@MikeB

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even at that insane resolution/framerate GT:HD still trumps PGR3 visually.

I've yet to see any images that show me definitively that GT:HD is visually better then PGR3. Invariably the screens that I've seen look better are static images not in game play. As for resolution this guy sounds like 1080 > 720 so 1080 wins... That's simply not the case . If a developer has to scale back textures and shadows to get to the 1080 level the game will look worse. GTHD's track and cars appear to be less texturized, the shadowing is less lifelike, and the reflections are less then PGR3. (Though one complain about PGR3 the reflections are hyper real they seem to last longer and be much more reflective then real life.)

Again 720p or 1080p? If you have a exactly the same level of details and a set smaller then 60" the end user will see very few if any difference. 30fps vs 60fps will make a difference on action the developer can rely less on blur effects generate the feeling of motion. Many sets do 720p or 1080i output. Few sets do 1080p and many of those, notably DLP and Plasma, do 1080p at 30fps. Doing a 1080p and having the set downscale to 1080i can be worse then doing a 720p and upscale. HDTV is one of those tricky things were it can be hard to say 1080p/60fps wins everytime because it does depend on what the end user has for equipment and source.

Winner of 2007 and 2008? The PS2 !

Looking at next-gen the lights are dark on Sony's ability to retain the 70% marketshare they enjoy with last gen, PS2.

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @treqie According to http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/27/nintendo_wii_sales In nextgen non-handheld consoles, 1. XBOX 360, 2. Wii 3. PS3.

Yeah, but I thought the thread was about sales around christmas only.

@BrianK

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As for the new 65nm CPU it is coming. Digitimes is reporting Q1 07 with consoles on the shelves close to the end of the first half of 07.

MS and Chartered (one of the companies making them) just announced a delay.

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The 1 year warranty is nice

Not really, they all have to be 2 years minimum in the EU

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Interesting graph of the rise and fall of the PS3 Ebay values:
Grey Market PS3 value

More PS3 kitchen foolishness.

@Hammer

Quote:

According to http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/27/nintendo_wii_sales In nextgen non-handheld consoles, 1. XBOX 360, 2. Wii 3. PS3

Other sites are now carrying related info #s are as follows
Xbox360 2M+
Wii 1.8M+
PS3 750K

As for next Christmas the PS3 could pull ahead it'll need to average 1M/month for the next year in order to accomplish that. PS2 bests that but can Sony change their $150 PS2 #s for $600 PS3s? Time will tell.

@BrianK

In related news:

Games Central isn't too impressed by BluRay vs HD-DVD - with images.

A Gamespot forum member has put a timeline of PS3 disappointments together.

It will be interesting whether Sony can pull off the promised one million PS3s per month that they've promised - and whether they will begin to sell again. I'm guessing that the second wave of titles should result in more sales, but the current number of sales isn't so bad considering the selection of launch titles.

Last edited by Trezzer on 03-Jan-2007 at 03:20 AM.

My gf bought me a copy of Catlevania: Portrait of Ruins for the new year! Happy new year everyone!

@AMiGR

Quote:

Quote: The Cell can do some graphics work better than the GPU can and take load off the GPU. Like? Vertex Shader work? Because I seriously doubt that the Cell is better than the GPU for Pixel Shader work.

Factor 5 claims they were able to implement every graphics effect they wanted at 1080p and the possibilities seem limitless. EA claims that even Fight Night Round 3, which improves graphically on the XBox 360 version uses less than 20% of the PS3's potential, they wouldn't claim the same with regard to the XBox 360 version.

A developer working on Heavenly Sword for the PS3 recently stated:

"Different platforms require different care, would not be surprised if ppl working on 360 and suddenly dropping their datasets onto RSX would not observe good numbers (and viceversa)
Now..I can't see how RSX, if used in the right way, should be so limited at vertex processing: in HS we easily render 2-2.5 MTriangles per frame at 30 fps without being VS limited and without making any use of CELL to speed up vertex shading and I know for sure that being more clever we could even go faster..(just using the GPU)"

There's a lot of untapped power in the PS3. Next to the impressive Cell processpr, every PS3 has a harddrive for quickly swapping out memory and store large amounts of speed critical data and every PS3 has a Blu-Ray drive able to stream large amounts of data including 1080p video. Of course to tap into all this potential takes time and effort.

@Trezzer

"Now for those people wondering what my setup is it is listed below for your pleasure.

Sharp Aquos 1080i capable display"

Considering the display device is also a crucial aspect of objectively comparing high definition video quality, they should also test the top quality display options available. Here being a high qualty 1080p True HD TV. At some point 1080p TVs will become common within households, to compare VHS videos to DVDs played on a 16 inch black and white TV wouldn't do much justice to the benefits DVDs provide.

@BrianK

Around 800K+ units for North America and another 500K+ units for Japan aren't bad figures for now. Globally the Nintendo Wii has probably outsold the XBox 360 this christmas, regarding the 200,000 more XBox 360 sales in the US compared to Nintendo Wii sales is not really objective as in this comparison the XBox 360 was given 3 more weeks of sales, for the Wii currently 1 week of sales equals more than 300,000 unit sales for the US.

For both the Nintendo Wii and Sony PS3 there was a higher demand than there was supply. The PS2 will come out on top this year as a whole and even experienced shortages, next year will be very interesting as the PS3 production has clearly increased.

Research firms still predict the PS3 will come out on top eventually:
http://www.mygamer.com/index.php?page=globalnews&mode=viewnews&id=2226

@BrianK

Quote:

Again 720p or 1080p? If you have a exactly the same level of details and a set smaller then 60" the end user will see very few if any difference. 30fps vs 60fps will make a difference on action the developer can rely less on blur effects generate the feeling of motion.

When the PC was dominant with regard to being the premier option for gaming things were so much easier to discuss. In the past people would simply agree that 1920x1080 @ 60fps is more impressive and demanding than 1024x600 @ 30fps. I agree that if you have an uncapable display this doesn't matter much, but in the past this wasn't much of an argument with regard to PC gaming.

Last edited by MikeB on 03-Jan-2007 at 11:09 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

but in the past this wasn't much of an argument with regard to PC gaming.

That is of course because that discussion would be "all other things being equal". Things aren't equal when you don't have the same amount of effects. This goes for PCs too but in discussions it is naturally implicit that it's with the same amount of effects. Look at any graphics card test and you'll see how they make sure that the same amount of AA is applied, that the same settings are used etc.

Quote:

EA claims that even Fight Night Round 3, which improves graphically on the XBox 360 version

Except the concensus is that it doesn't. It was even shown in the independent showdown at the Apollo.

Besides I believe the 20% quote was a general quote? (and of course marketoid BS).

Quote:

Considering the display device is also a crucial aspect of objectively comparing high definition video quality, they should also test the top quality display options available. Here being a high qualty 1080p True HD TV.

Since you still have the same amount of lines on screen (1920*1080 in both cases) you won't get anything out of using 1080p instead as long as the image isn't moving when you take the picture (that is: as long as there is no horizontal movement). Remember that 1080i and 1080p is the exact same resolution - the only difference is that one is interlaced and one is progressive. When a static image is displayed the visual quality is exactly the same.

The only difference you might see in a 1080i display is if you have a lot of movement in case the lines would be slightly displaced like below:
[............... ]
[ ...............]
[............... ]
[ ...............]

versus this on 1080p:
[...............]
[...............]
[...............]
[...............]

Just to make it absolutely clear: in most cases you'll be seeing this on 1080i:
[...............]
[...............]
[...............]
[...............]

Also know that the displacement above is merely for illustrative purposes and that the lines are not physically displaced. They are merely the result of two difference fields in the same frame.

Naturally this is extremely hard to make out considering the size of pixels on a screen like this and that is why experts say that you need really really good hardware to see the difference in the first place - and especially a very large tv (> 42")

In other words he did nothing wrong in the comparison. What would have been wrong is if he had used a 1080i capable set which had a native resolution of 720p, but he didn't.

Now that we have that out of the way you can go back and enjoy the screen photographs that I know you hold so dear

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Globally the Nintendo Wii has probably outsold the XBox 360 this christmas,

It's quite likely - we'll see when the NPD numbers are in. It's especially impressive considering how expensive the machine is. I guess people just aren't looking for raw power.

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For both the Nintendo Wii and Sony PS3 there was a higher demand than there was supply.

For Wii, yes. In Japan for PS3: yes. In the US PS3s have been sitting idly on store shelves as reported many places on the net.

Last edited by Trezzer on 03-Jan-2007 at 12:48 PM.

@Trezzer

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the US PS3s have been sitting idly on store shelves as reported many places on the net.

Exaggerated, for instance last night Futureshop.ca had 83 units in stock and is now sold out. Being in stock can be looked at as the glass being half full or half empthy, IMO your perspective is too negative.

IMO being in stock isn't bad, there still is a clear demand even above local retail value:
Ebay offering ending soon
Another one

@MikeB

Quote:

Exaggerated, for instance last night Futureshop.ca had 83 units in stock and is now sold out. Being in stock can be looked at as the glass being half full or half empthy, IMO your perspective is too negative.

I'm not really being negative about it. I'm just looking at the fact that Wiis are flying off shelves faster than they can be put there (even after Nintendo shipped 3 million units) and PS3s aren't. It doesn't mean that PS3s aren't in demand (clearly they are) but the demand doesn't seem to be as great as for Wiis - something I see as a good thing even for PS3 in the long run, since it might bring more non-gamers into the fold who might decide to get a 360 and a PS3 later on.

@MikeB

Quote:

My gf bought me a copy of Catlevania: Portrait of Ruins for the new year!

I bought the first Castlevania for the DS and it seriously rocked. I hear the new one is even better. Have fun with that

And happy new year to everyone from me too.

@Trezzer

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I'm just looking at the fact that Wiis are flying off shelves faster than they can be put there (even after Nintendo shipped 3 million units) and PS3s aren't.

The Nintendo Wii and Sony Playstation 2 are cheaper. I am sure many of those, I believe a majority of PS2 buyers would prefer to own a PS3. The PS3 pricing seems currently just about right considering the supply which is steadily improving. Let's imagine the PS3 to sell at only $300, what kind of madness would we have seen in the US then? I believe more people would have been angry about shortages.

Last edited by MikeB on 03-Jan-2007 at 01:28 PM.

The actual winner was the Wii, the underdog that no one thought would make it is now the number one selling games system this holiday season. Why?
It is cheap (making it easy on parent's pockets)
It has nostalgia factor (play all your old NES and SNES games all over again)
And biggest of all it has no launch time errors like the PS3 and X360 had (the system is basically a gamecube with upgrades).

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@Trezzer

Concerning HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray...Prior to the PS3 the winner as far as quality was the HD-DVD. Partially this was due to the quality of the players. Partially this was due to the use of MPEG-2 instead of VC-1. I've seen both. I've not compared them directly side by side there was about a day delay. They are very comperable. Either is better then DVD. If HD-DVD or Blu-Ray cost the same as DVD I'd definitely get it. Being HD-DVD costs 2-3x more and Blu-Ray at 2.5-3.5x more for a movie there's little on the market that feel I really need. As I have a 360 and will likely have a PS3 this summer I'll have both in my house and can compare. It actually may be Sony's attempt at pushing Blu-Ray effectively kills.


@Mike B
Quote:

Factor 5 claims they were able to implement every graphics effect they wanted at 1080p and the possibilities seem limitless. EA claims that even Fight Night Round 3, which improves graphically on the XBox 360 version uses less than 20% of the PS3's potential, they wouldn't claim the same with regard to the XBox 360 version.

It's argueable if the graphics are improved. As for potential we saw with the PS2 had a theoretical max potential performance of twice the Xbox, yet Xbox games were very equivalent to the PS2. The potential didn't translate into the actual. So, time will tell if developers can tap the other 80%. Unfortunately the Cell isn't a chip optimized for gaming where the Xenon is -- overall these are move equivalent systems then the PS2 vs Xbox.

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The PS2 will come out on top this year as a whole and even experienced shortages, next year will be very interesting as the PS3 production has clearly increased...Research firms still predict the PS3 will come out on top eventually

PS2 is expected to come out on top next year by research firms too. The PS3 will likely come out on top but most all of those research firms do not claim the PS3 will have the 70% of the market the PS2 enjoys. I'm very doubtfull it'll match the PS2 for market penetration. Microsoft and Nintendo have compelling systems, in different ways, and will both likely have greater marketshare then they did last time.

Quote:

When the PC was dominant with regard to being the premier option for gaming things were so much easier to discuss.

Yes because things were more equivalent. My comment was this guy championing 1080p and it's beauty is really nuts unless he's viewing more then 60" screens. Of course most homes don't have TVs of that size. Even I stuck to a small 50" set which is larger then most homes in the US.

Quote:

For both the Nintendo Wii and Sony PS3 there was a higher demand than there was supply.

This was true pre-Christmas. It's true for the Wii now. It's not true for the PS3 many are reporting PS3s on shelfs and there are some here at Target. Wii's are still flying off the shelfs and PS3s are leaving at a good clip but no where near the demand they once were. We see this too at Ebay where average prices have dropped to near console list prices.

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Let's imagine the PS3 to sell at only $300, what kind of madness would we have seen in the US then?

Yeah Sony would only lose 600 per console instead of 300... Lots of madness as they scramble to save their company! Let's imagine Xbox360s at $59 what madness would we see in the US then? Nice pipe dream guesses but little to no relationship with what's going on.

@Trezzer

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For Wii, yes. In Japan for PS3: yes. In the US PS3s have been sitting idly on store shelves as reported many places on the net.

LOL, like where??? I've been to just about every big name chain as well as smaller stores in a 50 mile radius of Charlotte and there have been empty shelves with "Sold Out" signs where the PS3's were suppose to go. In every single store, there were Wii's and XBox 360's for sale on the shelf and in plentiful supply, but no PS3 in sight. I've also had friends checking for them from various points across the state with none found on the shelves anywhere.

Sorry, I'm not trying to rain on your pissing contest with Mike, but that statement was just laughable, at least from where I live. I've just now heard of reports (yesterday) that a local store about 30 miles away had a stock of 8 on the shelf, the first time since it's debut that stock was available for the shelf there. I just hope those people who bought them to put on ebay and local paper ads get stuck with them and can't sell them, and in fact, I hope they loose money on them.

What's even more laughable is that this "mine is bigger" thread is 30+ pages long and says the same thing over and over on each page....


Quote:

I'm not really being negative about it. I'm just looking at the fact that Wiis are flying off shelves faster than they can be put there (even after Nintendo shipped 3 million units) and PS3s aren't. It doesn't mean that PS3s aren't in demand (clearly they are) but the demand doesn't seem to be as great as for Wiis - something I see as a good thing even for PS3 in the long run, since it might bring more non-gamers into the fold who might decide to get a 360 and a PS3 later on.

Not in the US (in my area at least). Every single store I've been to during the holidays has had a full shelf of Wii's available.

Last edited by herewegoagain on 03-Jan-2007 at 03:48 PM.

@BrianK

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Yeah Sony would only lose 600 per console instead of 300... Lots of madness as they scramble to save their company! Let's imagine Xbox360s at $59 what madness would we see in the US then? Nice pipe dream guesses but little to no relationship with what's going on

I just mean, they are selling these units below production/distribution costs. Multiple companies have spent billions of USD and many manyears on development. IMO people should just relax a little, if you don't like the PS3's price tag then get a cheaper Nintendo Wii or Sony PS2 instead, IMO nothing to be angry about you will likely be able to afford a PS3 with some blockbuster games eventually.