@minator

Quote:

Cell has shown similar speed ups on other problems, if this work can be used in games Cell won't just get a 2X advantage over Xenon, it'll be much, much bigger.

You know your stuff very well as with most in depth articles you write. I wish we had more developers like you within the Amiga community. Most PS3 developers seem to have signed NDAs with Sony, which complicates PS3 discussion to a large degree.

@ AmiFGR

Quote:

XBox Shot 1 These two are **very** good PS3 shots: PS 3 Shot 1 PS 3 Shot 2

Thanks, it was too late last night. IMO it's easy to judge based on those screenshots. The PS3 version wins hands down when it comes to graphics.

@MikeB

Get $100 Off With PS2 Trade
http://www.ps3news.ca/01152007/00/ps3_deal_get_100_off_with_ps2_trade

May be interesting for people who lack the space for too many consoles, but still want to own a PS3.

Some things to take into consideration. Check if your PS2 favourites are running at 480i or at a much better 480p resolution. Through HDMI you may experience some jaggies with regard to 480i games, this is due to some pixels being flipped, this will likely be solved through a firmware update.

I have also read about plans to emulate the PS2 hardware on the PS3, which will allow for improved graphics in your classics. But that time hasn't come yet and probably will be far less backwards compatible (like the XBox 360) than the actual hardware found inside the PS3.

@MikeB

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Currently in the PC world probably a majority of people still owns a single core PC

Dual core X64s unit sales would still out number the combined X360, PS3 and Wii unit sales.

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@MikeB

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Have you noticed significant gains from many games when you went multi-core with your PC? So far I haven't.

An example , refer to
http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2006/11/02/Multi_core_in_the_Source_Engin/4.html

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@minator

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The 360 has 6 hardware threads but this is primarily to hide memory latency.

Due to in-order front end, SMT is desirable for minimizing pipeline wastage.

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That said, while SPEs don't have hardware threading support they can do it in software.

Software threads doesn't manifests itself as another logical processor.

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@minator

Quote:

Cell has shown similar speed ups on other problems, if this work can be used in games Cell won't just get a 2X advantage over Xenon, it'll be much, much bigger.

X360’s primary “stream processor” (AMD CTM or NVIDIA CUDA class stream processors) is the Xenos GPU. Like G80 and R520/R580, the Xenos GPU is equiped with 64 hardware threads.

RSX's G7x is not quite CTM nor CUDA class stream processor capable.

Last edited by Hammer on 15-Jan-2007 at 12:11 PM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

The Cell is very flexible, I believe you will eventually see it used in a much larger varierty of devices than you will see the Xenon.

So does AMD stream processors in the future the Fusion (CTM), future Radeon R6xx* (CTM), current Xenos and the current Radeon R5xx** (CTM).

*Soon to be marketed as AMD “Stream Processor II” in the enterprise market.
**Marketed as AMD “Stream Processor” in the enterprise market.

Xenos is equipped with a massive cache like feature in the form of 10MB EmDRAM.

Last edited by Hammer on 15-Jan-2007 at 12:41 PM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

I have also read about plans to emulate the PS2 hardware on the PS3, which will allow for improved graphics in your classics. But that time hasn't come yet and probably will be far less backwards compatible (like the XBox 360) than the actual hardware found inside the PS3.

The plans come from Sony as software emulation was the plan. However, Sony's software emulation was not ready for prime time and instead they decided to include PS2 hardware within the PS3.

@MikeB

Quote:

at 480i or at a much better 480p resolution

You should realize by now that 480i and 480p are the exact same resolution (between 640*480 and 852*480). The only difference is that it's split up into fields and combiner per frame in 480i. Unfortunately many PS2 games get frame rate issues in 480p - even in as simple a game as Guitar Hero 2, which is odd because none of the Xbox games had these issues (all NTSC Xboxes had 480p support).

That said there aren't really that many PS2 games that even support 480p in the first place. I thought it was a fair bit, but out of my 60+ games it's just a handful.

Quote:

But that time hasn't come yet and probably will be far less backwards compatible (like the XBox 360)

I think Sony are in a better position to write their own emulator. It'll still be a lot of work, but they have the intimate details of all their components, which I believe Microsoft don't (I might be wrong, but they were using NVidia hardware and most likely had to rely on their drivers - and now they're using an ATI chipset). As long as the list keeps growing for both machines we can all be happy

But yes, the original plan was a software emulator for PS3 and the hardware was added as an emergency solution. I'm sure their plan still is to get rid of the chips to lower the price of the hardware, and I guess that means that the chips in the first PS3s will eventually be no more than unmovable paper weights (that aren't that heavy in the first place).

Last edited by Trezzer on 15-Jan-2007 at 02:42 PM.

@AMiGR

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To be honest, I do not doubt that the Cell *architecture* is interesting or that it has potential, I just doubt that the version used in the PS3 can do all they claim it can do in *games*.

Why? It was primarily designed for games...

Also, what do you mean by "the version used in the PS3"? There are only 2 versions at the moment and both of these are or will be used in the PS3.

There is an enhanced double precision version but it's not due for another year yet.

@MikeB

You know your stuff very well as with most in depth articles you write. I wish we had more developers like you within the Amiga community. Most PS3 developers seem to have signed NDAs with Sony, which complicates PS3 discussion to a large degree.

I'm not a developer, but I am interested in getting into Cell development.

The PS3 is covered in NDAs but Cell isn't, there is a lot of very detailed info available from IBM.

@Trezzer
Quote:

You should realize by now that 480i and 480p are the exact same resolution (between 640*480 and 852*480). The only difference is that it's split up into fields and combiner per frame in 480i.

The splitting of frames means you only need to display half the frame at a time - and thus you only need half the frame rate.
Going from 720P to 1080i is only a 10% difference.

Quote:

That said there aren't really that many PS2 games that even support 480p in the first place. I thought it was a fair bit, but out of my 60+ games it's just a handful.

I don't think there are many 480p TVs. I've never seen an SDTV which supports it.

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@Trezzer

Currently downloading from XBox Live is ridiculously slow. 1-2 MB per minute or something.. The worst I have experienced so far. For a moment I thought the connection was gone after playing a demo, but it's still going although at a snail's pace.

BTW, at least based on the demo, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six 3 seems like a very nice game. I like the overall approach of taking cover and shooting better than in Gears of War. Although Gear of War was easier to get into, IMO Rainbow Six seems far more tactical and involving. Gears feels more a game for the small boys of the Beavis and Butthead type: "BOOM! cool! Huh, huhhuhuh."

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Jan-2007 at 07:00 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 15-Jan-2007 at 06:46 PM.

@minator

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Why? It was primarily designed for games...

Dunno, for me this architecture makes far more sense for media and scientific purposes.

Quote:

Also, what do you mean by "the version used in the PS3"? There are only 2 versions at the moment and both of these are or will be used in the PS3.

Ie. a Cell with 7 SPEs, 1-2 reserved.

Quote:

You know your stuff very well as with most in depth articles you write. I wish we had more developers like you within the Amiga community. Most PS3 developers seem to have signed NDAs with Sony, which complicates PS3 discussion to a large degree.

MikeB is not a developer.

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@minator

Quote:

Why? It was primarily designed for games...

Not to my knowledge. Games was one things considered for it but not the primary reason. Cell is a shorthand for Cell Broadband Engine Architecture. It was built off the Power4 architecture which wasn't designed for gaming but more general purpose. It's design if more for digital distribution systems and broadband applications. It was designed for more then just games. Reference Wikipedia it's a good write up.

The Xenon on the other hand was designed off of Power4 too but in it's design the primary, and likely only, would be gaming and entertainment.

The Cell in it's design is more general purpose focused then the Xenon. Reference MikeyB's frequent talking points on how the Cell will be in everything and the Xenon will not.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: Gears feels more a game for the small boys of the Beavis and Butthead type: "BOOM! cool! Huh, huhhuhuh."

So butthead you liked the game? heh heh

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@MikeB

Sony PS3s projected down, by external professional analysts..

Analysts Lower PS3 Sales Forecast
Japanese Analyst group Nomura Securities has issued a report that estimates Sony only reaching 75% of their fiscal year sales target for PS3. The Nomura Securities report also lowered their projected sales for 2008 and 2009 by nearly 40%2008 down from 16M to 10M and 2009's estimate dropping from 18M to 11M systems.

Supposedly Sony has missed the shipments this year, only 1M, and of those only 69% are in consumer hands.

@MikeB

Quote:

Gears feels more a game for the small boys of the Beavis and Butthead type: "BOOM! cool! Huh, huhhuhuh."

All game have dumb aspects. Resistance for example you shoot a target on a guy and the bullets track to that target. The Chimeron Bullseye and Bullseye II are incredibly stupid. Why go through all that effort and instead of the target make the gun shoot explosive weapons so you can kill in less shots? Award for worst weapon of the year!

@MikeB

Quote:

IMO Rainbow Six seems far more tactical and involving

It's like comparing Counter-Strike to Unreal Tournament. Two very different types of games. Belittling one kind of game audience in comparison to another tells more about your own lack of self-confidence than the people who enjoy the games.

I found Rainbow Six enjoyable too, but since I was never gripped enough by the previous games to bother to actually play through them, I'm not going to get the full game.

It's quite interesting that they're done in the same engine, though. It's quite amazing how much better Epic managed to make GoW look compared to Rainbow Six Vegas - even if Vegas is still a pretty great looking game.

Since you like Rainbow Six you should probably download the Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter demo (think it's listed as G.R.A.W.). They are great games, but I prefer something you can pick up and enjoy with a friend or just have a quick go at when you have some spare time.

Last edited by Trezzer on 15-Jan-2007 at 08:28 PM.

@BrianK
Quote:

The Cell in it's design is more general purpose focused then the Xenon

utter nonsense. calling cell general purpose is the same as calling the united states a true democracy - both are rediculous claims.

Quote:

Supposedly Sony has missed the shipments this year, only 1M, and of those only 69% are in consumer hands.

sony shipped 1 million to the states alone. making the ps3 the fastest selling sony console ever in the states. another half a million sold in japan.

its still way off their goal, but without any other confirmed number than these, its impossible to say if its a success or a failure, especially after such a short timespan. most likely its neither.

xbox360 sold like crap at first. being sold out in the states and europe while several shipsments was gathering dust in japan where they didnt sell at all. but people seem to forget easily.

this thread should have died atleast 50 pages ago, as most is poorly based claims and personal preferences.

/stone

@stone

Quote:

Quote: The Cell in it's design is more general purpose focused then the Xenon utter nonsense. calling cell general purpose is the same as calling the united states a true democracy - both are rediculous claims.

The statement is that the Cell was more general purpose in it's design then the Xenon. It's not ridiculous at all. Just consider you have Sony + Toshiba+IBM designing a processor not just for gaming but other users too. Sony looks to push this processor out to more then the PS3 but into TVs and other items. Someone, I forget who, announced a trimmed down Cell for portable phones is another example. Whereas you have Microsoft + IBM designing a processor specifically for their console and is not looking to push that processor into other devices. Many devices for Cell. 1 device for Xenon. So which is more general purpose? CELL

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Jan-2007 at 09:18 PM.

@stone

I don't believe the PS3 was the fastest selling Sony console ever in the states. I believe the PS2 beat it this Christmas.

As for comments you disagreed with they aren't mine but Japanese Analyst group Nomura Securities, as cited, so please don't ascribe them to me. Thank you.