS playing a role in general computing I guess it will stay in the retro/nerd corner (but (hopefully) I am just wrong).

Leaves only one good opportunity - the embedded world. Things which are used in a non safe environment and must be easy to operate, use less power (electric juice and cpu cycles) and less memory (RAM & Storage). In this area there are many options (maybe we'll see some simple but nice 'amigaish' (well, w/o the word) products soon )

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cecilia 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:56:38
#32 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Oct-2004
Posts: 860
From: Amiga Land

@Carl-S

Quote:
The Amiga is a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership.
Since this is THE reason I bought my first computer in 1989 (amiga 2000), I Have to agree!

It was the first time I saw a computer that would let me be an artist. I got a 2000 that had two floppy drives, no HD, no extra memory, no acceleration and I STILL learned how to make animations and graphics starting with this system and lots of time/hard work.

As this was my introduction to computers in a real world situation I also got a lesson on THAT subject.

I was able to successfully turn this experience and knowledge into a career in special effects. Even when I used other systems, my "amiga working habits" were well ingrained and made my work more efficient.

"Only Amiga makes it possible" is not just a slogan for me.

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Carl-S 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:01:42
#33 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Posts: 38
From: REBOLville

@Rit

Quote:

Rit wrote:
but in a way in contradicts your first point about people being able to buy "the complete system" and not just "the kit".


Yes, but I think you can have it both ways. Vendors providing fully running Amigas, and the kit for those who want it.

Here is a good example:

Our local high school has hundreds of old Win2K PCs for students to use. But, the computers are difficult to maintain -- they get too much spyware/adware/viruses. So, the school is going to replace them and order several hundred new XP-ready computers for $millions.

Those computers are used for either the web, word processing, or spreadsheets. That's about all. They don't allow games. With the right OS, those systems could be made to work well for students. But, Linux is not the right OS nor is BSD.

So, there is a perfect opportunity for an alternative OS, but instead... all those computers will be replaced. What a huge waste.

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minator 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:18:25
#34 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@Carl-S

That sounds like a definition of an "ideal computer" rather than specifically an Amiga.
It's what an Amiga *should* be.

I think there are several ways to build such a machine, I think there are a variety of different CPUs and OSs that could be used, even Linux providing a light weight GUI was used, I don't think many round here would agree with that option round here though...

I would add 3 other points though, It should also be:

- Reliable
- Secure
- Modern (as it has up to date facilities / apps. e.g. web browser).

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wegster 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:21:51
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Carl-S
Hi Carl, nice to have you here!

"Computer System" - yes, I agree. To ever reach a point of large numbers of sales, selling a motherboard, 'kit,' or parts, will never make it. However, I don't know how the current mess/players would contribute towards making this a reality.

"Creative People" - Again, I agree..however, there is a dearth of 'creative software' that would appeal to many of your target market, currently. OS4 can run Lightwave with a patch, IIRC, Bars N Pipes, and a few other classic oldies, yet things have progressed in the world of software. Even 'creative people' have the need of browsing a CSS web site at times, something not yet possible with OS4 (unless you use RDesktop as an example..)

"Low Cost" - Agree. The only way to get any real number of users will be either to provide something so great they _have_ to have it, at any cost, or bring the cost down to such a point where it can be written off as 'entertainment expense,' and not thought about much. A $1000 USD system is not 'low cost' for most people. Sold as an app for PS3 for $100, it would be. Sold as a combo for $200-$300, effectively less than the cost of an iPod or cell phone, and you're in the ballpark...yet, HOW to attain that low cost in the current situation would seem to be impossible at this time.


Quote:
Our local high school has hundreds of old Win2K PCs for students to use. But, the computers are difficult to maintain -- they get too much spyware/adware/viruses. So, the school is going to replace them and order several hundred new XP-ready computers for $millions.

Those computers are used for either the web, word processing, or spreadsheets. That's about all. They don't allow games. With the right OS, those systems could be made to work well for students. But, Linux is not the right OS nor is BSD.


Regarding the above, a custom Linux system certainly _could_ make the above hardware quite useful. Run each session via LDAP based logins, limit the apps being able to run to a reasonable subset, and spend some time on choosing an easy to use desktop...some LiveCDs for Linux are pretty impressive in their desktop setups, regardless of whatever window manager they choose underlying it.

The idea of handing each student a USB flash drive, with OS, apps, and personal data on it, is appealing, and could re-use the above hardware, if/were OS4 ever to be run on x86. Bear in mind, Linux distros like Damned Small Linux ( http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ ) can do this currently, so the question becomes, what can OS4 do _better_, or at least competitively, here? (Or, OS5, ... etc).

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Rit 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:48:14
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2005
Posts: 138
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Yes, i was thinking about something like that as i was writing my reply. For something like that, I would probably be more for it.

I suppose it's all down to giving the people a proper experience of the OS and the experience of using "an Amiga", as in, when they look to the side of the monitor, or wherever the box happens to be, they'll see the Amiga and make the association between the nice OS and the style of the box, or the word Amiga if it happens to be printed upon it.

Just see'ing a generic grey box, doesn't give you that connection, that emotion for the thing. I suppose thats where my main concerns are.

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Carl-S 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:48:18
#37 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Posts: 38
From: REBOLville

@wegster

Yes, perhaps a specially "mixed" small Linux could do it too. It would need to be really smooth.

But, the issue is, the solution has to be a "platform" -- something concrete, defined, and supported, because the school is not of a mindset (nor ability) to do that themselves, nor do the want to deal with the chaos of the open source domain when it comes to things like support.

Yes, it would be possible for a company to build some kind of Linux that satisfied those requirements, but do you really think that Linux is good enough for most students? I use a dozen Linux distros here, and I've not found that really special one yet.

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tomazkid 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:48:27
#38 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11693
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@wegster

Quote:
he idea of handing each student a USB flash drive, with OS, apps, and personal data on it, is appealing, and could re-use the above hardware, if/were OS4 ever to be run on x86.


You mean similar to these ?

Seems they have managed to build Mac-On-Stick since I last checked

I myself am using Firefox, VLC, and Gimp from USB flash drive, really nifty

Last edited by tomazkid on 24-Oct-2006 at 12:48 AM.

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itix 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:49:08
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@Carl-S

I just disagree. Nice dreams but they dont come to the reality anymore.

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Rob 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2006 0:55:30
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5587
From: S.Wales

@Carl-S

Quote:
Here is a good example:

Our local high school has hundreds of old Win2K PCs for students to use. But, the computers are difficult to maintain -- they get too much spyware/adware/viruses. So, the school is going to replace them and order several hundred new XP-ready computers for $millions.


It seems senseless to waste so much money replacing system that have many more years of use left in them. The problem is that there is currently no alternative, apart from maybe tighter control of the networks and user rights.

How easy would it be to add multi-user support, proper network support and sytem administration to Amiga OS. Hyperion have said that this would likely slow down the system and take away a lot advantages it offers as a single user system. As the original author of Exec (I know its been some time), are you inclined to agree on this point.

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