@hatschi

We are not talking about what Amiga was, or about what Amiga "means" to me or anyone else. I am talking about what an Amiga IS.
WHy can't you just simply accept that Morphos, or AROS etc is NOT Amiga, it is Morphos or AROS or whatever and just move on. I really do not understand why people have to seem to justify and cling to this "successor" stuff which is simply not true. Is not Morphos and AROS and whatever else you like to think of as Amiga, but isn't, good enough to stand on its own merits and on its own terms?

Why do you feel the need that these other products need to hang on the dubious coat tails of what is Amiga?

As I have said previously, it would be great if there could be a combining of the two to strengthen the community and focus efforts, combine resources and so on, but realisticly thats just not going to happen in any forseeable future.

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@IonMane

Quote:

In my opinion the support of these other platforms on an Amiga portal is detrimental, causes divisiveness and duplication of effort and other conflict. The sooner we all go our seperate ways and support the platform of choice rather than trying to stuff these square pegs in round holes the better.

Please explain how going our separate ways will reduce duplication of effort, or prevent divisiveness? All it will do is sweep it under the carpet!

To the people who say we should pick one platform and support it - you are living in an idealistic dream. Each platform has gone too far for it's supporters to just give it up and file in under one banner again. That isn't even an option.

The Amiga community and the potential market for Amiga-like solutions is fragmented. That's a simple unalterable fact.

The only way to reduce duplication of effort and reduce divisiveness is for developers from the different "camps" or "sides" or whatever you call them to work together for the greater good. If MorphOS applications are ported to OS4 and OS4 applications are ported to AROS and AROS applications are ported to 68k and so on, then all Amiga variants will benefit from a greater selection of applications than if we all go and sulk in different coloured boxes out of spite.

People working together towards a common cause will always achieve more than individuals working on their own.

Each OS has the same basic ideals behind it - continuation of the indefinable, magic, entity that was and is "Amiga", so why is there so much contention between groups of people who all have the same aim?!

@IonMane

Quote:

I am talking about what an Amiga IS.

I was doing the same - and pointing out that there is more to it than just the trademark and name tag.

So what part of this post do you disagree with? That people have different definitions of what an Amiga IS?
Well, I am your first example that there indeed are different definitions/opinions on that.

Last edited by hatschi on 25-Nov-2006 at 07:07 PM.

IMHO a real Amiga is a so called classic Amiga not an Amiga One with OS4, a Pegasos with MOS or a computer running AROS. On a real Amiga it's possible to run Amiga software without emulation.

Think about this, what's the percentage of OS4 users compared to OS1.x-OS3.x users? Heck, count all three clones together and I think it's just a small percentage compared to people still using their so called classics for fun. This small fraction of the Amiga community is fighting among themselves about what a real Amiga is. I got news for you, real Amiga's aren't made anymore even if there's a company called Amiga Inc., for all I care they could be making pocketpc games.

About red & blue; I don't give a ####, let's just enjoy your choice be it OS4, MOS, Aros, or OS1.x-OS3.x and try to get along.

BTW I hate the name 'classic amiga', it's an Amiga period

@Seer
Quote:

Both have a new kernel. Sure, we can say that the OS4 kernel is more based on the original kernel, but is that so ? I mean, do we know enough about both kernels to determine which one is "more" "Amiga like" ? How much, if any, code of ExecNG is based on the original Exec ? Only the programmers know I suppose.

If you think about it for a bit you'll realize it's very unlikely ExecSG is based on the AOS kernel at all. Hyperion was granted permission by AInc. to use certain resources to create OS4. But the ExecSG kernel is not owned by Hyperion, it is licensed from a third party,
the Friedens who own it. Did AInc. grant permission to the Friedens to use the same resources Hyperion had access to? If so it seems like AInc. would have retained some degree of control over the kernel, but the Friedens have made it extremely clear that they, and they alone, have control over ExecSG - and don't forget you're supposed to feel good about that!

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Here for the whimpering end

@IonMane

Kaos wrote:
Quote:

IMHO a real Amiga is a so called classic Amiga not an Amiga One with OS4, a Pegasos with MOS or a computer running AROS. On a real Amiga it's possible to run Amiga software without emulation.

See what I was talking about, IonMane?

@IonMane

Then, the so-called "real Amiga" is dead. If it needs to run old Amiga software without emulation, the "real Amiga" is an A500 or an A1200. In terms of future, neither of those concern me. I have both (and more than one each), but they don't give anything that I can depend upon in the (even near) future.

I don't think being the real Amiga is that important, anyway.
OS4 is the official solution, like it or not. It doesn't make it better than the other options, but it's the official heir.
Other options have their merits, but they are not official. They are, however, valuable and liked because of their merits. Being unofficial doesn't dectract from this.

This "war" still feels like it's claiming "victims" on both sides... :(

@BrandonLee

how official is OS4 going to be when BillE really comes up with an OS5 in the near future ? ... what is going to be the "real" amiga then ?
I wonder what is going to happen when it comes to a point that all the guys wo are now crying " Hyperion + AmigaInc is the official solution " have to choose between Hyperion's OS4 and AmigaInc's OS5. Another community-split ?

Last edited by Aminicle on 25-Nov-2006 at 11:57 PM.

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@BrandonLee

I agree with your previous post. It is that attitude I am getting at. Pick your option and be proud of it.Why the need to tie it to Amiga when it isn't I just don't understand.

Your current post I also agree with.This is what I am getting at. AOS4 is the official Amiga, its the only one legally allowed to be called Amiga, ergo it is Amiga wheras the others are not. Its not about which one feels like it, or which one you think is better or whatever, simply what is and what isn't.

Quite frankly I think the PS3 could very well be closer to the ideal of the Amiga I hold than anything else besides the classic. A marriage of OS and new different and exciting hardware in a single complete package, but you wont see me calling it an Amiga for very obvious reasons, but it has every right to be called such as these others do.It is aslo besides the point.

The truth of things is that the reason these things are really similar at all is that they are providing a path for those still using the classic hardware a path to new hardware without having to replace all thier old software, and to provide these solutions with a much larger software base than they would otherwise have. When this move is completed (assuming it ever is) the various platforms will continue to diverge further and further as they do not share a common codebase, or API's (regardless how similar or dissimilar they are now) unles the various systems are in fact combined, which we can be reasonabley sure they wont be.

So in the end what will you have, assuming they all survive. A bunch of solutions but only one of them can be called Amiga.I does not matter if you like that or not.It does not matter if you feel one platform better fits your personal ideal better or not.Only one of them will be Amiga.

Now if you have chosen a platform that is not Amiga, fine, good, be proud of it. Dont call it Amiga when it isn't, call it what it is. Be proud to support your chosen platform.

If you choose Amiga then we should be concentrating on it, not these other platforms, which is the point I have been making.Porting happens all the time, and thats great, but we should be worrying about what we are doing, where we are going, not what others are doing and where they are going.

As it is now I believe we are to busy looking at others and not looking or worrying about ourselves enough.The sooner these solutions go thier seperate ways the better. I am not saying we need to isolate ourselves however. In fact, the longer we support these other platforms the more our current userbase is going to degrade when the final diversion from classic happens and the harder it is going to be to support the Amiga.

As far as the "war" is concerned, I dont really see that there is a war as such between the different operating systems. The only "war" I have seen is between one certain company that has provided a non amiga solution in the past, and is doing so again apparently, and pushing that solution and actively causing trouble in the Amiga community, directly competing with the Amiga, and actively trying to consume the entire community under false pretenses.The thing that astounds me is that not only do we allow this to happen, we actively help it along because we have allowed ourselves to believe that this thing is somehow an Amiga when it simply isn't.

It also realy rankles that the respect for other OS's is not returned when those of us which support OS4 and the Amiga dare to object to the obviously divisive and agressive tactics of said company, or that they try to call themselves Amiga.

In short:
Pick your platform
Support your platform proudly
The is only one Amiga path in reality, like it or not.
Those of us that choose Amiga should concentrate on Amiga.
Those that choose an alternative should concentrate on thier choice.
RESPECT your choice enough not to call your choice an Amiga if it isn't, even if it fulfils your ideas of what and Amiga is more than the "official" solution, and RESPECT the choice of others.

When that happens greater collaboration etc may happen, but will be doomed to receed as the various solutions continue to diverge.

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@IonMane

Quote:

AOS4 is the official Amiga, its the only one legally allowed to be called Amiga, ergo it is Amiga wheras the others are not. Its not about which one feels like it, or which one you think is better or whatever, simply what is and what isn't.

You've expressed this opinion many times. I think we all understand your viewpoint now. I dont think theres any need to keep rewording the same post over and over.

@IonMane

Quote:

As far as the "war" is concerned, I dont really see that there is a war as such between the different operating systems. The only "war" I have seen is between one certain company that has provided a non amiga solution in the past, and is doing so again apparently, and pushing that solution and actively causing trouble in the Amiga community, directly competing with the Amiga, and actively trying to consume the entire community under false pretenses.The thing that astounds me is that not only do we allow this to happen, we actively help it along because we have allowed ourselves to believe that this thing is somehow an Amiga when it simply isn't.

i agree this is what is happening and some here at aw.net are blinded and dont see it...

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I was a ZX Spectrum owner....

I'm rooting for AmigaOS and that's all. If AmigaOS never makes it, oh well. I simply concentrate on the real world of Windows and Linux. The rest of you bickering over wether or not we should join or merge this camp and/or that camp is just noise to me. No camp has more than a few members and just as much chance of building a meaningful user market.

If Amiga Inc and Genisi could make a workable parnership, only then would there be any hope of colaboration. However, it's been shown over and over those two don't like and don't trust each other. It's obviousness plays out here weekly between those choosing sides.

Genisi/BBRV and camp, go make your platform and OS. And best of luck to you. But trying to woo users here while hitting them over the head with insults shows you have along way to go in the field of marketing.

And don't come back here with that fanboy insult. I like AmigaOS, but so far Amiga Inc scores a zero out of 10 with me.

Plaz

@Plaz

Quote:

I'm rooting for AmigaOS and that's all. If AmigaOS never makes it, oh well. I simply concentrate on the real world of Windows and Linux.

yes thats what i think also but here its more windows and macos, morphos is not a choice at all becouse its not an amiga...

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I was a ZX Spectrum owner....

@d0c, IONMANE, Plaz ect..

Your attitudes are the reason I have visited here infrequently and rarely post. I have been a long time Amiga user and currently own 2 A4000’s, 2 A3000’s, 1 A4000t and several A2000’s. All have been heavily upgraded and I have several toaster/flyer combos. I gave away a large lot (dodge mini van minus back seats) full of Amiga hardware/software to Kent at AW.org. I was around during the fighting and lying by BOTH sides. I have spent a lot of $$ on Amiga. 3.9 is more Amiga like than OS4 is. According to Hyperion they were not able to use the source codes to make OS4. It does not run my software to a very great extant and certainly won’t run on any of my Amiga systems. MOS seems as Amiga like as OS4 to me (running apps). If Hyperion ends up with OS4 and has to rename it Hyper OS is it no longer to be discussed? I thought this was Amiga WORLD, you know all things Amiga and compatible? What about my PIV’s by Village Tronic , Cyberstorms, Warp Engines, ect.., none of those have the name , are they taboo also?

@others

Let the feud die. The platform has already been long passed by and unless some unity among all flavors is exhibited it will vanish. Getting up to date apps for OS4, MOS, or Aros will only benefit all. Here is a big GO to the developers out there no matter what flavor they are working on. I have spent big $$ before and will again when something worthwhile comes along!



Stew

@jahc

There is where the trouble in understanding each other lies. That quote is not an opinion, it is a fact. The problem lies in that people just cant or won't understand that, or simply ignore it. How you feel about that particular fact is another issue.

Once people accept that then we can move forward.

You could ask if I like things that way, and I suspect my answer would not be what you suspect. What I can say is I have a certain amount of faith in hyperion and what they have been trying to achieve, and from the source of where those efforts were derived that is unique to thier particular solution.

Amiga Inc. on the other hand, has alot to do, alot to prove, and alot to make up for regardless of any excuse or rationalization they have presented thus far if they ever hope to regain the support and trust they once garnered.

@Stew
Yes this is Amigaworld, supossedly focused on the Official Amiga solution.
However they may say this, they have opened the site up to other competing solutions that are not Amiga, and provide them with the exact same coverage now as the real amigas. This is not focused it is now a general site which is a symptom of the lack of focus that contributes to the splintering of the community in my opion.
There is, as far as I know, no Amiga only dedicated site since the change in direction of this site.
For people that support the official Amiga solution and dont want to be bothered with the pretenders, there is no longer a place to go.

As for the other things you spoke of, Morphos is not fully Amiga compatible, nor is AROS, or the pegasos, the eifika. Only the Amiga OS's up to and including 4.0, as well as AUE with the origonal kickroms and amiga forever are oficially supported as compatible.

Last edited by IonMane on 26-Nov-2006 at 04:55 AM.

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@IonMane

Quote:

There is where the trouble in understanding each other lies. That quote is not an opinion, it is a fact. The problem lies in that people just cant or won't understand that, or simply ignore it. How you feel about that particular fact is another issue. Once people accept that then we can move forward.

I dont think we can move forward when people are intolerant of other peoples views. I have my own ideas of what makes something an Amiga, but I dont try to force everyone to agree with me (like half the site has been trying to do lately).

IonMane, I'd try and let it go. We all need to.

@jahc

The difference there is you are talking about a philosophical idea and I am talking about reality.
Philosophcaly speaking I think OS4 or maybe even morphos on a cell based board would be closer to my concept of what an amiga is that anything that has been produced since the last classic amiga came of the production line.A combination of new innovative technology with a tight compact clean easy to use OS that does not tell you how to run things, and you dont have to mess with.

It occurs to me that the only ones that really have much power to really change things around here is the Morphos team. Genesi cant or wont seem to get a license, Hyperions hands are tied, Amiga Inc. seems to have thier own Agenda, but the Morphos team seems to have autonomy on the surface.

It may be interesting to see how things change if the Morphos guys took it upon themselves to port morphos to whatever hardware is eventually produced for AO4.

At that point we could have a common hardware base that would enhance the ability of both platforms to survive and grow the "community" on a hardware basis.It seems a bit biased blaming Amiga Inc. for not granting "x" a license when the morphos guys could do a port and circumvent the whole deal.

Perhaps then the morphos team and Hyperion, and perhaps even AROS could get together and build a common set of development tools allowing developers to create for all systems simultaneously.

Developers would not longer have to choose a platform, then port to others, which would result an pooling of development resources, a reduction of double effort, and a faster growing and larger software base for all.

Hmm it seems to me that this would neatly sidestep Genesi's playing around, Amiga Inc. licensing rubbish, and the general claptrap that goes on between the two. As far as I know there is no antipathy between the Morphos team and Hyperion......

It would not stop Morphos from supplying Genesi with thier os, and would allow them to sell direct to the consumer and set up an independant revenue stream from Genesi curbing thier reliance on them.

Heh, it may even force Amiga Inc. to relax thier draconian License scheme or even do away with it completely when they realize that they cannot keep Mophos off thier systems.

Still, probably never happen though

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@IonMane

Quote:

Yes this is Amigaworld, supossedly focused on the Official Amiga solution.

The official Amiga solution is "Amiga Anywhere" which is hardly mentioned on this site.

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Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

The weird part of all this MOS/OS4 talk, is that this poll seems to be neglected. It clearly states that MOS don't belong here.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/xoopspoll/pollresults.php?poll_id=4&start=20

But im in for collaboration, but can't see it happen because of different codebases.

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Darth_X

I was thinking the same... OS4 is still Beta AND has no official hardware. So I would be carefull with telling people what is official. Also Stew made a good point, If Hyperion and AmigaINC don't set their differences aside it might call HyperionOS. Is that official to you ?
Not that that is the point of this topic/poll, but if something like that happens you should be glad that there is a more tolerant community because your "official solution" isn't so official anymore and your just one of the "clones" that almost made it being the official solution.

Last edited by Aminicle on 26-Nov-2006 at 08:56 AM.

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- Proud Member Of The Belgian Amigaclub Since 2003 -

The Belgian Amiga Club on FACEBOOK !

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